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Forums - Politics - 2017 French Election (Macron Wins 66%)

 

Who do you think will be the next President of France?

Macron 167 69.87%
 
Le Pen 72 30.13%
 
Total:239
Shadow1980 said:
Isolationism. Nationalism. Nativism. Protectionism. "Our country first!" It all comes from this mentality that some "other" is an existential threat to whatever in-group a person feels part of, often a nation or ethnic group. But all this obsession over "muh sovereignty" runs contrary to the very course of human history. As societies grew ever-larger and more complex, they became ever more connected and interdependent. Isolationism and autarky are dead letter. Economies are strengthened by international trade, and nations can form a bulwark against threatening regimes and rogue elements through mutual defense alliances. We live in a global society. Globalism is unavoidable. The idea that we can ever go back is foolishness.

"Strength in numbers." "United we stand, divided we fall." "A house divided against itself cannot stand." "Union gives strength." These are principles understood by humankind since time immemorial, and the enemies of a nation or an alliance will always seek to divide and conquer.

Ask yourself, would the U.S. States be as strong if they were 50 separate nations only loosely allied at best instead of the single unified nation they actually are? Would Western Europe have been able to stand up to the threat of the Soviet Union if there was no NATO or EU, and each nation voluntarily left itself to its own devices out of some sense of isolationist nationalism? And, more relevant to today's world, would the free nations of Europe be able to stand up against the threat of an aggressive, irredentist, increasingly authoritarian Russia today if they weren't united as a common community allied with the U.S. and other free nations? In every case, the answer is "unlikely."

Any nation in today's world that wants to shut itself off from the global community and turn itself inwards is doing nothing but inviting ruin upon itself. Wrapping yourself up in your flag, touting the virtues of rabid nationalism, walling your country off, closing your borders, and telling everyone else to get lost is not going to fix a damn thing. We'll see in two weeks if France realizes this or not.

Well said.



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HylianYoshi said:
I know fuck all about French politics, but I think Le Pen has a better chance of winning than many people in this thread are making it out to be.

Do you have any specific reason to think that? I mean, it seems very unlikely to me that Le Pen will win, since Macron will get the votes from the extreme left, left, center and most moderate right.



Flilix said:
HylianYoshi said:
I know fuck all about French politics, but I think Le Pen has a better chance of winning than many people in this thread are making it out to be.

Do you have any specific reason to think that? I mean, it seems very unlikely to me that Le Pen will win, since Macron will get the votes from the extreme left, left, center and most moderate right.

I'm all for the democratic, pro-trade, pro globalization, pro-tolerance and human rights candidate, which would be Macron. But overconfidence and polls led to Brexit and the fall of Clinton. Le Pen should be treated as the legitimate threat she is.

Also, the extreme left voters are unreliable as hell and can easily stab you in the back. If they are anything like the American extreme left, they might just decide not to vote, protest vote or curve to the far right to go against "continuism" and be "anti-establishment".



So are the 2 close runner ups left leaning? If so, it should be an easy win for Macron and Europe.



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morenoingrato said:
Flilix said:

Do you have any specific reason to think that? I mean, it seems very unlikely to me that Le Pen will win, since Macron will get the votes from the extreme left, left, center and most moderate right.

I'm all for the democratic, pro-trade, pro globalization, pro-tolerance and human rights candidate, which would be Macron. But overconfidence and polls led to Brexit and the fall of Clinton. Le Pen should be treated as the legitimate threat she is.

Also, the extreme left voters are unreliable as hell and can easily stab you in the back. If they are anything like the American extreme left, they might just decide not to vote, protest vote or curve to the far right to go against "continuism" and be "anti-establishment".

yea that's true, big portions of the far right and far left voters are more interested in shaking up the status quo rapidly then in any of the ideals those positions propose



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Hollande was doing a great job as President. I would have voted for Hollande in favour of a great President that has served France well. Gullible people are easily manipulated by lies and misinformation spread by fake news on social media.



vivster said:
So are the 2 close runner ups left leaning? If so, it should be an easy win for Macron and Europe.

Fillon is center-right, Melenchon is left and Hamon (who got 6%) is center-left, Dupont-Aignan (who got nearly 5%) is right as far as I can tell.

So basically Macron will a huge majority of Melenchon voters, nearly all Hamon voters and the majority of Fillon voters.
Le Pen will get a decent slice of Fillon voters and a huge majority of Dupont-Aignan voters.

At least that is what should happen, if I put the politicians in their right camps.



Shadow1980 said:
Isolationism. Nationalism. Nativism. Protectionism. "Our country first!" It all comes from this mentality that some "other" is an existential threat to whatever in-group a person feels part of, often a nation or ethnic group. But all this obsession over "muh sovereignty" runs contrary to the very course of human history. As societies grew ever-larger and more complex, they became ever more connected and interdependent. Isolationism and autarky are dead letter. Economies are strengthened by international trade, and nations can form a bulwark against threatening regimes and rogue elements through mutual defense alliances. We live in a global society. Globalism is unavoidable. The idea that we can ever go back is foolishness.

"Strength in numbers." "United we stand, divided we fall." "A house divided against itself cannot stand." "Union gives strength." These are principles understood by humankind since time immemorial, and the enemies of a nation or an alliance will always seek to divide and conquer.

Ask yourself, would the U.S. States be as strong if they were 50 separate nations only loosely allied at best instead of the single unified nation they actually are? Would Western Europe have been able to stand up to the threat of the Soviet Union if there was no NATO or EU, and each nation voluntarily left itself to its own devices out of some sense of isolationist nationalism? And, more relevant to today's world, would the free nations of Europe be able to stand up against the threat of an aggressive, irredentist, increasingly authoritarian Russia today if they weren't united as a common community allied with the U.S. and other free nations? In every case, the answer is "unlikely."

Any nation in today's world that wants to shut itself off from the global community and turn itself inwards is doing nothing but inviting ruin upon itself. Wrapping yourself up in your flag, touting the virtues of rabid nationalism, walling your country off, closing your borders, and telling everyone else to get lost is not going to fix a damn thing. We'll see in two weeks if France realizes this or not.

I agree with what you're saying in some respects, and this "everyone hold hands and stand together" stuff sounds nice on paper, but in reality, this system of free trade, mass immigration, and globalization (essentially neoliberalism) unchecked is failing in many ways, and people are begining to pick up on this. Hell, just look at the massive failure that is the World Bank and IMF for instance.. People feel they are being "sold down the river" in the favor of the almighty force of globalization. This is why there is so much of a nationalist/populist/isolationist uprising going on in the first place.. I think at a certain point, between Brexit, Trump, Tories, La Pen, etc, you have to take a step back and wonder - well why is this stuff gaining so much traction? I'm also a firm believer in the idea that power almost inherantly corrupts, and thus abosulte power corrupts aboslutely. And so at the head of these super-global power structures, you have the potential for some very influential and potentially dangerous figureheads that can influence the lives of a growing number of people. 

This isn't to say these separate societies would be, or should be at odds with eachother however. I don't believe these movements largely advocate fighting and/or distriminating against one another, nor should they. But rather, they stress sovereignty and a celebration of their unique and disctinct cultural attributes, which they can exchange with others. I believe these ideals can coexist with cooperation and peace - but I dunno, maybe I'm naive.. I'm simply looking at the results of these elections and trying to see why the trends are leading in this direction. 



 

"We hold these truths to be self-evident - all men and women created by the, go-you know.. you know the thing!" - Joe Biden

Aeolus451 said:
Lawlight said:

Aren't you someone who's pretty sheltered? What would you know about the effects of mass immigration?

Considering his liberal points of view on most things,  he seems like anyone else who's in college or fresh out of one. So yes he's pretty sheltered on some things.

I'm not a liberal. I'm a socialist



VGPolyglot said:
Aeolus451 said:

Considering his liberal points of view on most things,  he seems like anyone else who's in college or fresh out of one. So yes he's pretty sheltered on some things.

I'm not a liberal. I'm a socialist

 There's not much difference in between those these days. Bernie.....