Forums - Gaming Discussion - Horizon budget is at least 45 million Euro, 250 dev team

CGI-Quality said:
Imaginedvl said:

Well then; we are just arguing about what "you" or "I" consider scale and this is a dead end :)

Because yes, what I said were "facts" and everything I said is just bigger in the Whitcher 3 (or have more diversity/categories), I did not make up anything. That's at least my definition of scale.

Only thing that may be argued is the size of the map actually, the rest are just plain numbers.

You weren't accused of making anything up. 

Next, of course it's mostly a numbers game - but that helps what I'm saying. Without anything definitive, you can't say one is so much bigger than the other. You also changed your tune on map size (which plays a substantial role in the scope of things). Ultimately, scale can continue to be disputed (which I think is awesome, given the excellence of both titles).

Like what (other than the map, which can be very sujbective after all). I presented that: 

- Items
- Quest count (and this is actually by FAR lower than the Whitcher 3, esp. for side quests)
- NPCs
- Crafting system (way less recipes and ingredients and crafting options)
- Skill system (way less skills)

And I fail to see how can anyone argue in a different direction for "most of what I presented" other than preferring one way or another (I prefer the way Horizon does it, it does not mean I can argue the scale of it)...

And regarding the map, I did not change my tone; I'm just telling that there is no number to back it so yah you could argue and disagree with it but I think believe it is bigger based on my gameplay.



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Imaginedvl said:
CGI-Quality said:

You weren't accused of making anything up. 

Next, of course it's mostly a numbers game - but that helps what I'm saying. Without anything definitive, you can't say one is so much bigger than the other. You also changed your tune on map size (which plays a substantial role in the scope of things). Ultimately, scale can continue to be disputed (which I think is awesome, given the excellence of both titles).

Like what (other than the map, which can be very sujbective after all). I presented that: 

- Items
- Quest count (and this is actually by FAR lower than the Whitcher 3, esp. for side quests)
- NPCs
- Crafting system (way less recipes and ingredients and crafting options)
- Skill system (way less skills)

And I fail to see how can anyone argue in a different direction for "most of what I presented" other than preferring one way or another (I prefer the way Horizon does it, it does not mean I can argue the scale of it)...

And regarding the map, I did not change my tone; I'm just telling that there is no number to back it so yah you could argue and disagree with it but I think believe it is bigger based on my gameplay.

Scale signifies weight. If you're saying one thing is bigger than something else, that means it is measurable. I've not argued that one is bigger than the other. It's totally possible that The Witcher III is much bigger. My point has just been that, unless there's an official breakdown of the two, we really have no full proof way of knowing. 



                                                                                                             

CGI-Quality said:
Imaginedvl said:

Like what (other than the map, which can be very sujbective after all). I presented that: 

- Items
- Quest count (and this is actually by FAR lower than the Whitcher 3, esp. for side quests)
- NPCs
- Crafting system (way less recipes and ingredients and crafting options)
- Skill system (way less skills)

And I fail to see how can anyone argue in a different direction for "most of what I presented" other than preferring one way or another (I prefer the way Horizon does it, it does not mean I can argue the scale of it)...

And regarding the map, I did not change my tone; I'm just telling that there is no number to back it so yah you could argue and disagree with it but I think believe it is bigger based on my gameplay.

Scale signifies weight. If you're saying one thing is bigger than something else, that means it is measurable. I've not argued that one is bigger than the other. It's totally possible that The Witcher III is much bigger. My point has just been that, unless there's an official breakdown of the two, we really have no full proof way of knowing. 

Well yah, I could break down numbers But I do not feel like it; let's wait for something official.
At the end Horizon is the better game based on my taste anyway :)

Btw, for the map, I did not some research and the Witcher 3 map is 136km2 (just Novegrad) which is massive even in comparison of GTA V (81km2) and Far Cry 4 (46km2) so while I agree with you that we have no clue about Horizon's map, it really looks not as massive to me.



Aura7541 said:
superchunk said:
This is why gaming is going to fail if dev costs are not reduced. (hinting back to other thread on not pushing into 4K gaming yet)

This game requires about 1.2MM sales just to break even. (45MM/$40 earned on $60 game)

That is insane and will likely cause game prices to increase in the near future. But thank goodness we'll get 4K images in the process because that makes the game so much more fun to play.

If it takes 1.2 million to break even, then Guerrilla shouldn't worry so much about not returning a profit. Previews and reviews were for the most part positive, which definitely helped increase consumer interest in the game.

superchunk forgot to account for the marketing budget, so the break even point is going to be higher than 1.2m, although another thing he is forgetting about (DLC and microtransactions, both do not apply to all games) is already allowing developers to earn more money per customer. And that's only game-related spending, special and limited editions toss in non-gaming stuff to make more money.



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RolStoppable said:
Aura7541 said:

If it takes 1.2 million to break even, then Guerrilla shouldn't worry so much about not returning a profit. Previews and reviews were for the most part positive, which definitely helped increase consumer interest in the game.

superchunk forgot to account for the marketing budget, so the break even point is going to be higher than 1.2m, although another thing he is forgetting about (DLC and microtransactions, both do not apply to all games) is already allowing developers to earn more money per customer. And that's only game-related spending, special and limited editions toss in non-gaming stuff to make more money.

Ah right. I forgot that the the costs only referred to development.



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Imaginedvl said:
CGI-Quality said:

To both posts:

Such as? NPC count? World map? Unless stated, no one knows for sure of the differences in scale between the two, so that's where my confusion lies with both of you in this argument.

Well, I gave a short list already. but I can tell you what come to my mind:

- Less item and gear types
- Crafting is way simplier in Hozizon, it is more like Tomb Raider and are just "unlockable" basically for the upgrades
- Same goes with potion (which is part of the crafting menu in Horizon); I mean the Whitcher 3 alchemy stuff is just ridiculous tho :)
- Talent tree is smaller and super simple (not a bad thing in term of gameplay, but it is just smaller)
- Map is just not as big as Witcher 3
- For the story, so far I really like Horizon' story (not going to spoil) and it is just more aligned to my taste than the Witcher 3 but the number of quests and events is just not comparable to the Whitcher 3 (I'm talking about content yes). Not going to give you number but for instance in the first zone, I had like 4 (If I remember well) side quests only.

So yah, Horizon has less content overall than the Witcher 3.

Again, not saying it is a bad thing and I really like Horizon way more than the Witcher 3, but the "scale" is just not the same; everything is just bigger, more complex and more detailled in the Witcher 3.

Honestly when I said "scale" I meant production values. The things I've seen from Horizon don't make it look subpar to W3. As far as open world rpg goes they're in the same league.

superchunk said:
This is why gaming is going to fail if dev costs are not reduced. (hinting back to other thread on not pushing into 4K gaming yet)

This game requires about 1.2MM sales just to break even. (45MM/$40 earned on $60 game)

That is insane and will likely cause game prices to increase in the near future. But thank goodness we'll get 4K images in the process because that makes the game so much more fun to play.

This reads like a post from 2010. Have you been sleeping the past 7 years? These types of budgets have been common since the PS360 era. We always hear about teams and budgets rising but it appears they have stabilized at the high end of game making.

SpokenTruth said:
Turkish said:

Was $81 million.

That figure includes their marketing spend.  Actual development cost was between $12.6 million and $15 million.

You're quoting an old figure from 2013 when they expected it to cost $40M total. W2 cost $10M to make, they're not gonna make a much grander game on a new engine on a few million more.

Regarding your other post. Lolz, they dont need to sell 5M to break even, where do you think they get the funding from? It's Sony paying and making a return on their investment, not GG.



Turkish said:

Game was in pre-production on a team of 20 for 3 years starting in 2011, after KZSF launched in late 2013, entire studio worked on it. Plus 100 devs in China who created assets from artwork and concepts.

https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?act=url&depth=2&hl=nl&ie=UTF8&nv=1&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=nl&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2017/02/26/hoe-de-grootste-mediaproductie-van-nederland-is-gemaakt-6962270-a1547873&usg=ALkJrhgLM7n-dfAVHhuw1jfACyWivylX6g

Is that true? Wow!

 

It's amazing that budgets and teams like these are becoming the norm for AAA games considering the limited resources studios and teams initially had back "in the day".

Wasn't Mortal Kombat created by 4 guys, lol. Crazy!



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This is probably in the wrong place but in horizon I'm having audio problems with my headset were the sound goes low and back to normal for a second anyone else have this problem?



Imaginedvl said:
Turkish said:
Interesting that GG was able to make a game on a scale of Witcher 3 with less people and a smaller budget! I also like that Horizon has much more variety in environments, from snowey mountains to forests to grand canyon type areas. W3 felt almost the same the whole game until Blood and Wine.

I do not think this is close to a comparison here...

I have the game (and played it all day yesterday) and yes, Horizon Dawn is a very good game (I really like it); but you cannot compare it to the Witcher 3 in term of scale. While the map is huge, everything is just not at the same level than Witcher 3; let's be honest.

Some Horizon concepts are closer (in term of simplicity) to Tomb Raider for instance (the crafting system, the map and location diversity, story and dialogs, etc...) while the Witcher 3 is way more detailled and defined in all areas. Only area I would put Horizon first (but this is based on my taste) are the combat, I really like it (the traps, the cable stuff, etc..) this is really cool to play. Not even mentionning the Witcher 3 is multiplatform.

I'm not a big fan of the Witcher 3 (and I really like Horizon) but you cannot honestly say that the scale of the game is the same... You can see the difference in budget when you play both games. I'm not surprised about the budget being almost half of the Witcher 3 and you can see it in the game.

All in one, Horizon is a great awesome game, defintely an highlight of the Play Station Four imo. This is the game that made me play with my Play Station Four more than 1 hour after all :)

HZD has much more depth than TW3 and that's only after a few hours of play in one area after spending 50 plus in TW3. That is a fact. The scale is both horizontal and vertical (which TW3 does not have) so HZD has much more scale including the size of the enemies and detail of everything.



superchunk said:
This is why gaming is going to fail if dev costs are not reduced. (hinting back to other thread on not pushing into 4K gaming yet)

This game requires about 1.2MM sales just to break even. (45MM/$40 earned on $60 game)

That is insane and will likely cause game prices to increase in the near future. But thank goodness we'll get 4K images in the process because that makes the game so much more fun to play.

Games like these keep gaming successful and is the definitive gaming experience. It really pushes the hardware in everyway as no game with a smaller budget could. I am getting every pennies worth with a game of this quality.