Forums - Sony Discussion - Did Sony make a mistake by be first to release an upgraded console.

No not really, it's less powerful, it's also going to be cheaper.

Neither device is aimed at the mass-market like their 1080p counterparts, If they were the start of a new generation I'd maybe say yes, but as it is it's not really an issue for PlayStation.



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Sometimes I think that people believe this "console war" is actually real.



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Course not, power doesn't matter anymore.




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Intrinsic said:
KBG29 said:

I was taking into account new form factors. I fully believe Sony and Nintendo will put out more options to build out their ecosystem, considering how important their hardware and ecosystems are. It would not shock me to see a Portable PS4 next year, and a Switch Mini. Then a PS4 and XBO revision in 2019, followed by a Switch revision in 2020, and so on and so forth.

It just seems like we have reach a point where they are no longer trying to compete head to head at the same launch, and they are all willing to take time and try to capture the spot light in their own window.

Thats the thing though... what you are saying sin't possible either. People keep saying this thing a lot. A PS4 portable...... but when I see that I just think to myself that these people don't really know how hardware works.

The switch in docked mode has a peak power draw of around 17watts. Mind you, thats 17watts for the entire system so it covers everything that requires power to run in the switch and not just the APU. The PS4 on the other hand draws a max 140watt of power. Thats like 7 TIMES more power needed!!!! And this isn't even taking int consideration that sony would have to make cart versions of all its PS4 games or go all digital and still put in a significant sized nad flash module(s) in the unit (which is way more expensive than throwing in a HDD.

For there to be a PS4 portable, max power consumption has to come down to around 20watt. Even shifting to a 7nm node..... thats just not possible.

Mr Puggsly said:

1.That same argument could be made when the PS5 launches. Scropio will be a very capable box that's cheaper and it will share games with the next Xbox.

2. PS4 Pro specs upgrade just wasn't big enough. They should have made a better upgrade for $499. It would have been more capable, more desired, and the average user on budget would have bought a PS4 Slim anyway.

3. Sony hasn't made many mistakes this gen, but PS4 Pro underdelivered.

Alright, lets put our preferences aside here and be honest.

 

  1. The same argument can't be made because of the CPU. When the new consoles come along, we are not ging to be looking at just significant GPU boosts compared to their older brothers. We are going to be looking at significant improvements in bothe the CPU and GPU. The better CPU means there are games that would be made that just wouldn't be possible to make on the PS4/PS4pro and the XB1s/XB1SC. That is what marks a generational jump as oppoed to an incremental one.

  2. You see you contradicted yourself here. So they should have gone for broke and made a $499 machine for what would turn out to be less than 10% of their yearly sales? How does that make any sense. What they did was make a machne that give gamers a passable "4k" experience. So those that want to hop into 4k even those doing so on a budget, have a cheap budget minded 4k console to go with it. Unless of course you are trying to say that the more expensive hardware will always sell better.

  3. Underdelivered how? What were you expecting? or what are you suggesting will happen with the scorpio. If you think the scorpio is somehow going to amount to 50% or more of the XB1's yearly total sales then you are in for a very big surprise. No one thats waited this long to buy a console is going to do so now because there are more expoensive versions of the already existing consoles on the market. The scorpio will sell primarily to people that already own an XB1 and care about upgrading. At least 90% of its sales will be made of those kinda gamers, as is the case with the PS4pro.

 

1. We'll have to wait and see if the new console CPUs are total game changer. I don't think that will be the case.

2. PS4 Pro is a contradiction. Its the premium console for 4K TVs, but it too rarely does 4K. Passable resolution, sure. But again a more capable console that did 4K and even did a better job boosting performance in non-Pro games would have been more desireable. $499 is still pretty reasonable for a premium device designed to work on cutting edge TVs. For those on a budget, get a PS4 Slim.

3. PS4 Pro underdelivered for a premium console. Which is why you see a lot of people saying its not a big enough improvment to justify the purchase. Again, I believe people wanted more power with the Pro.



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Mr Puggsly said:

1. We'll have to wait and see if the new console CPUs are total game changer. I don't think that will be the case.

2. PS4 Pro is a contradiction. Its the premium console for 4K TVs, but it too rarely does 4K. Passable resolution, sure. But again a more capable console that did 4K and even did a better job boosting performance in non-Pro games would have been more desireable. $499 is still pretty reasonable for a premium device designed to work on cutting edge TVs. For those on a budget, get a PS4 Slim.

3. PS4 Pro underdelivered for a premium console. Which is why you see a lot of people saying its not a big enough improvment to justify the purchase. Again, I believe people wanted more power with the Pro.

  1. Look at it from a tech stand point. When we went from 28nm fabrication to 14/16nm, what that should have allowed is for as much as a theoretical 4 times boost in overall performance. Basically you can fit 4 times more transitors in the sme amount of space (in a perfect world). What we ended up with are the CPUs basically remaining the same but clocked higher (another way to go with a node shrink) and the GPUs doubling (PS4pro from 18CU to 36CU) and almost quadripling (Scorpio from 12CU to 40CU). 

    Now remember that the CPU has been so far left prtty much untouched.

    The next consoles will be on a 7/10nm node around 2020. So we can expect a similar boost in GPU perfromance of at least double or quadriple what we have in the PS4pro/Scorpio and/or even higher clocks for the GPU or a combination of both. So we will see at least 70CU - 140CU GPUs or 70CU GPUs that run at twice the clock of what we have now with the PS4pro. So basically 70CU running at 1.8Ghz which will be around a 4 times boost in perfromance going from the PS4pro to the PS5.

    And the CPU front, we are likely to see not one, but a two node shrink jump in performance. This doesn't mean we will suddenly have 32 core CPUs cause that will be a nightmare to programme for, but rather the same 8 cores but with each core having 4 times the transistors and other improvements than what we have today. And of course running at higher clocks. 

    So basically, just looking at the tech, looking at what has come before and how tech usually works..... the next consoles will have an at least 3-4 times jump in CPU and GPU performance from the PS4pro (using the pro as the base andnot the scorpio cause the next consoles also have tocome in at entry level pricing). 

    That will be a SIGNIFICANT jump. And this is before we even start talking about all the other things like Ram, bandwidth, I/O....etc.

  2. This is because you still don't get it or choose to look at it the wrong way. The PS4 is a 4k console. But only as far as it supporting 4k TVs and a resolution higher than 1080p. Its the same way the XB1 supports 1080p tvs but most of its games run natively at 900p or less. What the PS4 has done or does, is double its pixel performance. Thats the world it lives in. Going up from 2M to 4M pixels, then using reconstruction or in other cases upscaling to go up to 4k. 

    You keep saying this more desireable and ignore that fact that this stop gap bump is just enough for a lot of people. They are at least getting a noticeably better IQ than what they had with 1080p. You also need to understand that when you start adding pixels, it gets even harder to tell them apart. 

  3. Now this may shock you, but....... the PS4 is NOT a premium console. Its a version of the PS4 that has a bigger HDD and does/supports 4k gaming. By the time its all said and done, its a budget 4k console. The scorpio is going to be what ends up being a premium console; and the funny thing is that its not because of its hardware improvements (because if anyone really wanted to make a proper 4k console now it would have ended up being the scorpio) but its premium because its just a significantly more expensive way of playing the same games that exist on the XB1s. 

    Take this into consideration. By the time the scorpio is released, there could also be a $200 PS4/XB1s on the market. Now even if the scorpio costs $399 (which is highly unlikely but possible) it would be costing twice as much than the XB1s/PS4. This is even a lot worse if its costs $499. Especially when at the time the PS4 pro could cost as little as $299-$350.

    just think about this. Scorpio $499. PS4pro $299/$349. PS4/XB1 $199.


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Not really. MS are not going to beat PS4.
If you want to talk simply of power, PS5 will be out within two years. Scorpio irrelevant already, would love MS to release another two years later, will be a lot of pissed scorpio purchasers



Don't think so, especially if Sony decides to cut the price and/or bundle a game with the Pro later this year. The reason why power gap between the base PS4 and XB1 was given attention at the beginning of the gen was because the former was more powerful and more affordable.



Intrinsic said:
KBG29 said:

I was taking into account new form factors. I fully believe Sony and Nintendo will put out more options to build out their ecosystem, considering how important their hardware and ecosystems are. It would not shock me to see a Portable PS4 next year, and a Switch Mini. Then a PS4 and XBO revision in 2019, followed by a Switch revision in 2020, and so on and so forth.

It just seems like we have reach a point where they are no longer trying to compete head to head at the same launch, and they are all willing to take time and try to capture the spot light in their own window.

Thats the thing though... what you are saying sin't possible either. People keep saying this thing a lot. A PS4 portable...... but when I see that I just think to myself that these people don't really know how hardware works.

The switch in docked mode has a peak power draw of around 17watts. Mind you, thats 17watts for the entire system so it covers everything that requires power to run in the switch and not just the APU. The PS4 on the other hand draws a max 140watt of power. Thats like 7 TIMES more power needed!!!! And this isn't even taking int consideration that sony would have to make cart versions of all its PS4 games or go all digital and still put in a significant sized nad flash module(s) in the unit (which is way more expensive than throwing in a HDD.

For there to be a PS4 portable, max power consumption has to come down to around 20watt. Even shifting to a 7nm node..... thats just not possible.

     

    I think people only look at the launch PS4 numbers and have not looked at recent numbers on the slim. The Slim uses significantly less power than the day one model, and even the 1200 model had a decent size reduction in power use, without a shrink in the APU. Actually PS4 Slim only draws a maximum of 86 Watts in the most load heavy situation, with the front end at 47W and 4 player split screen on Rocket League taking 63W. 

    There are already rumors of an even slimmer PS4, and it would make sense that this would have an even lower power draw than the current slim. As times goes on, everything in the system shrinks, and in some cases, things can be eliminated, and their operation can be picked up by other components at a cheaper cost powerwise and monetarly.

    It is very possible for Sony to rework that PS4 into a portable if they want to. They can customize the components to reach the power levels they need. It would definitly be harder right now, but they could always be looking at 12 or 10nm options, which will be available sooner, and make it easier. Once the reach 7nm, I have no doubt they can pull it off. Even under the current curve they would be looking at just over 40Watts in the worst scenario at 7nm. That can easily be ironeed out if they are focusing on a portabe design.

    As far as cost is concerened, I think it is all about making a profit, and less about massive market penitration. If it has to cost $499.99, to make it viable, then that is what it should be. Though I don't think it will be that bad. Samsung expects the price of NAND based memory to drop below traditional drives $/GB by 2020, and that would be the single most expensive component. I think if they launched this year it would be $399.99. As long as they give it 4G and Calling/Texting it will be worth $800 to me, because it will be a smatphone on steroids.

    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-hands-on-with-the-playstation-4-slim-cuh-2000



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    KBG29 on PSN&XBL

    Scorpio is a reaction to this entire gen.

    Alot more news is coming. This is just the start.



    When you have the first party powerhouse that PS4 has, it doesn't matter anymore. In no way or shape can MS do anything that can hurt PS at this point, unless Sony messes up badly. Only depends on Sony's mistakes at this point.



    ...Let the Sony Domination continue with the PS4...