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Forums - Politics Discussion - Students beat classmate to death screaming Allahu Akbar (New graphic video)

LurkerJ said:
nil8r153 said:
While the punishment for apostasy is undoubtedly death, this case is extremely unjust - the punishment is only implementable in an Islamic state by the valid government after *much* due process. Vigilante "justice" is never the way to do things.

A sad story indeed.

 

 

"I never understood this particular Islamic instruction. I don't understand many Islamic instructions, but this one in particular gets under my skin and makes me vomit, especially when most, if not all, Muslims living here in Europe defend it. 

Why is apostasy's punishment is "undoubtedly" death? Especially when it comes to this "beaten to death student" kind of situations."

The reason it is undoubtedly so is because the Prophet ﷺ commanded it. When it comes to clear texts such as that one there isn't any room for interpretation or change, it is what it is. You say most, if not all - it should be all if they truly understand the religion.

"He grew up, he grew wiser, he realised Islam isn't right for him, and that he never decided to go into Islam in the first place, so him converting out of Islam shouldn't be considered converting "out" at all. He was a young cluess soul when he was told believe in Islam and he obeyed his parents like all kids do, he grew up and made up his on mind, like all of us do in all aspects of life and choose the path we believe that are right. Not the paths others tell us about (and this isn't exclusive to religion)."

Wiser, ha. Debatable. I really do feel sorry for the young guy, it pains my heart. The Islamic ruling for apostasy is death, but the ruling upon HIM was not death since he hadn't faced due process etc. I went through a long period of doubt earlier in life, that I now know was due to a complete lack of knowledge. I am grateful that I was given the chance to do better and truly mournful thinking about this young man who didn't.

"So even if I was a Muslim, and even if I believed that apostasy's punishment is "undoubtedly death". I wouldn't have asked for this student to be sentenced to death, or any other apostate for that matter."

Yes, in this specific case I agree.

"I am not stupid enough to believe that the entire Muslim population "chose" Islam. It was imposed on them, the majority of people are fine with that, but only a few of them grew wise enough to shed and reject what was imposed on them as little kids. Some drop out of college and start successful businesses and some drop out of Islam to get their heads chopped off? What kind of religion is that...  give me a f******break. "

No, some are born into it etc. No one should be forced as that is expressly forbidden in the Quran, but in reality social pressure may force a few to feign belief to fit in etc - that is human nature. Your analogy is nonsensical since successful business and spiritual bankruptcy are not alike :)



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LurkerJ said:

It's non-believers' right to DEMAND proof of Allah, Jesus or whatever god you believe in....

You are 100% correct :)

It is an Islamic principle that the burden of proof is upon the claimant. Given my predisposition I would say the claimant is yourself, but regardlesss you still have a right to ask.

If you are after a more scientific approach then I offer you this:

http://www.hizb-australia.org/2016/09/shaykh-taqiuddin-nabhanis-argument-for-god/


If you have heard it spouted endlessly that the Quran is a "miracle" but never understood why, then this should shed light on that:

http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/essays-articles/exploring-the-quran/the-inimitable-quran/


I am happy to share more if these links create more questions. I leave you with a roughly translated quote from the esteemed scholar, Shaykh Al-Albaani (may Allah have mercy upon him):

The person who is seeking the truth, one evidence will be enough for him. A person who is upon their desires, a thousand evidences will still not be clear for him.



irstupid said:
crissindahouse said:

Why should any science need to prove there is no god? If I say that I know an alien from Mars then it's my job to prove it and not the job of others to disprove it. 

That doesn't mean there is no god but it's still not the job of disbelievers to prove there is none. 

The very point of science is to prove things. Religion is about faith. To prove ones religion would be counter to that, just as to not prove something would be counter to science..

So yes, in this case it is up to you to prove that God or whatever you are talking about does not exist. There is nothing for a religious person to prove. They believe. 

 

irstupid said:
A_C_E said:

No, the very point of science is to peer review factual findings and test them against the fabric of the universe in order to better understand reality. How can you do this with a belief claim? Your kind of thinking is so counter-intuitive considering the burden of proof is on the one making the claim, whether it's a belief or not.

Let's put it this way: A believer claims there is a God, a Scientists' claim will be that there is no evidence. You are now saying it is not up to the believer who made the initial claim, instead up to science, so explain to me this: How can science prove that there is nothing of something that doesn't exist?

You still don't get it. Religion is not a science, it is not a hypothesis. Someone religious is not putting out some theory that God exists and trying to prove it like scientists do for their theories. They just believe. A believer does not care about proof or not. They have faith, or believe. Proof is contrary to that. They don't need proof and don't desire to find proof. If you need proof to believe in God, you do not beleive in God. 

You and other non-believers seem to care about proof that he exists or not. Thus if you want that proof, then it's up to you to go and get that proof one way or another. 

I had to respond with my two cents after reading your nonsensical posts. You don't really understand the point in believing in a religion or god. You're getting too hung up in the faith or belief of it. I'll explain it as best as I can.  

Every truly religious person believes their religion is genuinely real. If they have any sense, they would care about any proof that their god(s) are/is real because it would validate their beliefs and they would get the rewards for their beliefs or it would prove that they wasted their life believing in something that doesn't exist. Most religious people (and their families) invest a great deal of themselves into their belief because they think it's real.  To them, it's do or die. 

Science in general doesn't have a bet on a horse in if god(s) are real or not so to speak. It's merely a curiousity to prove it or not for people of science. They don't have any pressure or obligation to prove or disprove the existence of god(s). 



If Islam was a religion of peace, shouldn't the most fundamentalist believers be the most peaceful?



LadyJasmine said:
If Islam was a religion of peace, shouldn't the most fundamentalist believers be the most peaceful?

There's not really such thing as a fundamentalist, since the Quran has many contradictions in it. So, one's societal circumstances is going to help them determine which parts to adhere to and which to not.



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nil8r153 said:
LurkerJ said:

It's non-believers' right to DEMAND proof of Allah, Jesus or whatever god you believe in....

You are 100% correct :)

It is an Islamic principle that the burden of proof is upon the claimant. Given my predisposition I would say the claimant is yourself, but regardlesss you still have a right to ask.

If you are after a more scientific approach then I offer you this:

http://www.hizb-australia.org/2016/09/shaykh-taqiuddin-nabhanis-argument-for-god/


If you have heard it spouted endlessly that the Quran is a "miracle" but never understood why, then this should shed light on that:

http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/essays-articles/exploring-the-quran/the-inimitable-quran/


I am happy to share more if these links create more questions. I leave you with a roughly translated quote from the esteemed scholar, Shaykh Al-Albaani (may Allah have mercy upon him):

The person who is seeking the truth, one evidence will be enough for him. A person who is upon their desires, a thousand evidences will still not be clear for him.

That's not evidence. There is no evidence that any god exists. Otherwise you would be posting scientific evidence instead of links to blogs of people who are a fans of Mohammad.



VGPolyglot said:
LadyJasmine said:
If Islam was a religion of peace, shouldn't the most fundamentalist believers be the most peaceful?

There's not really such thing as a fundamentalist, since the Quran has many contradictions in it. So, one's societal circumstances is going to help them determine which parts to adhere to and which to not.

So, you're telling people how to interpret their faith?



Lawlight said:
VGPolyglot said:

There's not really such thing as a fundamentalist, since the Quran has many contradictions in it. So, one's societal circumstances is going to help them determine which parts to adhere to and which to not.

So, you're telling people how to interpret their faith?

No, I'm saying that people interpret their faith. How come I only ever see you ask questions?



VGPolyglot said:
Lawlight said:

So, you're telling people how to interpret their faith?

No, I'm saying that people interpret their faith. How come I only ever see you ask questions?

Because I want to clarify what you're saying. No idea how you can say there aren't fundamentalists and say that you're not interpreting their faith for them. There are people who want to live the way Mohammad lived. Those people aren't fundamentalists? Also, these are depicted in the Hadith, not the Quran.

 

Btw, watched the discussion between Dave Rubin and Yasmine Mohammed? I think it'all be on interest to you.



Lawlight said:
VGPolyglot said:

No, I'm saying that people interpret their faith. How come I only ever see you ask questions?

Because I want to clarify what you're saying. No idea how you can say there aren't fundamentalists and say that you're not interpreting their faith for them. There are people who want to live the way Mohammad lived. Those people aren't fundamentalists? Also, these are depicted in the Hadith, not the Quran.

 

Btw, watched the discussion between Dave Rubin and Yasmine Mohammed? I think it'all be on interest to you.

We don't have all of the context or details of Muhammad's life, so there's inevitably going to be interpretations of his actions and teachings.