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Forums - Politics Discussion - Catalonia declares independence. Puigdemont free to roam Belgium.

 

Who do you support?

Spain 139 59.40%
 
Catalonia 95 40.60%
 
Total:234
Player2 said:

EU = Germany. And Germany blocked a referendum in Bavaria this year. 

Results of the 2015 Catalonian elections:

Independentists (Junts pel Sí + CUP) = 47.8% of the votes. Probably a bit more if we add the parties that didn't have enough votes to have representation in the parliament, but still below 50%.

Yet they had a majority vote on their parlament. It makes me doubt what you are saying.

Also, EU does not equal Germany. The many states are free to leave just like the UK did. This is the difference between beeing in a union from free will aka the will of the people and not because you are in it due to intimidation and what a king or queen unilaterally decided.

 

Spain is not a union, it's an empire. The civil wars will keep happening because of that. How many more need to die until castellans understand that this isn't the middle ages anymore? Monarchy is obsolete.

Last edited by Nem - on 28 October 2017

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Nem said:
Goodnightmoon said:

You are so painfully missinformed and out of reality that is not even fun, don't even know where to beggin.

I am not. In the end of the day, what matters is what the people of Catalunya want. Not what Spain wants or what motivations there are.

The Will of the People of Catalunya is ALL that matters. And given how the central government blocked a referendum, the writing is in the wall.

You, like many Portuguese, have a lot of resentment against Spain sadly, that doesn't let you think clearly. 

You don't seem to realize how big of a problem would be if Catalonia goes while most of its population wants to stay, which is what every inform and poll says will happen, neither do you seem to understand the huge manipulation going on over them, they don't really know the consequences of independence, nobody told them, they believe they are gonna get richer soon which is laughable watching how 1500 companies have left Catalonia in few weeks and considering that like 70% of their exportations comes to Spain. Even famous British historian John H. Elliot said yesterday that Catalan people has been told a completely false story for ages, They are told a different version of history and they are highly manipulated into believing everything wrong that happens to them comes from Spain and everything good is because they are awesome, is pathetic when you actually live here and understand what's happening, they were governed for 23 years by one of the most corrupts politics of Spain (Pujol) because they wanted, after knowing this guy (and all his family) were stealing catalans for decades they are still so blind that they keep saying Spain is corrupt unlike Catalonia, right... just like many catalans were shitting about Spain for selling weapons to bad countries while 25% of those weapons come from Catalonia... they are driven by blind nationalism.

You are even talking about Castilians instead of Spaniards, why? I'm from Valencia, we used to belong to the Aragon Kingdom just like Catalonia, we even speak Catalan too and have it as an oficial language, yet almost everyone here completely supports the union of Spain, and so does people from Balearic Islands and Aragon, so what are you talking about Castilians? Do you think we are still in the 18th century or what?

Last edited by Goodnightmoon - on 28 October 2017

Nem said:
Player2 said:

EU = Germany. And Germany blocked a referendum in Bavaria this year. 

Results of the 2015 Catalonian elections:

Independentists (Junts pel Sí + CUP) = 47.8% of the votes. Probably a bit more if we add the parties that didn't have enough votes to have representation in the parliament, but still below 50%.

Yet they had a majority vote on their parlament. It makes me doubt what you are saying.

Also, EU does not equal Germany. The many states are free to leave just like the UK did. This is the difference between beeing in a union from free will aka the will of the people and not because you are in it due to intimidation and what a king or queen unilaterally decided.

Our electoral system sucks butt. You can see the number of seats in the same link: Junts pel Sí + CUP = 73. The rest = 62.

Germany puts the money so it gets to dictate how things are done in the EU. Those who don't like it are free to leave, like you said.



Nem said:
Goodnightmoon said:

You are so painfully missinformed and out of reality that is not even fun, don't even know where to beggin.

I am not. In the end of the day, what matters is what the people of Catalunya want. Not what Spain wants or what motivations there are.

The Will of the People of Catalunya is ALL that matters. And given how the central government blocked a referendum, the writing is in the wall.

Except Catalonia (and not Catalunya. In Spanish it's Cataluña) is part of Spain so Spain has obviously a say into this matter. If you want to break up a country, EVERYONE in the country should have a say. And the Spanish people including a lot of people in Catalonia are against it.

The referendum was ILLEGAL, how is it that you don't understand that? If all it took was for people to say something to make it happen, the world could not exist. Cause there is ALWAYS someone somewhere that disagrees with the way things are.

I don't like everything that is decided in my country so maybe I should demand my city to become independent? After that, I may not like what other people in my city say or do so maybe the portion of my city should become independent from the rest of the city?

Try to break up New York from the US, or Paris from France or Tokyo from Japan and you'll get EXACTLY the same result as you see in Spain. The legal government of the country will not allow it and with good reason.



CrazyGamer2017 said:
Nem said:

I am not. In the end of the day, what matters is what the people of Catalunya want. Not what Spain wants or what motivations there are.

The Will of the People of Catalunya is ALL that matters. And given how the central government blocked a referendum, the writing is in the wall.

Except Catalonia (and not Catalunya) is part of Spain so Spain has obviously a say into this matter. If you want to break up a country, EVERYONE in the country should have a say. And the Spanish people including a lot of people in Catalonia are against it.

I disagree. That would essentially mean that no place would ever become independent, as the rest of the country would consistently outvote them.



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VGPolyglot said:
CrazyGamer2017 said:

Except Catalonia (and not Catalunya) is part of Spain so Spain has obviously a say into this matter. If you want to break up a country, EVERYONE in the country should have a say. And the Spanish people including a lot of people in Catalonia are against it.

I disagree. That would essentially mean that no place would ever become independent, as the rest of the country would consistently outvote them.

The only good reason to become independent is when the country you're part of is a dictatorship that suppresses your rights and you wish to be free and treated as a human being. Other than that, if you wish to destroy or break up a country, everyone in the country should have a say.

This is not the case in Spain, in Catalonia or anywhere in the EU. Catalonians enjoy the same rights as any other EU citizens and their bid for independence is out of ignorance. Only the Catalonian government stands to win from independence as statehood would dramatically increase their powers but the people would lose as independence means no rights to travel across Spain freely, or the EU if they are kicked out of Europe. In the 21st century at a time where union and globalisation is the new paradigm shift, independence is dumb and independence inside a modern system as the EU is irresponsible and misguided.



CrazyGamer2017 said:
VGPolyglot said:

I disagree. That would essentially mean that no place would ever become independent, as the rest of the country would consistently outvote them.

The only good reason to become independent is when the country you're part of is a dictatorship that suppresses your rights and you wish to be free and treated as a human being. Other than that, if you wish to destroy or break up a country, everyone in the country should have a say.

This is not the case in Spain, in Catalonia or anywhere in the EU. Catalonians enjoy the same rights as any other EU citizens and their bid for independence is out of ignorance. Only the Catalonian government stands to win from independence as statehood would dramatically increase their powers but the people would lose as independence means no rights to travel across Spain freely, or the EU if they are kicked out of Europe. In the 21st century at a time where union and globalisation is the new paradigm shift, independence is dumb and independence inside a modern system as the EU is irresponsible and misguided.

So, in other words no country becomes independent then, because the dictators would brutally repress independence movements.



Player2 said:

Replace autonomous regions with States. That's why I said "pretty much".

Yeah, their absolutely not equivalents in this case ... 

"in matters that affect them directly, the states defend their interests at the federal level through the Bundesrat ("Federal Council", the upper house of the German Federal Parliament)" 

By comparison the Generalitat of Catalonia has powers that is almost like a US state ... 



Ka-pi96 said:

It's not SELF-determination if they don't get to decide for themselves...

They are already AUTONOMOUS, which is in and by itself UNFAIR to other regions of Spain that are not autonomous.

Why do they have to act like spoiled brats or special snowflakes chosen by God or something and having divine rights to some imaginary independence?

They are free people, no one is telling them how to live their lives, they have the right to do what they want but they do NOT have the right to break up a country cause they feel like special snowflakes too good to be part of Spain.

How does independence even make sense in the 21st century? Besides isolating themselves what do they hope to achieve? Is the average Catalan citizen not going to have to work to pay his bill anymore if Catalonia becomes independent? Will crime disappear overnight if Catalonia is independent? Will people stop aging and die in an independent Catalonia?

Independence made sense in the past when war was everywhere and land got invaded and people were made into slaves and all that stuff but nowadays in Europe? What a lack of vision, of understanding of the modern world of them.



CrazyGamer2017 said:
Ka-pi96 said:

It's not SELF-determination if they don't get to decide for themselves...

They are already AUTONOMOUS, which is in and by itself UNFAIR to other regions of Spain that are not autonomous.

Why do they have to act like spoiled brats or special snowflakes chosen by God or something and having divine rights to some imaginary independence?

They are free people, no one is telling them how to live their lives, they have the right to do what they want but they do NOT have the right to break up a country cause they feel like special snowflakes too good to be part of Spain.

How does independence even make sense in the 21st century? Besides isolating themselves what do they hope to achieve? Is the average Catalan citizen not going to have to work to pay his bill anymore if Catalonia becomes independent? Will crime disappear overnight if Catalonia is independent? Will people stop aging and die in an independent Catalonia?

Independence made sense in the past when war was everywhere and land got invaded and people were made into slaves and all that stuff but nowadays in Europe? What a lack of vision, of understanding of the modern world of them.

Um, Spain is entirely composed of autonomous communities:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_communities_of_Spain