The problem with MGS2, and a lot of anime, is that people mistake someone's convoluted attempt to work philosophy into their work as a sign of genius when it is actually someone stepping out of their element and it shows. What makes great story tellers in drama so great is their ability to have people look at the human condition from different points of view not by telling them, but through the story. MGS2 does not do this, it tells you what you are supposed to gain from it. If you have to tell the audience, you failed. Video games are an extraordinarily difficult medium to work in your view point because other elements have to not only be work, but be good. Chances are, your ability to make people really think is going to be hindered by having them hide under boxes. Hiding under boxes may be fun, but many of the fun elements of MGS games make it a poor forum for philosophy. Kojima was out of his element and should have just stuck to having a grand heroic and slightly embittered ending for the characters. This happens in anime all the time. Every Sci-Fi anime series has to have some great moral or message attached to it and 99% of them fall far short of it or it's just flat retarded high school pot smoking philosophy.

So, in short, MGS2's story was bad, just bad. I start laughing when I read the ending up above. If anyone thinks MGS2 really hit home, then at least we know who is also buying Family Guy DVDs for the stinging social commentary . . . or humor.

PC, Xbox, PS2.

No Gamecube? Pity. It can't be helped though.

Damn, I was just playing Deus Ex today. Damn fine game, doesn't get enough credit. I'm going to go back to playing it in a little while.

Just PC and PS2. But you'd better get the PC version because since the PS2 was a limited techonology they were forced to cut alot of the maps on the PS2 version.

You can buy Deus Ex for just $9.95 on Steam:

http://steampowered.com/v/index.php?area=game&AppId=6910&cc=PT 

I don't know what is sadder, the fact you consider this game intellectual or that you think intellectuality is something that should be pursued in spite of all other aspects of gameplay or story telling.

 Why is that sad? Do you think every game should be mindless brain rotting entertainment? o you think there should not exist documentary movie, historical films? Psychological films? If not, then why houln;t there exist an array of games that while using the medium given gameplay as a basis for it's preentation focuses on intellectual rather than  enterainment issues. Games such as English translation for DS, Cooking mama (which while not intellectual focues on education as well) a well as brain training and others. Philosophical game should be an option as well.

It's not sad if it's done well. Problem is, MGS2's ending was not done well. You can't push a philosophy at the expense of story and gameplay. You can work it in but at some level, you have failed as a storyteller if you go into lengthy (and bullshit IMO) exposition about WTF is going on.

@rocketpig
Philosophy is clumsy, awkward, tactless, indiscreet, oppressive and harsh.

Criticising MGS2 for being pretensious or excessively verbose is legitimate enough, but to hurl accusations of pseudo-intellectualism is perhaps a little unfair, and the comparison to Kubrick is tenuous at best. Kubrick's work is typically about the nature of man and never touches on the aspects of postmodern theory that Kojima broaches. They are closer to the kind of ideas outlined in some of Cronenberg's best work. Actually, that comparison is pretty weak too, but it is certainly a lot more apt than Kubrick.

You may (justifiably) find the humorous elements such as Snake hiding from enemies in cardboard boxes and looking at titty magazines to cure nausea out of place, but like it or not, that incongruity is a fairly typical symptom of postmodern aesthetics, perfectly in tune with themes adressed throughout the game. In that sense they can be seen as completely consistent.

The fact that you make reference to the likes of Descartes suggests to me that you are not really engaging with the areas of philosophical thought that Kojima brings to the fore. Cogito ergo sum won't cover it. It isn't Blade Runner.

(NB/ Bioshock says nothing of objectivism, but Rand's particular brand of philosophical theory lacks intellectual rigour anyway.)

@Borkachev
That dialogue makes perfect sense. It is a discussion of moral relativism. Context. Personally, I thought that was made pretty clear. Don't assume that just because you don't understand it that the author didn't either.

@The_vagabond7
Don't bring The Matrix into this. Anyone with a basic knowledge of the ideas discussed in those movies knows that the Wachowski brothers hadn't got a fucking clue what they were talking about. Baudrillard himself confirmed this. Kojima clearly has a much firmer grip on his subject, whether you find the ponderous dialogue appealing or not.

@Onimusha12
You don't think elements of realism should be tackled in fantasy games? Perhaps you would prefer them to be entirely abstract? Kojima is not "retranslating Neiztche (sic) for the upper 1% eschellon (sic) of intellectuals". It is more like McLuhan for the upper 10%. Maybe, just maybe, there are things that you don't quite grasp... such as the term "ham-fisted".

@shio
Deus Ex was a lot simpler than MGS2 (as is clear from the snippet of dialogue you posted) and Oblivion is still widely regarded as the best RPG for the past couple of years, despite it's flaws.

@SlorgNet
I obviously didn't get the memo about the Matrix sequels being cold war action movies!

 Wow, someone give this guy a medal!  He actually knows what he is talking about and doesn't just throw around philosophical buzzwords and names of famous cinematic artists like Kubrick!  I am not well-versed in post-modernism because I gravitate towards modern and pre-20th century philosophers, but Played_Out has handled this topic more maturely than everyone else in this thread, including myself.

MGS2 is pretentious I agree, but most great art is a little pretentious.  If gaming is ever categorized by Western academia and subdivided into authors, etc., Kojima will be one of the biggest names in gaming, along with Miyamoto and the other greats.

Well since were in the subject of MGS2, why does snake age in MGS4? And why is raiden a cyborg in MGS4?