There's a huge amount of over-exaggeration in this thread. The true philosophical discussion/bullshit only comes into the game in the last half hour. If you cannot enjoy MGS2 because of its last half hour, or call it 'similar to being raped' then you obviously have never played a bad game.

It's a fact that game storylines have a long way to come compared to any other media format, but shooting a game down for trying to do something more than the 'SPACE MARINE SHOOT ALIEN' or 'orphaned child seeks revenge' clichés annoys me greatly.

Apart from that this thread reeks of anti-sony fanboyism.

I wouldn't go as far as some of you. I think MGS2 deserved the scores it got. Gameplay-wise, it was basically MGS1 with improvements all around. The graphics, music, and voice acting (well, maybe not Quinton Flynn) were all fantastic. The only place it faltered was in story, and story isn't essential to an action game. Hell, even in an RPG a bad story is easily forgiven if everything else is good.

I would call it anti-Konamism more than anything. I'll play MGS4 but I'm not going to buy it until I find out whether Kojima pulled a MGS2 on me or not.

I mentioned earlier that the gameplay wasn't bad, though Raiden annoyed the shit out of me. Outside of the story and Raiden, I have no problems with the game.

And we're not saying that games shouldn't try to be more than "See Space Marine, Shoot Alien", we just want the more complex stories not to suck. After all, you don't see threads starting up talking about how terrible Deus Ex's story was. 

Maybe you people should read more philosophy books. I assure you they are all extremely abstract an complex making it difficult to understand the concept behind the words. MGS2 is also complex, but tackling the issues of Identity, universal vs subject truths, "self", memes, what to pass on and a lot more is far deeper than what any film of game does. MGS3 had it's philosophical content stripped down too far.

 You people should read the Texas profesors essay (regardless of spelling it is good content) and James Howels analysis to comprehend the scope of the game.

While the ending was the straw that broke the camel's back there were many other factors that crippled the game.

The story was bland and awkward.

The characters in the game were at best, bazaar and clumsy, at worst, boring and two-dimentional.

The game forced itself to try and recapture the feel of its predicessor. The character's unique quirks and unconventionality were forced and hand-fisted. The story itself even revolved around trying to duplicate the events of the first game.

MGS2 was like Blair Witch Project 2, it acted as if the first MGS was something that didn't even happen in the same world, that it was some holy prophecy that everything in MGS2 had to revolve around.

For the record, I played this game for the first time convinced my friends' hatred of it was fanboyish and unfounded. I played this game for the first time eager to find reasons to like it. No matter how hard I tried to force myself to like this game, I just couldn't do it.

 Deus ex didn't teach me about identity, memes, truths, self, what to pass on, censorship, freedom, society.

Well isn't that convenient, an excuse that doesn't rely on any objective reasoning, just the acusation that its too complicated for the critics to grasp.

Even if there was any credibility to this statement maybe Kojima should have taken into account he was making a game for entertainment, not retranslating Neiztche for the upper 1% eschellon of intellectuals.

When did he ay he was making the game for entertainment purposes? That's your own assumption that got you riled up without any basis fort. MGS has always been foremost movie, game second. Kojima even admits to that. Eventhough movies are dubbed an entertainment medium I wouldn't consider national geographic, history channel, etc entertaining as much as educational. Not every game must be entertaining. some games can and should provide social, political, philosophical messages before gameplay or entertainment as that is what provides the industry with variety. We have enough games for entertainment already, play one of those others like me would prefer some brain food in our games instead.

Oh dear oh dear. Where to begin... first of all: sexual violence isn't something to be joked about. It's an awful, appalling thing, which rips people apart for years and years. People who suffer sexual assault have many of the symptoms of people damaged by war -- shock, stress triggers, panic attacks, depression, disorientation, etc. Let's just not go there.

Back to the point: MGS2 does have real problems as a narrative. The reason is that Kojima just didn't have control over his materials - the characters weren't sufficiently fleshed out, the conspiracies are too bizarre, and Raiden's own traumatic past isn't believable. We're just not given enough information about the characters to make us care.

Compare that to MGS, and the power and punch of the scene with Sniper Wolf, or the astounding scenes and plot-twists in MGS3. Heck, the back story between The Boss and The Sorrow was worth the price of admission alone. In the end, MGS2 felt, to me, exactly like the VR simulator it was designed to critique. Kind of like how the Matrix sequels (shudder) turned into the stodgy, lead-footed Cold War action film the original Matrix transcended.

Judging by everything we've seen, though, MGS4 gets the characters right and gets the issue of war and trauma right, so it should be an incredible game.

Characters weren't fleshed out? What do you call the Cobra unit then?