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Forums - Politics Discussion - Trump Announces Ban on Transgender People in US Military

 

You support this?

No. 206 29.68%
 
Yes. 311 44.81%
 
^ What the hell is wrong ... 177 25.50%
 
Total:694
Aeolus451 said:
TallSilhouette said:

Pick one.

Both. i should have put a "tend to" in the upper one for clarity's sake. Pointing out something like that is not gonna destroy my points though. You're welcome to have at it though.

It kinda does though since you agree they don't all have mental issues (we're progresssing), then there's no valid reason to kick out trans people who are capable, willing and don't suffer from mental issues.



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Aeolus451 said:
mizzou_guy said:

Can you provide some links or proof of some kind to backup the part I bolded?

Condsidering how recently they were allowed in, there's no studies on anything close I could use but to find out, there would have to an internal investigation of some kind to find out. 

The reason why I said that though is because it's being done in businesses to some extent. Some companies hire people based on their identity rather than their qualifications. So I could see the same with the military if their bosses told them they need to let in more trans people. The military has been known to lighten entry requirements based on their needs like being at war or a republican is in office. So it's not outlandish for me to say that happened to some extent. i would like to see studies done with trans and the military so there's more data on it so we could settle this sort of stuff once and for all. 

So basically your argument comes down to, "I have no proof this is my opinion".  You state things as if they are fact but they are just your opinion.  You say they have high degree of this or that but you have nothing to back it up.  You paint a broad stroke on them as if you have any really knowledge and you make assumptions without any evidence.  

Next you make up your own story about a boss letting trans in because they are trans instead of meeting the same requirement as any other solider.  The reason you probably will not see any studies about trans in the military because they are just like Blacks, White Asian, Gay, Lesbian you name it.  Your whole opinion as painting them all as having some mental disorder is the classic way people have painted any group to not be included.  Since the military already have it's standards on what it takes to be in service all the things you listed would already be address.  

The main issue is that until President Trump actually bring out supporting information for his ban instead of that garbage he put on Twitter everything said is just empty assumption on very little real knowledge.



When it came to the military record for Trump, he chickened out.

He's an all-American turkey



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

mizzou_guy said:
Aeolus451 said:

Trans is different than a sexual orientation. They had gender dysphoria and were quiet about it but they weren't technically trans. They acted and looked like the gender they were born as so a good chunk of the problems that would come from trans being in the military wouldn't happen. I get what you're saying but my points still stand. 

I didn't mention sexual orientation.  These people were transgender while in the military, but due to don't ask don't tell, they were not able to be themselves at work.  Not revealing something at work doesn't mean you aren't that person.  For example, I'm gay, but I don't tell everyone at work I'm gay, but that doesn't make me less gay.

The worst part about this is that after don't ask, don't tell was repealed, these people felt safe about coming out.  Now, the new administration is suddenly saying they're not allowed to be in the military.  Well, once you've outed yourself, there's not shoving the secrets back into the closet, so it's almost like an entrapment scenario.

The main point of posting that video is to display that there are transgender people who contribute greatly to our military.  Both of those individuals had highly respected roles and received recognition for their work.  Their transgender identity never interfered with either of their jobs.  The only time it became a factor was when other people made their private lives their business.

That's why I mentioned orientation. It's related to this but different. A person who has gender dysphoria disorder doesn't mean they are a trans person by default. Unlike a gay person, there's a lot more choice involved in this. A trans person is someone who wants to or is transitioning into the gender they identify as. Transitioning is one of the most popular way for a person with gender dysphoria to cope with the disorder or alleviate the symtoms of the disorder but it's not the only way from I what I understand of it.  I think the military's problem is with the ones choosing to transition, not necessarily the ones with the dysphoria. I'm not 100% on where they drew the line before but I'll check up on it if this keeps going on. 

I'm not saying that trans people or people with gender dysphoria wouldn't be of any contribution at all or of great contribution to the military but there's no real pragmatic solution with incorperating them into the military if they choose to transition or transitioned before or walk around as their oppisite sex.  

Personally, I don't care if a person with gender dysphoria joins the military or is in the military just so long as they are not transitioning or dress as their oppisite sex. I think that's what they did before obama changed the ban. Do what you want when you're out.



Hiku said:
Aeolus451 said:

I'm not generalizing.

[5 seconds later...]

They were allowed in because they were trans, not because they were qualified per se. A regular person who has their level of mental health issues wouldn't be allowed in.

"Generalize - make a general or broad statement by inferring from specific cases."

How it is you know that every transgender person with "that level" of mental issues is not turned away at the door like everyone else who fails the psychological evaluation?

 

I never said I don't every generalize. *shrugs To answer your question, I don't know but I can have an opinion on what I think happens in that situation regardless if it's backed by data or not. 

Hiku said:
Aeolus451 said:

Condsidering how recently they were allowed in, there's no studies on anything close I could use but to find out, there would have to an internal investigation of some kind to find out. 

The reason why I said that though is because it's being done in businesses to some extent. Some companies hire people based on their identity rather than their qualifications. So I could see the same with the military if their bosses told them they need to let in more trans people.

So because it's supposedly done in some businesses, the recruitment process for a soldier that may have to deal with life and death decisions on a daily basis must be the same? That's some interesting logic there. And you said it for certain. Not "I think", but "they ARE allowed in because they are transgender, not because they were qualified per se".

That's a ridiculous assertion to make with no evidence.
Transgender people go through the same mental and physical evaluation process as everyone else unless there's any evidence pointing to the contrary.


Do I really need to put "I think" or "in my opinion" in the front of every sentence that consists of an opinion you don't like? I try to treat everyone as though they are intelligent enough to figure out when something I'm saying is an opinion or factual. People seem to nit pick more when they can't see the forest for the trees or they are trying to avoid the point. 

It's not supposedly done in business. It is. There's many cases of progessives and feminists complaining that businesses don't have enough women or minorities in that workplace or type of job which in turn often forces those employers to hire people from those groups for the sake of diversity. You can't achieve more diversity without picking people with that in mind. Why wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that this sort of thing works the same way in the military when the no trans ban is lifted by a progressive?  Again I have no proof on the military doing that. 



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Hiku said:
Aeolus451 said:

I never said I don't every generalize. *shrugs To answer your question, I don't know but I can have an opinion on what I think happens in that situation regardless if it's backed by data or not. 


Do I really need to put "I think" or "in my opinion" in the front of every sentence that consists of an opinion you don't like? I try to treat everyone as though they are intelligent enough to figure out when something I'm saying is an opinion or factual. People seem to nit pick more when they can't see the forest for the trees or they are trying to avoid the point. 

An opinion is "I don't like this movie." Saying "They were allowed in because they were trans, not because they were qualified per se." is not an opinion. That's a statement.
As if you read it somewhere. Which is very possible considering sites like Infowars, reporting on things such as aliens, and Hilary running a child sex cartell in the basement of a pizzeria, have a big following.

I

 Do you not know the definition of statement? It's definitely not " meant to be taken factually". Here it is for ya to remind you. "A definite or clear expression of something in speech or writing". A statement is still an opinion. Also, you're singling out sentences that were meant to be read with other sentences. It changes their meaning without the rest of it. 

My point about my stated opinions still being opinions still stands. 

Hiku said:

 

It's not supposedly done in business. It is. There's many cases of progessives and feminists complaining that businesses don't have enough women or minorities in that workplace or type of job which in turn often forces those employers to hire people from those groups for the sake of diversity. You can't achieve more diversity without picking people with that in mind. Why wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that this sort of thing works the same way in the military when the no trans ban is lifted by a progressive?  Again I have no proof on the military doing that.

I said supposedly because you didn't specify any case with a link. I'm aware that it can happen.
Those women you are refering to may very well have been chosen over men because of their gender in the end, but they (generally) still have to be qualified for the position. It's not that one man has the qualifications, and the woman was a high school dropout, but she has a vagina, so boom, she's in.
It may be that the man was a bit more qualified than the woman. That's possible. But there's no way they would hire someone to deal with life and death situations unless they were qualified. That's just silly to assume.

The majority of the roles are not so dramatic as life or death situations. Alot of them are support related but alot of them are vital. I agree that there's no way they would hire someone for a role involving life or death situations if they were drastically unfit for that role or duty in general but if they had problems that would normally get them turned down, they'd might be let in anyway. That's why I brought up them lessing standards during times they need alot of troops or when they really need certain roles to show that they do that sometimes. They could get waivers for things that others might not get for as easily like criminal charges or health issues. There will likely never be any data or studies on this but I would like to see one. Anyway, I I think I'm done with this thread for a bit at least. I've been glued to my laptop, replying to people instead of watching hunter x hunter like I intended. Later, Hiku.

edit. i don't watch stuff like infowars or ancient aliens.



http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/27/us/world-transgender-ban-facts/index.html

If Israel, our greatest ally, has zero issue with transgender soldiers, alongside 16 other countries, what makes us think they'll be issues with ours? In fact, we've had trans people in our military for years without any issues



(Formerly RCTjunkie)

Aeolus451 said:
TruckOSaurus said:

Your statement sums up to "I'm not transphobic but they're all mentally unstable".

I didn't say all, Sherlock. Statistically, they have higher rates of suicides and mental issues. #notall

There is a reason for that. When you have society constantly ridiculing your very existence... Bullying you... Well. It can make living less than pleasant.
Same goes for the LGBQI community as well... Because of the constant hate and ridicule they receive, they have a higher rate of suicide and mental illness.

How do you solve this? You don't exclude them for starters, that will only exacerbate the issue. In other words, people like you are the cause of it.

And let's be honest, unless you are part of the LGBTQI community, you shouldn't ever be under any assumptions of what it's like to be LGBTQI, think you know what is best for them and what rights they should have, because unless you live it... You don't really have a good grasp of any of it and thus shouldn't get a say IMHO.

Aeolus451 said:

Trans is different than a sexual orientation.


This. It's not a sexual orientation. You can be trans and straight, trans and gay, trans and bi. You name it.

I have two really good Trans friends who wen't from female to male (And pull it off stupidly well.)
One is straight, only liking females... The other is Pansexual who likes almost everything.

Aeolus451 said:

Gender dysphoria is a mental disorder. People with that disorder have a lot of mental issues that accompany it like how other disorders do.

That's a little bit of a generalization and not accurate.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

TargaryenVers2 said:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/27/us/world-transgender-ban-facts/index.html

If Israel, our greatest ally, has zero issue with transgender soldiers, alongside 16 other countries, what makes us think they'll be issues with ours? In fact, we've had trans people in our military for years without any issues

There isn't an issue. This is largely just another result of Donald Trump's incopetence as a leader of a country, stepping above the democratic process in order to take away jobs from thousands of people.

The US looks like it is falling apart, all because of Trump. I don't think even Bush managed to cause such a decline in the worldwide perception of the country.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

TargaryenVers2 said:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/27/us/world-transgender-ban-facts/index.html

If Israel, our greatest ally, has zero issue with transgender soldiers, alongside 16 other countries, what makes us think they'll be issues with ours? In fact, we've had trans people in our military for years without any issues

Hush, there are still people out there that believe transgender people started to join the army when Obama lifted the ban.