By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Gaming - Switch is where the Industry should be by now

BeatdownBrigade said:
sc94597 said:

The indie scene is only so popular because the middleware market has been demolished. There is only AAA and indie, nothing in between. 

The middleware market is completely fine. Its just developing for PC now. And its not developing for PC because the console graphics arms race is getting too extreme. Its because the arms race is behind on tech. It costs a hell of a lot more money to develop a game to try to look decent on low quality machines than it does to make a game look decent on good machines.  Whatever it cost them to develop Zelda they could have done for probably half the cost on a PC and it'd be a better game in the end.

The costs have very little to do with optimization and much to do with producing high quality assets (by hiring proper artists.) The higher quality the visuals, the higher quality the assets must be. Middleware is successful on PC's because PC gaming has a wide-range of system performance. 



Around the Network
pokoko said:
sc94597 said:

This ignores the economics of video game development. A game is more than pure visual fidelity maximization. There are other parts of the game that need to be funded and resolved. Since publishers and developers don't have infinite resources, there must be trade-offs, and sometimes the trade-offs mean that the game won't push the boundaries in terms of asset quality, but might in others ways. The argument being made is that publishers have grown complacent and know that if they release the same game with better assets it will still sell quite a bit, while the developers who want to create something new suffer in a market where the standard is always for the maximization of asset quality. 

The frustration is not so different with that found in the movie industry, currently. Many moviegoers complain that the superhero and other action films with simplistic and complacent stories get tons of resources, while more thoughtful story-heavy films that might not have the best assets get the shaft. 

That's really just a lot of supposition.  If we stop at the Switch instead of the PS4, there would basically be no difference except with the visuals for high-end games.  It wouldn't suddenly lead to more innovation and it wouldn't have much of an effect on the budgets of most projects.  

Last gen, developers ran into the limits of the PS3/360 very quickly.  What was the gain in innovation?  Why would stopping at the Switch now, which is stronger than both, be different?

If anything, developers said that the limits, especially in terms of memory, held them back from doing what they wanted with level design.

It has much less to do with the hardware itself, and much more to do with the unrealistic demands of the consumers fueled by misguided publishers. There is nothing wrong with having powerful systems which push the boundaries. The problem is when gamers demand that every platform AND every game must cater to the top and cutting edge in visual fidelity at the expense of other aspects of the game and other boundaries. The Switch is good for the industry because it is a platform friendly to a variety of publishers and developers regardless of their ability to leverage capital or mitigate risk, just as dedicated handhelds and PC have that role. 

As for limitations to level design, AI, physics, this seems to be a marginal excuse. I haven't seen anything spectacular this generation in these areas, with possibly the exception of the way physics is handled. In the future this might be different, but all of these things are cpu-bound, and I don't see hardware manufacturers buffing up the CPU's in the systems (the PS4/XBO have low-end AMD Jaguar chips.) 



FentonCrackshell said:
vivster said:
So you're saying Nintendo is too incompetent to produce a game with great graphics and good gameplay?

They can. But they don't want to because there's no innovation in it. 

It would certainly be an innovation for Nintendo.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

Boutros said:
sc94597 said:

Sure, but doesn't that bolster the OP's point with the Switch being a good thing? 

The Switch is a home console according to Nintendo. Nintendo also confirmed that they will continue support of the 3DS. That means if not production values what is the real difference between the 3DS and the Switch? Sounds to me like the 3DS is a more affordable device where games are smaller in scale and can be sold at a lower price (essentially middleware titles). So there's still a dedicated place for middleware games in the industry.

Nintendo also said that they would continue to support the GBA after the release of the DS since the two were supposedly going after different markets. That support lasted for all of three months or so. I wouldn't put much faith in Nintendo supporting the 3DS past this year. Doesn't make much business sense either; producing and actively supporting two gaming devices that can be played on the go is competing with yourself.

The Switch will likely take over the 3DS's role as the console of choice for middleware games, which is what puts it in a much better position than, say, the Wii U. The Wii U was stuck in a catch 22, in that very few quality games were made for it since very few people owned it, and very few people bought the machine because developers weren't creating games for it. Assuming the Switch is ultimately the 3DS's successor, it avoids that Catch 22 by making itself home to popular middleware titles that carried the 3DS like Pokemon, Monster Hunter, Animal Crossing, and Fire Emblem. At the very worst, the Switch occupies the niche of middleware titles with first party AAA Nintendo games and the occasional AAA third party title.

TL;DR, there is a dedicated place for middleware games, it'll just be the Switch, unless Nintendo has abandoned all common sense (which, given their approach to stocking items, might just be the case).



Valdath said:
SWORDF1SH said:
But with the PS4 I get a selection of all types of games with all types of budgets with all type of art styles. I'm not sure I would want weaker harder and narrow down what types of game could be available to me.

Can you milk cows on the PS4?

Checkmate

 

Well... Ummm... 

Ok you win!! 



Around the Network
m_csquare said:
Goodnightmoon said:

And why to be on the highest level of competition you need only better cutting edge tecnology? why is that not decided by the quality of the gameplay, the creativity of the concepts, the skill to make great levle design etc? Because that needs actual talent, passion, soul and many companies want just tons of money without risk, they make the games shinier and than the rest and that's it. This is not a sport, this is not about numbers only, videogames are closer to art but they can be heavily restrained by corporative interests and often valorated as just technology when they are more.

Post like this always make my eyes roll. Play more genres maybe?

 

Do you think ppl would prefer 30fps over 60fps for fighting game?

Do you think ppl would prefer horrible physic over real-life physic for racing simulator?

Or lower fps for tactical shooter, and every single sport game?

People demand those things!

 

It's funny you keep criticizing cutting edge technology when your favorite company keeps boasting abt their 3d screen and new switch vibrator. A cutting edge technology which most ppl dont even use.

 

I'm just gon restate what some ppl here have been saying. Better hardware doesnt limit creativity. It's like people forget stardew valley, minecraft, binding of isaac, undertale were firstly developed for the most powerful hardware in the world

Oh please, since when do you need cutting edge tech to make a 60fps fighting game? WiU had the best one of the gen at 1080p 60fps lol and is the weaker by a margin, GC had a bunch of impressive 60fps games already

Physics you say, new Zelda on WiiU has a very complex system of physics for the wind, it didnt need 4Gflops for that 

Then again the fps argument makes no sense, the fps depends of how demanding the rest of the game is, you can make everything run at 60fps with the right optimization and priorities.

And now you come with the HD rumble argument that is the worst of them all because it makes it look like you didnt undetrstand nothing, the HDRumble is not something that will waste half of your resources to make a game, is barely a detail, probably a very cool one but is not restraining videogame creativity in any way and is not gonna make you waste half of your budget on just that when making a game, is like complaining about the tactil surface on the Ps4 gamepad, so what? How is that affecting badly videogame development? Is just a cool detail.

As for the last sentence.... yeah all indies, exactly what I was saying before, the pretty graphics gets all the resources, the talent however is represented by guys doing 16bits games with barely no money and selling it for like 10 bucks, yeah, wonderful, totally balanced lol



FentonCrackshell said:
bunchanumbers said:
Seriously? Nintendo practically invented the arms race when they made sure SNES was more powerful than Genesis, showed off the 64 bit graphics of the N64 over the PlayStation and made sure that GCN could go toe to toe with Xbox and PlayStation.

Don't remind Nintendo fans of this fact. It sucks to know you're losing a fight you practically started. 

Especially if you remind them of the fact they basically gave birth to playstation by rejecting Sony's aid in the hardware department. That didn't turn out very well to say in the least.



Please excuse my (probally) poor grammar

Goodnightmoon said:
SWORDF1SH said:

I'm sorry but that is compeletely wrong. Indies thrive on XB1 and PS4. This is why there's been a surge of indies games coming to console over the last 10 years. 

I'm talking about what big companies try to do and how gamers tend to behave. Indies are not the new middleware, only in some occasions can count like that, most of the times are extremelly low budget games with some notable exceptions, seems like there is only place for little independent studios doing creative but very low budget games or big studios making extremelly expensive but generic games.

Again, I disagree. Your perception of games available on PS4/XB1 seems a little off. It's not like that.

 



Puppyroach said:

First off, let me clarify that I really like the X1/PS4, they are quite powerful systems that produce some fantastic graphics. But this arms race that has existed around graphics capability and more and more capable hardware has accelerated the cost for making games and has created an unreasonable level of risk-taking for studios.

There is no doubt that the Switch is far less capable compared to gaming PCs and PS4/X1 but it still produces excellent graphics, has an interesting style and controller interface and pushes the industry with other innovations besides graphics hardware.

So I would claim that we should see a stagnation in evolution of hardware in favour of a larger focus on keeping costs down and lower the risk-taking in creating games. That way we might see even more innovation in gaming and less focus on hunting PC levels of hardware all the time.

I agree with the sentiment but no, we're not at the sweet spot of graphical capabilities yet.

Nintendos art design is clearly hampered by technical limitations of the Switch. Games like Mario Odyssey look jaggied af and Splatoon 2 is 720p docked. Their games will clearly benefit from being 1080p and have nice AA on them.

You can only do so much with cheap hardware. Nintendo could have given us good specs for the current price point, but no, it had to have some gimmick controls. Nearly 1/3 of the cost goes to JoyCons.



While I agree that the PS and Xbox brand are sort of stuck in the mud when it comes to changing it up, I don't agree that the Switch is providing the right alternative. Chasing tablet customers and, once again, shitting on online aspects in favor of local multiplayer, is not terribly clever, nor is it what the vast majority of the market wants. And Nintendo are continuing their tradition of grossly overpaid peripherals and accessories (and will likely continue to charge crazy for their games for a long time, full price after two years on the market is unacceptable today), and their recent insistence of charging a high premium for relatively poor performance hardware, this is most certainly not where the industry should be in that regard.
With publishers fleecing us on DLC and microtransactions, ridiculous pre-order bonuses and other tosh, we certainly don't want crazy prices on all accessories and never ending hiked prices on base software in addition.

I'm all for doing things differently, both in hardware and software (I remember playing Zenoclash and being blown away by the atmosphere and feel of the thing), but being different doesn't always mean good news. Not simply chasing better graphics is fine (I actually wrote about my disappointment over this in the UNITY thread), but the Switch is not the antidote.