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Forums - Nintendo - I flew too close to the 1TF sun and my Switch wings melted.

curl-6 on 22 December 2016
spemanig said:
curl-6 said:

I think you're massively overestimating the appeal of Switch. Console type games on the go was tried with the Vita, it's not a big selling point.

Switch stands with one foot in the console red ocean and another in the mobile red ocean. It can't beat its competitors in either, so it's best shot is to try to just carve out enough of a share of the two to scrape by.

Vita didn't have console multiplats, so portability didn't matter. The appeal of portability is being able to play multiplats untethered. If the Switch becomes known for indie games and niche japanese games, its portability won't matter either. It also didn't dock to a television.

I'm not overestimating the appeal of the Switch, Curl. Respectfully, you're massively underestimating it. Your problem is that you think the Switch exists in a red ocean when, in fact, its existing in a blue ocean. No console has ever been able to do what the Switch is marketing itself as doing. That has never existed before.

The Switch is introducing laptops into a market where only desktops and smartphones have ever existed.

I cannot communicate its value more clearly than that. Switch beats PS4's and XBO's ass when it comes to convenience. Most people are not gaming enthisiasts, and those are the only people specs appeal to. Enthusiasts. In the market we're in not, owning a home console was the most convenient, accessible place to play most traditional video games. If the Switch gets multiplats, it will be that place. It's why laptops are more popular than desktops. It's why I'm using my laptop right now. Because I can't type this post on a desktop and I can't easily go wherever I want on a desktop.

I just bought a new Macbook Pro for work. Think about that. If I care about doing computing tasks well, why would I not buy a stronger desktop? Because I don't care. A laptop is good enough for what I want to do with it, and I value the flexibility of use far more than what the added power of a stationary form factor would afford me. And I'm not alone. Most people feel that way. Most people will buy a laptop over a desktop without thinking twice because that convenience is more valuable, and that's not exclusive to computers.

That dynamic has never existed before in consoles. Consoles have always been at the high end while handhelds have always been at the low end with completely different software. There has never been that laptop experience for consoles. That's the Switch's blue ocean, and that should not be underestimated.

And again, its success will depend on a lot of factors. I don't think that what the Switch offers conseptually is enough. It needs good implementation. But good implementation does not mean better hardware. It means getting multiplats so that its value proposition actually has value and having that trio of success - popularity, convenience, and accessibility.

I still think you're massively overselling the value of a device that straddles two crowded markets and offers less as a console than PS4/Xbone and less convenience than a phone for gaming on the go, but I guess the only all-knowing judge is time. Let's check back in come 2018 and see where we're at.



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AngryLittleAlchemist on 22 December 2016
curl-6 said:

You are right about one thing, I am leaning negative, but that's because I find Nintendo fans tend to lean overly positive, so I tend to play devil's advocate to that. It's a bad habit of mine.

AngryLittleAlchemist said:

No. No one ever said it was "easy to develop for" for it's engine support or for it's OS or for it's scalability - they said it because it was a powerful system that was more powerful than the Playstation and Xbox 360. It was a lie, yes, but they weren't exactly stating a complete non truth, it WAS more powerful it just wasn't easy to develop for because so. 

I'm pretty sure that developers saying "Nintendo switch is easy to develop for because it supports all modern engines, has scalability, exclusive Nvidia technologies, and has a less taxing OS" isn't a marketing ploy by Nintendo and their supporters. None of that speaks to casual consumers like talk of "POWERFUL GRAPHIX" do. 

You aren't saying all is lost but i think you're also being a little bit ingenous. You're saying your just doing it for disappointments sake but you're complaining ENTIRELY. I've complained a lot on this forumn but there's a positive and negative balance and you're leaning so negatively that it's hard to believe you're doing it so no one is disappointed. People are already so disappointed, if anything i excpect people to be surprised come january 12th. 

http://www.theverge.com/2012/2/1/2763225/nintendo-wii-u-easy-to-develop-for-team-ninja

http://n4g.com/news/1434301/former-resistance-and-skylanders-developer-says-nintendo-made-the-wii-u-easy-to-develop-on

http://mynintendonews.com/2012/10/19/wii-u-is-surprisingly-easy-to-develop-for/

http://wiiudaily.com/2012/07/indie-dev-wii-u-easy-develop/

http://www.gonintendo.com/s/224211-cosmos-x2-dev-praises-wii-u-finds-it-easy-to-work-with

http://www.lazygamer.net/pc-gaming/wii-u-is-easy-to-develop-for-and-can-push-1080p/

http://www.360haven.com/forums/threads/8408-The-Wii-U-is-very-easy-to-develop-for-say-Darksiders-2-developers

Wow....not to be rude but these are VERY TERRIBLE sources.

 

First of all, just like I said most of these are about the resolution. Hell, one of them is in the URL. 2 or 3 of the sources just sued the fact that the resolution was 1080p to say it was easy to develop for. And that makes a little sense - it was nearly impossible for xbox 360 and ps3 to run native 1080 on new triple a games. But that's not the same thing as engine support or OS's. 

Also, a lot of these are from indie developers(again talking about resolution). One even uses resolution and "lack of limitations on eshop" for easy development. 

One of your sources is also removed, AND TEAM NINJA partnered with Nintendo for a METROID title. Come on now. 



AngryLittleAlchemist on 22 December 2016

Again though, none of these are Bethesda and I know the Bethesda argument has a few wholes in it, but yes, it IS STILL for the most part a solid argument. Bethesda doesn't really seem like the kind of community that just gets bought off for a bit of praise and if Nintendo is as disconnected as you think they are they wouldn't go to bethesda for a free ass kiss to begin with. Bethesda genuinely sees a market for the Switch and are supporting it. Is it a bit scary that we aren't seeing Fallout 4? Maybe...but Fallout 4 isn't nearly as popular as skyrim and skyrim is literally the only concept most gamers have been hyped for in recent memory when it comes to RPGs.



curl-6 on 22 December 2016
AngryLittleAlchemist said:
curl-6 said:

You are right about one thing, I am leaning negative, but that's because I find Nintendo fans tend to lean overly positive, so I tend to play devil's advocate to that. It's a bad habit of mine.

http://www.theverge.com/2012/2/1/2763225/nintendo-wii-u-easy-to-develop-for-team-ninja

http://n4g.com/news/1434301/former-resistance-and-skylanders-developer-says-nintendo-made-the-wii-u-easy-to-develop-on

http://mynintendonews.com/2012/10/19/wii-u-is-surprisingly-easy-to-develop-for/

http://wiiudaily.com/2012/07/indie-dev-wii-u-easy-develop/


http://www.lazygamer.net/pc-gaming/wii-u-is-easy-to-develop-for-and-can-push-1080p/

http://www.360haven.com/forums/threads/8408-The-Wii-U-is-very-easy-to-develop-for-say-Darksiders-2-developers

Wow....not to be rude but these are VERY TERRIBLE sources.

 

First of all, just like I said most of these are about the resolution. Hell, one of them is in the URL. 2 or 3 of the sources just sued the fact that the resolution was 1080p to say it was easy to develop for. And that makes a little sense - it was nearly impossible for xbox 360 and ps3 to run native 1080 on new triple a games. But that's not the same thing as engine support or OS's. 

Also, a lot of these are from indie developers(again talking about resolution). One even uses resolution and "lack of limitations on eshop" for easy development. 

One of your sources is also removed, AND TEAM NINJA partnered with Nintendo for a METROID title. Come on now. 

Did you read the sources? You have at least 5 developers right there saying Wii U is easy to develop for.



Frogger on 22 December 2016
curl-6 said:

I still think you're massively overselling the value of a device that straddles two crowded markets and offers less as a console than PS4/Xbone and less convenience than a phone for gaming on the go, but I guess the only all-knowing judge is time. Let's check back in come 2018 and see where we're at.

It doesn't straddle two markets. No one complains about a laptop being weaker than a desktop and no one complains about a laptop being less portable than a phone. It's a different thing. This is exactly why I hate that the internet dubbed this thing a hybrid. It's not. It's something separate. It's a portable home console.

But you're right. Time is the wisest judge. This could be for moot anyway because so much can go wrong, starting with multiplatform support.



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AngryLittleAlchemist on 22 December 2016
curl-6 said:
AngryLittleAlchemist said:

Wow....not to be rude but these are VERY TERRIBLE sources.

 

First of all, just like I said most of these are about the resolution. Hell, one of them is in the URL. 2 or 3 of the sources just sued the fact that the resolution was 1080p to say it was easy to develop for. And that makes a little sense - it was nearly impossible for xbox 360 and ps3 to run native 1080 on new triple a games. But that's not the same thing as engine support or OS's. 

Also, a lot of these are from indie developers(again talking about resolution). One even uses resolution and "lack of limitations on eshop" for easy development. 

One of your sources is also removed, AND TEAM NINJA partnered with Nintendo for a METROID title. Come on now. 

Did you read the sources? You have at least 5 developers right there saying Wii U is easy to develop for.

On the contrary, it seems like the most you wanted was for me NOT to read the articles. Most of them are of indie devs who have had a history of creating titles for Nintendo consoles that sold well on one of the best selling consoles of all time with some of the highest count of shovelware being successful. How is that relatable to a company like Bethesda who has never given attention from Nintendo or gotten attention from them? 

And how is a indie game comparable to a full blown triple A product? 

And yes, I did read the artciles, but in most of them the most specific they got was "it can hit 1080p well". Some were extremely non specific to the point where you got literally no info out of them at all. How is that comparable to "this switch console supports all new engines and has a less taxing os than xbox and playstation". How is that comparable? 

Come on now. This is mostly graphics talk or  talk of "thank you nintendo for not limiting my eshop indie titles". This is like trying to put a horse shoe on a panda bear, it doesn't make sense.



Soundwave on 22 December 2016
spemanig said:
curl-6 said:

I still think you're massively overselling the value of a device that straddles two crowded markets and offers less as a console than PS4/Xbone and less convenience than a phone for gaming on the go, but I guess the only all-knowing judge is time. Let's check back in come 2018 and see where we're at.

It doesn't straddle two markets. No one complains about a laptop being weaker than a desktop and no one complains about a laptop being less portable than a phone. It's a different thing. This is exactly why I hate that the internet dubbed this thing a hybrid. It's not. It's something separate. It's a portable home console.

But you're right. Time is the wisest judge. This could be for moot anyway because so much can go wrong, starting with multiplatform support.

It doesn't straddle two markets because Nintendo has basically rendered themselves irrelevant in the console market. This is mainly going to sell to 3DS owners which is what 85% of Nintendo's hardware base is whittled down to. This is not something someone is going to buy to replace their PS4 other than a very niche part of the market. 



curl-6 on 22 December 2016
AngryLittleAlchemist said:
curl-6 said:

Did you read the sources? You have at least 5 developers right there saying Wii U is easy to develop for.

On the contrary, it seems like the most you wanted was for me NOT to read the articles. Most of them are of indie devs who have had a history of creating titles for Nintendo consoles that sold well on one of the best selling consoles of all time with some of the highest count of shovelware being successful. How is that relatable to a company like Bethesda who has never given attention from Nintendo or gotten attention from them? 

And how is a indie game comparable to a full blown triple A product? 

And yes, I did read the artciles, but in most of them the most specific they got was "it can hit 1080p well". Some were extremely non specific to the point where you got literally no info out of them at all. How is that comparable to "this switch console supports all new engines and has a less taxing os than xbox and playstation". How is that comparable? 

Come on now. This is mostly graphics talk or  talk of "thank you nintendo for not limiting my eshop indie titles". This is like trying to put a horse shoe on a panda bear, it doesn't make sense.

"The game's director, Fumihiko Yasuda, told Nintendo Gamer the console was "very easy to develop for"" (Ninja Gaiden 3 dev)

“@jimmyelgringito: How was it developing the game for Wii U? Is the Wii U easy to develop for?” The coders found it easier than expected!" 

“Technically, it’s one of the easier platforms to develop for. We had our core game up and running on it in a very short amount of time. There were no major problems for us developing the Wii U version, other than making sure we had a dedicated team to do it justice. For a new platform, it was surprisingly easy to port it to the Wii U.” (Darksiders II dev)

"A good thing about Wii U is that it's very easy to develop for." (Shin'en)



AngryLittleAlchemist on 22 December 2016
curl-6 said:
AngryLittleAlchemist said:

On the contrary, it seems like the most you wanted was for me NOT to read the articles. Most of them are of indie devs who have had a history of creating titles for Nintendo consoles that sold well on one of the best selling consoles of all time with some of the highest count of shovelware being successful. How is that relatable to a company like Bethesda who has never given attention from Nintendo or gotten attention from them? 

And how is a indie game comparable to a full blown triple A product? 

And yes, I did read the artciles, but in most of them the most specific they got was "it can hit 1080p well". Some were extremely non specific to the point where you got literally no info out of them at all. How is that comparable to "this switch console supports all new engines and has a less taxing os than xbox and playstation". How is that comparable? 

Come on now. This is mostly graphics talk or  talk of "thank you nintendo for not limiting my eshop indie titles". This is like trying to put a horse shoe on a panda bear, it doesn't make sense.

"The game's director, Fumihiko Yasuda, told Nintendo Gamer the console was "very easy to develop for"" (Ninja Gaiden 3 dev)

“@jimmyelgringito: How was it developing the game for Wii U? Is the Wii U easy to develop for?” The coders found it easier than expected!" 

“Technically, it’s one of the easier platforms to develop for. We had our core game up and running on it in a very short amount of time. There were no major problems for us developing the Wii U version, other than making sure we had a dedicated team to do it justice. For a new platform, it was surprisingly easy to port it to the Wii U.” (Darksiders II dev)

"A good thing about Wii U is that it's very easy to develop for." (Shin'en)

From your own articles : 

"Nintendo took pains this time to make the Wii U easier to develop for, guys. That report is based on really really old info." Is this even a positive post I mean it sounds like he's saying their lying that's really quite unclear.

 

Team Ninja - The makers behind Metroid Other M. Great source bud.

"Indie developer Shin’en Multimedia has made about two dozen small titles for various Nintendo platforms over the years, and they’re fully supporting the Wii U as well. In an interview with SuperPhillip, Shin’en’s Manfred Linzner said that the Wii U was not only very easy to develop for, but it doesn’t have many of the limitations that current generation consoles have." 

To clarify - in this article, he says that the ONLY IMPROVEMENTS he's scene is his own personal improvement at developing for the system, not support from Nintendo. He basically just says that they're getting better at dveloping with it every day, and that they think they've only tapped into 20% of the power. Nothing to do with Nintendo support or ease of use.

"So 60fps at 1080p and easier than ever before, that’s a lot of good news in one twitter stream"

 

Also, you literally used the same developers in 2 different articles - one wasn't even an article but a forumn. What was the point of that?

 

So  let's round this up : Team Ninja - uncredible. One from an indie developer who's made a lot of profit on Wii, and admits that the Wii U isn't easy to develop for. HIS UPDATED THOUGHTS only say that they're learning more about the Wii U everyday, and are impressed that they think they've only unlocked 20% of it's power. One literally is an indie developer just saying we have 60fps 1080. One post doesn't even seem positive(it sounds more like he's being negative towards it...I mean it was posted in jan of 2014 so it's possible). The only great source you provided was from the Darksiders developers.

None of this disproves that the developers are acting differently to switch.



 




Frogger on 22 December 2016
AngryLittleAlchemist said:

Team Ninja - The makers behind Metroid Other M. Great source bud.

I don't agree with Curl, but Team Ninja doesn't stop being credible just because they made a bad game. The issues with Other M weren't even their fault. It was Yoshio Sakamoto, a Nintendo developer.