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Forums - General Discussion - My dog killed a neighbors cat! Not sure what to do

Hiku said:
smroadkill15 said:
Anytime we go outside in the front yard the dog is chained up with a metal leash with no way of getting away. There is no way for him to get out the back yard either, unless the gate isn't closed all the way, which sadly was the cause of this. Anytime we go on a walk we never let him off the leash because he will take off. We don't do these things because we are worried he will attack someone. I've never seen him even growl at a person before, let alone bite someone. We do it to protect him from other dogs, cars, and not chase smaller animals.

I'm thinking about getting a long rope for him in the back yard so he doesn't escape if the gate is left open or buy an electrical fence.

Electric fence seems excessive, and the fence would still have a gate that could accidentally be left open, right? That's the main issue that needs to be resolved for your neighbours sake. A long rope or a muzzle may do it. Also may be a good idea to ask what the neighbour thinks.

The gate would still be shut of course. Only reason I'm not a fan of the rope idea is because I'v had this dog on a long rope before and he got tangled up which could cause some serious damage if not addressed right away. This dog is kind of a spaze sometimes (most huskeys are) so this would probably be an issue. I don't think a muzzle is nessary as well. He doesn't bite or even bark at people, dogs, or other small animals. I think if he wears a muzzle it gives off the wrong vibe and people might be more afraid of him because they think he will bite. 



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Hiku said:
smroadkill15 said:

The gate would still be shut of course. Only reason I'm not a fan of the rope idea is because I'v had this dog on a long rope before and he got tangled up which could cause some serious damage if not addressed right away. This dog is kind of a spaze sometimes (most huskeys are) so this would probably be an issue. I don't think a muzzle is nessary as well. He doesn't bite or even bark at people, dogs, or other small animals. I think if he wears a muzzle it gives off the wrong vibe and people might be more afraid of him because they think he will bite. 

But someone could forget to close it, I mean. So that wouldn't really change the situation from what happened the other day, would it?
Muzzle would be in order to put cat owning neighbours mind at ease. And possibly for those who have small children since they may worry. I was thinking when he's unsupervised in your front yard, and not when you take him for walks, because then you have him supervised. The only people who would interact with him in your front yard should be friends of yours, and if you tell them why he's wearing it, they should understand.

That is why we will have the eletrical fence to hopefully deter him from even checking to see if the gate is open because that is sometimes the first thing he does. We will just have to check around the corner before we let him in the backyard now. We talked about it and decided to not have him chained up in the front yard, at least for awhile. Gonna avoid the situation all together. 



sc94597 said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:

Although it can happen, as I wrote too, rabbits aren't the typical cat prey. And as YOU wrote, unowned cats are the most regular and mass killers, not owned ones, even if left free to roam. Pets should never be abandoned, as they can become more destructive than true wild animals, but this applies even more to dogs, as feral dogs in most countries are responsible for most livestock kills for which wolves and other wild predators are wrongly blamed.
Those kills estimates roughly imply that there should be more than 10 millions, using the lowest numbers, and up to 70 millions using the highest ones, un-owned free-ranging domestic cats in the USA. I don't know if this is possible or not, each predator needs a large hunting area, but USA are very big. And if the number of those cats is actually unsustainable, it means that they have a smaller area than what a true wild cat needs to be in balance with the environment.
But this has nothing to do with free-ranging owned cats.

Rabbits are very common for cats to eat, and tear apart while they're doing so. Sure they aren't the most desired prey, cats prefer birds and mice, but they still love to kill, play with, and eat rabbits also. 

The study said the majority comes from unowned cats (which is defined as cats which don't ever go into somebody's house, even if they feed them. 

"Although our results suggest that owned cats have relatively less impact than un-owned cats, owned cats still cause substantial wildlife mortality (Table 2); simple solutions to reduce mortality caused by pets, such as limiting or preventing outdoor access, should be pursued. Efforts to better quantify and minimize mortality from all anthropogenic threats are needed to increase sustainability of wildlife populations."

"
The magnitude of wildlife mortality caused by cats that we report here far exceeds all prior estimates. Available evidence suggests that mortality from cat predation is likely to be substantial in all parts of the world where free-ranging cats occur. This mortality is of particular concern within the context of steadily increasing populations of owned cats, the potential for increasing populations of un-owned cats12, and an increasing abundance of direct and indirect mortality sources that threaten wildlife in the United States and globally."

Furthermore, all unowned domesticated cats were either previously owned and neglected (not fed) or descend from previously owned cats that were allowed to roam and have babies. 

Those are just a few studies, there isn't general scientists consensus.
Moreover, you can see there are major flaws in them: they don't take into account the hundreds mice and rats a single cat kills during its life, and rats and mice, if let multiplicate without control are far more harmful for the environment, including, directly, as they kill their babies, and indirectly, as they destroy resources, birds and rabbits. Another flaw is that they don't consider that once a large enough population of feral cats exists, contribution of free-roaming domesticated cats to their growth becomes minimal, particularly now that more domesticated cats are neutered than in the past, and that abandoning them is frowned upon a lot more than in the past. Abandoning them is anyway a negative factor, this is totally true. Another flaw is that those studies seem to not mention that feral cats need to hunt every day to survive and thrive, while free-roaming well fed domesticated cats don't need it and often don't want to do it either, being lazier than feral ones. Most of them by the way rarely go very far from home, and many don't even go out every day.

In my town cats are generally loved and fed and while they often kill birds, they never endangered their species as a whole, it was only seagulls growing to an eccessive number that started seriously endangering other birds.

Again about rabbits, those in those videos all were either dwarf or young ones. My family owned tens, maybe hundreds cats in the last 40 years, and for many years we bred normal sized rabbits as livestock, and despite often some of them managed to escape, it happened only once that a cat of ours killed a rabbit, and a young and little one, adults always were unharmed. As I previously wrote, also some the neighbours' normal sized adult rabbits often escape, and neither my cats, nor the others in the neighbourhood ever harm them. But a rat-sized adult rabbit, moving quickly enough to be an interesting prey, surely wouldn't be safe, that's true.



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Ka-pi96 said:
smroadkill15 said:

It's real. 

No different than someone posting about politics or other unrelated topics. Plus I want to stay anonymous and would rather not face the scrutiny of facebook. 

Apart from the fact that like you, plenty of other people have posted about similar things, wouldn`t it be odder for someone to do a fake post like this on a video game forum than for it to be real?

The fact of the matter is that it is extraordinarily weird for a person in this situation to turn to an Internet gaming forum on this topic. Far less weird for an independent third party.

But I never underestimate people on the internet making up stories to get attention.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

I have a feeling you may have your dog put down and may not be allowed to ow dogs anymore. Jesus imagine if that was a small child or baby in that neighbours garden that got killed. You would be facing jail time.



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Pyro as Bill said:
Aeolus451 said:

 

"For instance, from 1999 to 2014...."

"....Meanwhile, 486 people died from dog attacks and 1,163 people died from attacks by other mammals, such as cows or horses. About 4.5 million dog bites occur each year."

Dogs are ranked 3rd highest in lethal animal attacks to humans in the us from the total of deaths caused by animal attacks that occured between 1999 to 2007

 

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/17/health/animal-attacks-statistics/index.html

CNN reporting actual real news for once....

 

Pet cats aren't considered feral just because they go outside.

Any stats for how many lives have been saved/helped by dogs over the past few thousand years?

You can dig it up if you want. My point wasn't that dogs are bad but the medium to large sized dogs shouldn't be getting away from their owners because they're a legitimate threat to people when they get loose.



sc94597 said:
Aeolus451 said:

The cat owner didn't have any blame in that. The cat was in the owner's yard and it's normal for a cat to be outside at least sometimes. A big dog running around loose is not normal or safe. 

I've owned a turtle (they stink), iguana (kinda of a boring pet), birds (very noisy), dogs (great pets when they're small or medium)and cats (can be great or can be a nightmare depending on it's personality). The most damaging of them to my property was the dogs but it wasn't alot or like the extremes that you might see on tv. Cats and dogs are my favorite kind of pets because of the wide ranging degree and depth to their personalities. 

You obviously hate cats so I doubt that you're being objective. We've both stated our opinions on it so let's just agree to disagree.

I don't hate cats. I hate people who don't take care of their animals properly, which often includes cat owners. I have owned and loved many cats in my life, in fact they were my first pets. If I let them outdoors I would've been aware of the risks to their health and would also be responsible for any damages my cats caused to other people. But who am I to argue with selfish people who think that it is okay for their cats to be loose, damage wildlife, damage people's property, kill people's pets, and risk their own lives?

Dogs can be more destructive of their owner's property, yes, but rarely will a dog get into another person's house, while it is a common occurance with outdoor cats. 

Also it is ridiculous to assume that the cat somehow was trained to stay in the owner's lawn. The cat likely roamed quite often. That it was on the owner's property makes very little difference when just about anything has access to it. Just as I would be partly at fault for leaving the basement window open and if the cat killed my conure (an animal just as intelligent and loving as the cat) so is the owner of this cat partly responsible for his cat's death by allowing it to live a risky lifestyle. 

Normal does not make it right. As an owner of an animal you are primarily responsible for its safety. If it dies from trauma, there was always something you could've done differently. If it is a risk you are willing to make, so be it, but that was a decision you made - own up to it and learn. If you don't understand that, then you are probably one of the people who don't deserve to own living things. 


You must hate alot of cat owners and I won't take your word on that you like cats. Your bias with them says otherwise. You seriously can't expect what the majority of cat owners do to change just because you want them to. That's your opinion and it's not the social norm. Also, this a big strawman where you tried to blame the cat instead of the dog and it's owner for what happened. It distracts from the problem itself. Even from your own source, it says that the feral cats do the vast majority of the damage. That's more of a problem with people abandoning their unwanted cat or kittens than people letting their pet cat roam around. 



Aeolus451 said:

You must hate alot of cat owners and I won't take your word on that you like cats. Your bias with them says otherwise. You seriously can't expect what the majority of cat owners do to change just because you want them to. That's your opinion and it's not the social norm. Also, this a big strawman where you tried to blame the cat instead of the dog and it's owner for what happened. It distracts from the problem itself. Even from your own source, it says that the feral cats do the vast majority of the damage. That's more of a problem with people abandoning their unwanted cat or kittens than people letting their pet cat roam around. 

By that logic, you must hate dogs, because you don't think they should free-roam. Seriously, read what you're typing. It sounds like something a child, would say when I tell them they can't take their pet cat to school "you must hate cats ... I won't take your word on that you like cats". 

In my source it says ~10 billion birds/year are killed by unowned cats (which aren't the same thing as feral; unowned is defined as not allowed in the house) and ~1 billion birds/year are killed by owned cats per year. The mammal proportions are similar. Just because unowned cats are worse, does not mean the effect of the owned ones is insigificant, which is why the study said that they recommend reducing how often the cat is outside. 

Furthermore, if I were a sleazball scum, who actually hated cats, I would prefer that they live outdoors, so that they could die horrible premature deaths from disease or trauma. It is the person who wants to be irresponsible with them that truly has no love for pets. So I recommend reevaluing the situation, rather than simplistically presuming "You must hate cats", lol. 

But alas, I doubt you will actually address the harms and risks of letting cats free-roam. I wonder who is the one with the bias here? 



Alby_da_Wolf said:
sc94597 said:

Rabbits are very common for cats to eat, and tear apart while they're doing so. Sure they aren't the most desired prey, cats prefer birds and mice, but they still love to kill, play with, and eat rabbits also. 

The study said the majority comes from unowned cats (which is defined as cats which don't ever go into somebody's house, even if they feed them. 

"Although our results suggest that owned cats have relatively less impact than un-owned cats, owned cats still cause substantial wildlife mortality (Table 2); simple solutions to reduce mortality caused by pets, such as limiting or preventing outdoor access, should be pursued. Efforts to better quantify and minimize mortality from all anthropogenic threats are needed to increase sustainability of wildlife populations."

"
The magnitude of wildlife mortality caused by cats that we report here far exceeds all prior estimates. Available evidence suggests that mortality from cat predation is likely to be substantial in all parts of the world where free-ranging cats occur. This mortality is of particular concern within the context of steadily increasing populations of owned cats, the potential for increasing populations of un-owned cats12, and an increasing abundance of direct and indirect mortality sources that threaten wildlife in the United States and globally."

Furthermore, all unowned domesticated cats were either previously owned and neglected (not fed) or descend from previously owned cats that were allowed to roam and have babies. 

Those are just a few studies, there isn't general scientists consensus.
Moreover, you can see there are major flaws in them: they don't take into account the hundreds mice and rats a single cat kills during its life, and rats and mice, if let multiplicate without control are far more harmful for the environment, including, directly, as they kill their babies, and indirectly, as they destroy resources, birds and rabbits. Another flaw is that they don't consider that once a large enough population of feral cats exists, contribution of free-roaming domesticated cats to their growth becomes minimal, particularly now that more domesticated cats are neutered than in the past, and that abandoning them is frowned upon a lot more than in the past. Abandoning them is anyway a negative factor, this is totally true. Another flaw is that those studies seem to not mention that feral cats need to hunt every day to survive and thrive, while free-roaming well fed domesticated cats don't need it and often don't want to do it either, being lazier than feral ones. Most of them by the way rarely go very far from home, and many don't even go out every day.

In my town cats are generally loved and fed and while they often kill birds, they never endangered their species as a whole, it was only seagulls growing to an eccessive number that started seriously endangering other birds.

Again about rabbits, those in those videos all were either dwarf or young ones. My family owned tens, maybe hundreds cats in the last 40 years, and for many years we bred normal sized rabbits as livestock, and despite often some of them managed to escape, it happened only once that a cat of ours killed a rabbit, and a young and little one, adults always were unharmed. As I previously wrote, also some the neighbours' normal sized adult rabbits often escape, and neither my cats, nor the others in the neighbourhood ever harm them. But a rat-sized adult rabbit, moving quickly enough to be an interesting prey, surely wouldn't be safe, that's true.

Cat populations can actually be controlled at particular level to kill the right amount of rats and mice without causing the extinction of other species. But these very same cats shouldn't be pets. The cats can carry the same diseases as rats and mice, and then end up being the one transmitting them to humans, which kind of eliminates their purpose. The contribution of domesticated cats is not neglible. As you can read in the study, they used a multicollinear correlation model, and the variable of "unowned cats" was linear dependent of the "owned cats" one. Remember, not all unowned cats are feral. Many are fed by humans, just not allowed to live in the house. 

From your profile it looks like you live in Italy. The environmental consequences of any species depends on whether or not they are invasive. Domesticated cats have lived in Europe for thousands of years. The same is not true of North America and Australia. 



Nogamez said:
I have a feeling you may have your dog put down and may not be allowed to ow dogs anymore. Jesus imagine if that was a small child or baby in that neighbours garden that got killed. You would be facing jail time.

A. The dogs not getting put down because it killed a cat. Btw it's not my dog so people need to stop saying that.

B. He's not aggessive toward kids or adults. The mailman even likes our dog because it's probably the only dog on the block that doesn't bark at him.

C. It would be pretty irresponsible of any parents for them to leave a child or baby unattended at 9:30 at night.