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Forums - Sports Discussion - The Pro Wrasslin' Thread (WWE, WWF, WCW, TNA, ROH, NWA, NJPW, etc)

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What match are you excited for at WWE Payback 2017?

Neville vs. Austin Aries ... 1 5.88%
 
Randy Orton vs. Bray Wyat... 3 17.65%
 
The Hardy Boyz vs. Cesaro... 3 17.65%
 
Kevin Owens vs. Chris Jer... 4 23.53%
 
Bayley vs. Alexa Bliss (Raw Women's Title) 3 17.65%
 
Seth Rollins vs. Samoa Joe 1 5.88%
 
Roman Reigns vs. Braun Strowman 2 11.76%
 
Total:17
Eagle367 said:
JWeinCom said:

The cinematic matches were a fun experiment during the lockdown era when they couldn't have fans, but there is no reason to keep doing them. Hard to watch someone defend their title in what looks like a high school film class horror movie and then expect us to try and suspend our disbelief for the rest of the show.

I think they have their place. It's just knowing where they are needed and how to do it right. The boneyard match and firefly fun house match couldn't have been better as a traditional match. But forcing them does work. They are required for specific situations just like hell in a cell should be. Don't overuse or misuse them. 

The firefly funhouse match was great, but that's the exception. It worked because it wasn't just an extremely low budget horror film or a goofy pro wrestling spoof skit. It was an interesting metanarrative about Bray Wyatt and John Cena's careers. And, by that point they had eased us in to the weird fourth wall breaking Firefly stuff.

But, none of the others have worked for me. When I watch wrestling I really want to be able to forget it's fake and genuinely care about what's going on. When they do stuff those cinematic matches it takes me out of that, and it's hard to take the next matches seriously when you've just seen something so ridiculous. It's like if in Avengers, they decided to do a big song and dance number before fighting Thanos. Would totally ruin the immersion.



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JWeinCom said:
Eagle367 said:

I think they have their place. It's just knowing where they are needed and how to do it right. The boneyard match and firefly fun house match couldn't have been better as a traditional match. But forcing them does work. They are required for specific situations just like hell in a cell should be. Don't overuse or misuse them. 

The firefly funhouse match was great, but that's the exception. It worked because it wasn't just an extremely low budget horror film or a goofy pro wrestling spoof skit. It was an interesting metanarrative about Bray Wyatt and John Cena's careers. And, by that point they had eased us in to the weird fourth wall breaking Firefly stuff.

But, none of the others have worked for me. When I watch wrestling I really want to be able to forget it's fake and genuinely care about what's going on. When they do stuff those cinematic matches it takes me out of that, and it's hard to take the next matches seriously when you've just seen something so ridiculous. It's like if in Avengers, they decided to do a big song and dance number before fighting Thanos. Would totally ruin the immersion.

But i liked boneyard as a good send-off to taker. Normal match wouldn't work as well. And stadium stampede or anarchy at the arena was fun. As I said, it has its place. I also fondly remember the stone cold booker t fight in the grocery store. Another thing is I love the cheeziness in wrestling. You forget cheesiness is something some people like in wrestling. I love a mix of serious and fun wrestling.



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

Don't like Logan Paul's involvement in WWE at all. Considering that Roman doesn't actually defend the title that often, I'd rather see him defend it against someone serious when he does... but I just kind of have to watch Crown Jewel. Just out of fear that WWE may actually put the title on Paul. I mean obviously they wouldn't... but maybe they will... and I just kind of have to watch to make sure it doesn't happen. Damn you wwe.



JWeinCom said:

Don't like Logan Paul's involvement in WWE at all. Considering that Roman doesn't actually defend the title that often, I'd rather see him defend it against someone serious when he does... but I just kind of have to watch Crown Jewel. Just out of fear that WWE may actually put the title on Paul. I mean obviously they wouldn't... but maybe they will... and I just kind of have to watch to make sure it doesn't happen. Damn you wwe.

I'm watching for the other matches. And bray wyatt. The Bianca Bayley will be match of the night I think.



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

Eagle367 said:
JWeinCom said:

Don't like Logan Paul's involvement in WWE at all. Considering that Roman doesn't actually defend the title that often, I'd rather see him defend it against someone serious when he does... but I just kind of have to watch Crown Jewel. Just out of fear that WWE may actually put the title on Paul. I mean obviously they wouldn't... but maybe they will... and I just kind of have to watch to make sure it doesn't happen. Damn you wwe.

I'm watching for the other matches. And bray wyatt. The Bianca Bayley will be match of the night I think.

I love me some Bailey. Hoping she wins, but don't see it happening. That said, I don't love last woman standing matches, so I'm not as excited as I'd otherwise be.

As for Bray Wyatt... I dunno. I'm interested in the stuff he's been doing, but at some point it has to involve... you know wrestling. He's probably the best promo guy in the company right now, but you can't just do promos every week. I'm getting impatient.

Lesnar vs Lashley could be good. Brock puts on great matches with the right person, but the matches could sometimes also be pretty meh. I'm over the matches where he and his opponent just trade finishers, and feel like this may be one of those.

Aside from that the card is kind of just... there. The Saudi shows are always this weird kind of thing where it feels like they want to do something special, but they also kind of view it as a glorified house show. So, there are a lot of stipulations and matches that sound good on paper, but the build isn't quite there. I'd be on the fence about watching it because I have mixed feelings about the show in general, but I just kind of have to make sure they don't have Paul beat Reigns.

I have a friend who's a wrestling fan I'll be watching this. They're more into AEW, so in return for them watching this, I may watch Full Gear with them. Which I don't necessarily mind, so long as I'm not paying 50 bucks to see it. It's a bit weird though, cause from what I can see there's only two matches confirmed for the show which is a week and a half away. Hoping Daniel Bryan will be on cause it has been a minute since I've seen them.



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JWeinCom said:
Eagle367 said:

I'm watching for the other matches. And bray wyatt. The Bianca Bayley will be match of the night I think.

I love me some Bailey. Hoping she wins, but don't see it happening. That said, I don't love last woman standing matches, so I'm not as excited as I'd otherwise be.

As for Bray Wyatt... I dunno. I'm interested in the stuff he's been doing, but at some point it has to involve... you know wrestling. He's probably the best promo guy in the company right now, but you can't just do promos every week. I'm getting impatient.

Lesnar vs Lashley could be good. Brock puts on great matches with the right person, but the matches could sometimes also be pretty meh. I'm over the matches where he and his opponent just trade finishers, and feel like this may be one of those.

Aside from that the card is kind of just... there. The Saudi shows are always this weird kind of thing where it feels like they want to do something special, but they also kind of view it as a glorified house show. So, there are a lot of stipulations and matches that sound good on paper, but the build isn't quite there. I'd be on the fence about watching it because I have mixed feelings about the show in general, but I just kind of have to make sure they don't have Paul beat Reigns.

I have a friend who's a wrestling fan I'll be watching this. They're more into AEW, so in return for them watching this, I may watch Full Gear with them. Which I don't necessarily mind, so long as I'm not paying 50 bucks to see it. It's a bit weird though, cause from what I can see there's only two matches confirmed for the show which is a week and a half away. Hoping Daniel Bryan will be on cause it has been a minute since I've seen them.

Recently went back to watch some key matches from Lesnar's 2002-2004 run. Holy hell that dude used to genuinely be one of the biggest and best things in the industry. He was so skilled and so explosive and so entertaining even when he was a beastly heel. After seeing his matches with Kurt Angle it just angers me even more that he can't be bothered to put in the work anymore. 

I know a job's a job and most people would LOVE to put in the bare minimum and get paid maximums, but this is an artistic medium, one focused on entertainment. He's not entertaining anymore. Which makes him bad at his job. 



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JWeinCom said:
Eagle367 said:

I'm watching for the other matches. And bray wyatt. The Bianca Bayley will be match of the night I think.

I love me some Bailey. Hoping she wins, but don't see it happening. That said, I don't love last woman standing matches, so I'm not as excited as I'd otherwise be.

As for Bray Wyatt... I dunno. I'm interested in the stuff he's been doing, but at some point it has to involve... you know wrestling. He's probably the best promo guy in the company right now, but you can't just do promos every week. I'm getting impatient.

Lesnar vs Lashley could be good. Brock puts on great matches with the right person, but the matches could sometimes also be pretty meh. I'm over the matches where he and his opponent just trade finishers, and feel like this may be one of those.

Aside from that the card is kind of just... there. The Saudi shows are always this weird kind of thing where it feels like they want to do something special, but they also kind of view it as a glorified house show. So, there are a lot of stipulations and matches that sound good on paper, but the build isn't quite there. I'd be on the fence about watching it because I have mixed feelings about the show in general, but I just kind of have to make sure they don't have Paul beat Reigns.

I have a friend who's a wrestling fan I'll be watching this. They're more into AEW, so in return for them watching this, I may watch Full Gear with them. Which I don't necessarily mind, so long as I'm not paying 50 bucks to see it. It's a bit weird though, cause from what I can see there's only two matches confirmed for the show which is a week and a half away. Hoping Daniel Bryan will be on cause it has been a minute since I've seen them.

Bray is a slow built. Last time they went too fast putting the fiend in the title position. I'm kinda fine with taking their time but of course everyone has preferences.  And I don't know why but last person standing matches are fun to me. Also waiting for the OC vs judgement day. Kinda wish Mustafa Ali would be built more in the weeks and had that match with Seth at crown jewel but maybe he'll eventually dethrone Seth which I like. The Tag title change was a bad move even though I want asuka to have all the titles. They need to revamp their women's division somehow. Also mansoor or mansoir probably gonna be there too. Vince really wasted his undefeated streak. Hoping for a surprise too.



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

Runa216 said:
JWeinCom said:

I love me some Bailey. Hoping she wins, but don't see it happening. That said, I don't love last woman standing matches, so I'm not as excited as I'd otherwise be.

As for Bray Wyatt... I dunno. I'm interested in the stuff he's been doing, but at some point it has to involve... you know wrestling. He's probably the best promo guy in the company right now, but you can't just do promos every week. I'm getting impatient.

Lesnar vs Lashley could be good. Brock puts on great matches with the right person, but the matches could sometimes also be pretty meh. I'm over the matches where he and his opponent just trade finishers, and feel like this may be one of those.

Aside from that the card is kind of just... there. The Saudi shows are always this weird kind of thing where it feels like they want to do something special, but they also kind of view it as a glorified house show. So, there are a lot of stipulations and matches that sound good on paper, but the build isn't quite there. I'd be on the fence about watching it because I have mixed feelings about the show in general, but I just kind of have to make sure they don't have Paul beat Reigns.

I have a friend who's a wrestling fan I'll be watching this. They're more into AEW, so in return for them watching this, I may watch Full Gear with them. Which I don't necessarily mind, so long as I'm not paying 50 bucks to see it. It's a bit weird though, cause from what I can see there's only two matches confirmed for the show which is a week and a half away. Hoping Daniel Bryan will be on cause it has been a minute since I've seen them.

Recently went back to watch some key matches from Lesnar's 2002-2004 run. Holy hell that dude used to genuinely be one of the biggest and best things in the industry. He was so skilled and so explosive and so entertaining even when he was a beastly heel. After seeing his matches with Kurt Angle it just angers me even more that he can't be bothered to put in the work anymore. 

I know a job's a job and most people would LOVE to put in the bare minimum and get paid maximums, but this is an artistic medium, one focused on entertainment. He's not entertaining anymore. Which makes him bad at his job. 

Well, 2022 was 20 years ago. Lesnar is closing in on 50. So, he's obviously not gonna be the same guy he was at 26.

His feuds have been hit or miss for me, but can't say whether it's him or the booking. Way back when, he had the match where he came out and just squashed Cena, and it worked cause we hadn't seen that before. And, they kind of try to recapture that whenever he goes against someone who is similar in size and power to him. With Goldberg, Drew, Lashley before, and Reigns. And some people dig it, but I kind of have seen it enough by now. When he's been put against smaller people, or when there's a stipulation, I think he's done some good stuff. His last man standing with Reigns was great. His matches with Styles and Daniels were really good, although I could probably put on a good match with those guys. So don't know if its a matter of motivation, or if they just want to book him that way.

With Lashley, I get the feeling it's just gonna be them trading spears and F5s, but hoping to be surprised.

Eagle367 said:
JWeinCom said:

I love me some Bailey. Hoping she wins, but don't see it happening. That said, I don't love last woman standing matches, so I'm not as excited as I'd otherwise be.

As for Bray Wyatt... I dunno. I'm interested in the stuff he's been doing, but at some point it has to involve... you know wrestling. He's probably the best promo guy in the company right now, but you can't just do promos every week. I'm getting impatient.

Lesnar vs Lashley could be good. Brock puts on great matches with the right person, but the matches could sometimes also be pretty meh. I'm over the matches where he and his opponent just trade finishers, and feel like this may be one of those.

Aside from that the card is kind of just... there. The Saudi shows are always this weird kind of thing where it feels like they want to do something special, but they also kind of view it as a glorified house show. So, there are a lot of stipulations and matches that sound good on paper, but the build isn't quite there. I'd be on the fence about watching it because I have mixed feelings about the show in general, but I just kind of have to make sure they don't have Paul beat Reigns.

I have a friend who's a wrestling fan I'll be watching this. They're more into AEW, so in return for them watching this, I may watch Full Gear with them. Which I don't necessarily mind, so long as I'm not paying 50 bucks to see it. It's a bit weird though, cause from what I can see there's only two matches confirmed for the show which is a week and a half away. Hoping Daniel Bryan will be on cause it has been a minute since I've seen them.

Bray is a slow built. Last time they went too fast putting the fiend in the title position. I'm kinda fine with taking their time but of course everyone has preferences.  And I don't know why but last person standing matches are fun to me. Also waiting for the OC vs judgement day. Kinda wish Mustafa Ali would be built more in the weeks and had that match with Seth at crown jewel but maybe he'll eventually dethrone Seth which I like. The Tag title change was a bad move even though I want asuka to have all the titles. They need to revamp their women's division somehow. Also mansoor or mansoir probably gonna be there too. Vince really wasted his undefeated streak. Hoping for a surprise too.

I think with Bray, I just kind of want to see how it goes into wrestling. I think the fiend was a really good concept that wasn't really easy to put into matches. It's probably more my impatience than anything else but I kind of want to see how this persona fits into actual wrestling.

Last Man Standing matches can be fun. The one with Reigns and Lesnar was great. Ronda vs Charlotte was pretty good too. But, since a lot of the match will inevitably be the ref counting slowly to 10, so it can also be very poorly when not done right.

Ali beating Seth makes sense in Saudi, except for how recently Seth won it. Although, maybe they just did that because they wanted Ali to go over when they got there, and didn't want Lashley to eat the pin. Build could have been better. I think that's maybe some of the weakness of the newer style. There is a lot more going on, and nothing seems like dead or wasted time. But on the flip side, it makes it harder for anything to stand out. Not saying I want them to go back to Vince style, cause I've been enjoying things so much more recently. But, there may have been some reasons behind it.

As for the women's titles, it's a bit of a head scratcher. You would think they would want damage control as strong as possible before war games where I assume they'll be in one of the featured matches. Maybe it was kind of something just to keep Bliss and Asuka happy? They're both crazy talented, and they have been playing second and third banana to Bianca for a while now.The women's division in general is pretty stacked, moreso when Charlotte and Becky come back, and especially if Sasha (and Naomi I guess) wind up coming back too. Really gonna be hard to feature everyone.

Last edited by JWeinCom - on 01 November 2022

I’ve been thinking about how pro-wrestling rewrites history and legacies. But much of the time these legacies and moments not only don’t match up with our memories, but looking back at the old VHS tapes, the history is more like we remember it rather than how it’s it’s later presented (or ignored in many cases).

1. Myth: The Curtain Call as some major turning point of pro-wrestling.

Reality: The curtain call was barely noticed by anyone at the time, and those who did, didn’t really care. Reason: this one’s obvious, it helps build Triple H’s legacy into something bigger than it was, make him seem like a guy who was held back when the reality was he wasn’t ready at that point in time. Triple H was a great tag team character, a good IC level guy, but a poor world champion (below mediocre) when he first landed the belt off Mankind in 1999–arguably one of the worst title reigns of the 1990s. It wasn’t until the end of 1999 that, IMO, he really became the top tier singles guy and THE major heel in the company most people know him as. His match at the 2000 Royal Rumble was his first great match, and is probably both his and Foley’s best match of all time. The reality is that Triple H’s story is impressive without trying to pass up his legacy into something bigger than it was prior to the 1999.

2. Myth: Ric Flair was one of the greatest wrestlers of all time, on the level of Hogan. That he was a highly skilled wrestler.

Reality: (and I know people hate to hear this considering how heavily he’s been respected for the last 20 years, BUT) He wasn’t that big before the 2000s—his real story is a guy who stuck in there and really made it big late in his career, but Triple H and others have re-arranged it so his earlier legacy is a lot bigger earlier on than the reality. He held world titles, but he was the least popular guy to have done so. The thing most people could pick Flair out for was as a Buddy Rogers tribute: the big feathery robe he wore and the figure four leg lock. He was mediocre in the ring, being slower than most, and having a lower arsenal of moves (mostly chops, the woo, and falling strangely). During promos, WWE makes fun of Ultimate Warrior (another guy bigger than Flair), but Flair did the exact same stuff, acting weird, yelling, and mostly incoherent. Apart from being at the bottom of the world title tier (because, let’s be real, his biggest moment prior to 2000 was as one of the transitional champions between the Hogan and Hart eras) he was viewed as one of the dinosaurs at the height of WCW, and kind of a freak show given he looked so old (he was old, but looked even older than his age) and has known mainly for that (and the loose skin). There were even world title tier guys who were more popular than Flair in the 1980s and early 90s like Jerry the King Lawler, Supafly, Razor Ramon (in the 90s at least), Roddy Piper, Jake the Snake, and Dusty Rhodes. Reason: I don’t know, I think the story of a guy who held in there at a relatively high level and reached his pinnacle long after most would have retired is a better story than the history re-write.

3. Myth: Either an insignificant Bret Hart era.

Reality: this one is one of the harder ones to hide because too many people remember Hart being the top guy for years through the 1990s and one of the most deserving guys during the 1980s. And one of the things that the Bret Hart era had on top of the popularity was that he had this level of authenticity that Hogan and Ultimate Warrior lacked. Bret was cut from the same cloth as the Steamboats, the Dynamite Kids, and the Davey Boy Smiths. The Montreal Screwjob is to this day the most infamous moment that occurred in a pro-wrestling ring aside from his brother’s death. Even when Austin and Rock were huge and Bret was languishing/injured in WCW, if he popped up in WWE, it would have been one of the biggest moments in the industry. Reason: I think this one is obvious, there was a massive break between Bret and WWE.

4. Stone Cold Steve Austin’s rise occurred at King of the Ring 1996.

Reality: it began about a half a year later at Survivor series. While in context the moment looks huge, the reality is not many people thought much about King if the Ring at the time, and Austin wasn’t really in the top tier until his feud with Bret Hart. The match that really made him was Hart vs. Austin in 1997 where he bled all over his face. Reason: just easier to communicate, I think most wrestling fans are aware of this, and WWE doesn’t try to hide it, it’s just one of those things that many casual fans remember differently because of how WWE began to package Austin’s career legacy starting as early as the Austin VHS tapes released in 1998.

Last edited by Jumpin - on 26 November 2022

I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

Acknowledge the bloodline you noobs.