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Forums - General Discussion - Man violently removed from United Airlines plane. ~Update~ United may have broken the law.

Machiavellian said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:

This.

And the company's policy about overbooking is totally messed up in the part about removing people already on board (possibly with their luggage in the hold too) to make room for other people that still aren't.

Yes, police do enforce any company rules.  In other words, if this was a bar, your home, a business and you wanted someone to leave, you can call the police to make them go.  Its your property and you have the right to admit or not admit someone on that property.  Also this is airline security which enforce you know airline security.  Airline security is not part of United and their action actually is their own.  Since United is the one that called them it's still their fault that the incident happened.

As for the overbooking policy, you better check every airline because they all do it.  Federal regulations actually allows them to do it and regulate how they reimburse customers for overbooking.

this wasn't  'overbooking'. Overbooking is when more than one of the same seat/ticket is sold and they are forced to reallocate people. This was a fully booked flight but there weren't two people showing up for one seat or whatever.

the United people at that airport realized last minute that they had forgotten that they wanted to (or supposedly NEEDED to) fly 4 of their employees to Kentucky for a job the next day.

That's not overbooking. Those employees never purchased tickets and were never in the system for particular seats. They just last minute tried to force them on. 

Also almost universally with flights airlines are not supposed to attempt to take people's seats away (even for overbooking) if they have ALREADY boarded. A lot of things were done wrong here, some very likely falling under the not legal category 



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deskpro2k3 said:

It's time for the Government to up the bump price above $1300.

And that fact that United Airlines didn't even offer the maximum amount is effed up. Overbooking, trying to be cheap, and then calling security is three strikes.

As I had some time to kill I actually looked into the matter.  So the company that runs this particular flight is Republic Airlines.  So the planes are United but the company is an affiliate who actually do the service.  Also the flight was not overbooked, it was sold out.  This is a huge difference and may come to bite United even though they were not servicing this flight.



Machiavellian said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:

 

He paid the ticket and United let him go on board. Everywhere else in the world, in case of overbooking it's the last arrived and not on board yet that gets shafted, never anybody that was already regularly boarded. He didn't board either sneakily or forcibly, United boarded him. United called the police, or the airport security, not to enforce a rule he violated, but THEIR violation of a deal they stroke with the passenger in the very moment they accepted to board him in exchange for his money.

It does not matter if you are on the plane or not on the plane.  Not sure why people keep thinking this is a distinction.  Federal regulations allows ALL airlines to bump passengers when overbooked even if they are on the plane.  This means that your ticket means nothing as far as you having rights to fly on any particular plane.  Usually all things get handled before boarding but it doesn't matter if you board or not board as you can still get kicked off.   

United called security after asking him to leave repeatedly.  Since United cannot enforce removal of a passenger, security was called because no matter what he was going to get bumped.  As I have stated, he played a bluff but once security came on the scene, the rules changed.  Now he was being asked to leave by security and by refusing the onus was now on him. 

 

On another issue, I am not even sure that this guy will be able to sue United.  Federal regulations allows airlines to oversale and bump passengers from planes so United was in their legal right.  Since it was security that removed the passenger which caused him to get hurt, then only airport security can be placed in the claim.  Should be interesting to see if a lawsuit gets filed and if United can be claimed. 

do a little more research. You're on here arguing about a story you don't know well (clearly). This was NOT overbooking. Overbooking does not occur with employees who don't pay for tickets. The whole reason this situation occured was because LAST MINUTE United wanted to squeeze some of their employees on the plane for a flight and screw over 4 of their customers.

Overbooking would be if there were 4 seats sold to 8 people and (obviously) in that case pre-boarding the airline would have to reallocate half of the people due to their mistake

He very likely does have a case. I also am almost certain that legally speaking there is no clause that someone can be removed from a plane without merit. This isn't overbooking, this isn't a disorderly passenger, this isn't anything- except for United last minute wanting to fly some of their own people. There certainly is NOTHING in a ticket contract stating that your seat can go to an employee for a non emergency



Machiavellian said:
deskpro2k3 said:

It's time for the Government to up the bump price above $1300.

And that fact that United Airlines didn't even offer the maximum amount is effed up. Overbooking, trying to be cheap, and then calling security is three strikes.

As I had some time to kill I actually looked into the matter.  So the company that runs this particular flight is Republic Airlines.  So the planes are United but the company is an affiliate who actually do the service.  Also the flight was not overbooked, it was sold out.  This is a huge difference and may come to bite United even though they were not servicing this flight.

yes, next time maybe try reading a bit beforehand.

It has been known since the story emerged like 2 days ago that it wasn't an overbooking. It was simply the airline last minute wanting to fly some of their employees. Good luck United with that holding up in court.

just for the record- the concept that arbituarly an airline could have you board a plane, get into your paid for seat, and then say "hey, omg, we want to fly a few of our employees instead, give us your seat" is so ridiculously crazy that it blows my mind. It is not an accepted precedent as is and certainly shouldn't become one. 

This guy has a fantastic case when you combine the incredibly poor reasoning United had for taking his seat AND the means in which he was removed from the plane (which, again, as far as I know there are no rules about physically removing a paying customer from a seat for absolutely no real reason)



mountaindewslave said:
Machiavellian said:

Yes, police do enforce any company rules.  In other words, if this was a bar, your home, a business and you wanted someone to leave, you can call the police to make them go.  Its your property and you have the right to admit or not admit someone on that property.  Also this is airline security which enforce you know airline security.  Airline security is not part of United and their action actually is their own.  Since United is the one that called them it's still their fault that the incident happened.

As for the overbooking policy, you better check every airline because they all do it.  Federal regulations actually allows them to do it and regulate how they reimburse customers for overbooking.

this wasn't  'overbooking'. Overbooking is when more than one of the same seat/ticket is sold and they are forced to reallocate people. This was a fully booked flight but there weren't two people showing up for one seat or whatever.

the United people at that airport realized last minute that they had forgotten that they wanted to (or supposedly NEEDED to) fly 4 of their employees to Kentucky for a job the next day.

That's not overbooking. Those employees never purchased tickets and were never in the system for particular seats. They just last minute tried to force them on. 

Also almost universally with flights airlines are not supposed to attempt to take people's seats away (even for overbooking) if they have ALREADY boarded. A lot of things were done wrong here, some very likely falling under the not legal category 

I just read it was not overbooked but even if it were, there is no guideline for any airline when they can bump a passenger.  It does not say in the guideline before or after they are on board and its very open as to giving the airline the right to do the bumping whenever they want.  The only thing the airline has to do is first ask for volunteers and when there are not enough then it’s up to the airline the next steps.



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mountaindewslave said:
Machiavellian said:

It does not matter if you are on the plane or not on the plane.  Not sure why people keep thinking this is a distinction.  Federal regulations allows ALL airlines to bump passengers when overbooked even if they are on the plane.  This means that your ticket means nothing as far as you having rights to fly on any particular plane.  Usually all things get handled before boarding but it doesn't matter if you board or not board as you can still get kicked off.   

United called security after asking him to leave repeatedly.  Since United cannot enforce removal of a passenger, security was called because no matter what he was going to get bumped.  As I have stated, he played a bluff but once security came on the scene, the rules changed.  Now he was being asked to leave by security and by refusing the onus was now on him. 

 

On another issue, I am not even sure that this guy will be able to sue United.  Federal regulations allows airlines to oversale and bump passengers from planes so United was in their legal right.  Since it was security that removed the passenger which caused him to get hurt, then only airport security can be placed in the claim.  Should be interesting to see if a lawsuit gets filed and if United can be claimed. 

do a little more research. You're on here arguing about a story you don't know well (clearly). This was NOT overbooking. Overbooking does not occur with employees who don't pay for tickets. The whole reason this situation occured was because LAST MINUTE United wanted to squeeze some of their employees on the plane for a flight and screw over 4 of their customers.

Overbooking would be if there were 4 seats sold to 8 people and (obviously) in that case pre-boarding the airline would have to reallocate half of the people due to their mistake

He very likely does have a case. I also am almost certain that legally speaking there is no clause that someone can be removed from a plane without merit. This isn't overbooking, this isn't a disorderly passenger, this isn't anything- except for United last minute wanting to fly some of their own people. There certainly is NOTHING in a ticket contract stating that your seat can go to an employee for a non emergency

Lol, United just changed their story.  I am arguing about overbooked which was the original story until now.  I actually have a job so not following every minute update on this issue.  Either way you are still wrong, go read the guideline on oversale yourself and see there is nothing stating when an airline can bump you off a plane.  Meaning if there is not a specific time then it's anytime.



Machiavellian said:
SvennoJ said:

Where are those federal regulations, it's not in here
http://www.kcra.com/article/you-can-legally-be-removed-from-flights-for-these-reasons/9261454
Or here
http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2017/04/11/united-denied-boarding-illegal/

I actually read the regulation and it states airlines can involuntarily force passengers from flights if overbooked.  It does not make any stipulations of whether they are on the plane or not which means airlines can do it at any point they choose.  Actually the only thing the airline has to do is first ask for volunteers before resulting to any measure they deem to use.  The regulations is pretty open on this part and it’s the discretion of the airline how they go about this policy.  Usually this all happens way before boarding but in this case it did not which of course is the problem that got United into this spot.  Interesting enough, when reading the regulations, it appears that United is the least company to bump you off a flight as all airlines have to report this to the DOT.

Which regulations are those? Can't find it in here
https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/fly-rights
https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx#sec21
It's all about denied boarding, after boarding there's nothing about forcing passengers from flights due to overbooking. (Now they're saying it wasn't even overbooked, perhaps trying to cover themselves with some other obscure rule about making room for employees?)



SvennoJ said:
Machiavellian said:

I actually read the regulation and it states airlines can involuntarily force passengers from flights if overbooked.  It does not make any stipulations of whether they are on the plane or not which means airlines can do it at any point they choose.  Actually the only thing the airline has to do is first ask for volunteers before resulting to any measure they deem to use.  The regulations is pretty open on this part and it’s the discretion of the airline how they go about this policy.  Usually this all happens way before boarding but in this case it did not which of course is the problem that got United into this spot.  Interesting enough, when reading the regulations, it appears that United is the least company to bump you off a flight as all airlines have to report this to the DOT.

Which regulations are those? Can't find it in here
https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/fly-rights
https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx#sec21
It's all about denied boarding, after boarding there's nothing about forcing passengers from flights due to overbooking. (Now they're saying it wasn't even overbooked, perhaps trying to cover themselves with some other obscure rule about making room for employees?)

Did you not read those rules.  Since it does not stipulate when or where but what must be done first before involuntary bumping means its up to the airline how they proceed after asking for volunteers.  Here is the part you need to pay real attention to.

"OT rules require airlines to seek out people who are willing to give up their seats for compensation before bumping anyone involuntarily"

Nothing about when, only that they need to ask for volunteers before kicking you off.  This is what I mean.  There is no mandate on the how, when or where so the regulations are very open to the discretion of the airline.  When regulations do not state exactly a rule then its open.  



Machiavellian said:
SvennoJ said:

Which regulations are those? Can't find it in here
https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/fly-rights
https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx#sec21
It's all about denied boarding, after boarding there's nothing about forcing passengers from flights due to overbooking. (Now they're saying it wasn't even overbooked, perhaps trying to cover themselves with some other obscure rule about making room for employees?)

Did you not read those rules.  Since it does not stipulate when or where but what must be done first before involuntary bumping means its up to the airline how they proceed after asking for volunteers.  Here is the part you need to pay real attention to.

"OT rules require airlines to seek out people who are willing to give up their seats for compensation before bumping anyone involuntarily"

Nothing about when, only that they need to ask for volunteers before kicking you off.  This is what I mean.  There is no mandate on the how, when or where so the regulations are very open to the discretion of the airline.  When regulations do not state exactly a rule then its open.  

Bumping is before boarding. Bumping does not mean removing from the plane. Where does it state that?

They have very specific rules for when you can be removed from inside the plane, this is not part of those rules. It stands to reason that they have no right to remove you if you comply with the specific rules set out. Why have such specific rules if it's open to the discretion of the airline?



Imaginedvl said:

Really? Did you even read/watch what happened?

First of all it is on the contract for the ticket that he may get removed at this economy class (the ticket) if the plane is full; he knew it and took the risk by buying it... Second, they asked him nicely... And he refused to leave the plane. Then like always in this kind of situation, the airport security removes any person refusing to attempt... And that was far from being "violent" and far from being abnormal... If the guy would not have resisted like crazy, he would not have getting hurt... That's his own fault, they cannot just ignore it and leave him on the plane at the end 

Seriously this story and the people reacting to it shows how people today do not want to follow rules or guidelines and feel so entitled... The dude refused to comply to a valid request and then some people are chocked because they forcely (different than violently) removed him from the plane.

I mean, the only thing that sucks here (imo) is the airliner not being so good at managing their seats :) But nothing else. the dude did not comply and he got removed, sucks, but expected...

IMO this is just another example of corporate america having power over the consumer. In no way should they have the right to remove you from a seat if you paid for it, made plans, took days off, etc. United shouldn't have over sold it's seats. If it needed employees to get to another location they should find a flight that has room and send them on that flght or pay for tickets with another airline to get there. If none of those are an option for them then they should have planned things out better. At the end of the day this is all about poor planning by airlines which is the norm and has stayed the norm because there is no  incentive to change. You have people like this who just feel we should adjust our schdules and lives for the company.