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Forums - Sports Discussion - The Pro Wrasslin' Thread (WWE, WWF, WCW, TNA, ROH, NWA, NJPW, etc)

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What match are you excited for at WWE Payback 2017?

Neville vs. Austin Aries ... 1 6.67%
 
Randy Orton vs. Bray Wyat... 3 20.00%
 
The Hardy Boyz vs. Cesaro... 2 13.33%
 
Kevin Owens vs. Chris Jer... 3 20.00%
 
Bayley vs. Alexa Bliss (Raw Women's Title) 3 20.00%
 
Seth Rollins vs. Samoa Joe 1 6.67%
 
Roman Reigns vs. Braun Strowman 2 13.33%
 
Total:15
Jumpin said:
JWeinCom said:

Stupid decision IMO. The market for people who watch Smackdown and Raw for five hours a week and still have the time/desire for another two hours of the same wrestling with lower production values is pretty small. The market for people who want a more indy style of wrestling program is larger, and they're kind of giving up on that market.

Which is kind of why WWE has been off my radar since jumping back into it. I loved NXT back in the day, would check in on the main roster from time to time - although I only ever found their women’s division and Bray Wyatt promos to be remotely interesting in that time.

WWE grasps for a model of pro-wrestling that’s been decaying for 20 years now. Their best replacement idea is to adequately train up a bunch of large sized athletes. The same sort of outdated model that worked in the 80s when they had a virtual monopoly, but failed in the 90s when TV viewers got access to better quality wrestling. Sure, some say smaller guys like Bret couldn’t draw, but he outdrew all the lumbering roid machines like Kevin Nash and Sid Vicious. Yeah, they had big guys like the Rock, Kane, and Undertaker, but they had way more going on for them than their size—even tiny guys like Crash Holly, 2 Cool, the Hardyz, Guerrero, and that unnamable Canadian guy who was friends with Guerrero, were drawing like DaVinci in the ~2000 era.

On the bright side, WWE at least let go all their best ‘wrestling show’ talent. They’ve handed AEW a top shelf selection of some of the best trainers, talent scouts, and bookers in the industry today.

I think their wrestling is actually pretty good. The quality of the guys on the card in terms of in ring ability is probably far better than at any other time, especially when you consider the womens division used to be either non-existent or served solely as masturbation material that is completely unneeded in the age of pornhub. 

What my comment is getting at is not to criticize the overall product. Raw and Smackdown have their place. They have to appeal to broad demographics, so maybe it's not going to appeal to 30+ year old wrestling fans who have already kind of seen it all. That's where something like NXT could be useful.

Didn't bring up AEW, but I don't think that anyone NXT got rid of will help them. They already have tons of great minds, but they're not the ones doing the booking. Don't see that changing. 



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I've been just watching youtube clips and reading dirt sheets about WWE, Impact and AEW.

Dont have any service to watch them.



    

Basil's YouTube Channel


                    

BasilZero said:

I've been just watching youtube clips and reading dirt sheets about WWE, Impact and AEW.

Dont have any service to watch them.

If you have a digital antena and a TV, you could at least get Smackdown. Raw and Smackdown are on Hulu's basic package. Hulu Plus has AEW. Peacock has everything WWE. AEW is a bit harder to find, but people tend to put up the episodes on dailymotion. Can't promise you won't get viruses or something though. As for Impact, I have no idea.

AEW is really missing an opportunity by not having its programming on a popular and ideally free service. For a newer promotion still trying to get eyes, I have no idea why they're relying on such an antiquated model. If you have family member that has a cable subscription and they'll share your account info, you can watch it on TBS.com or whateverchannelitson.com.



JWeinCom said:

If you have a digital antena and a TV, you could at least get Smackdown. Raw and Smackdown are on Hulu's basic package. Hulu Plus has AEW. Peacock has everything WWE. AEW is a bit harder to find, but people tend to put up the episodes on dailymotion. Can't promise you won't get viruses or something though. As for Impact, I have no idea.

AEW is really missing an opportunity by not having its programming on a popular and ideally free service. For a newer promotion still trying to get eyes, I have no idea why they're relying on such an antiquated model. If you have family member that has a cable subscription and they'll share your account info, you can watch it on TBS.com or whateverchannelitson.com.

No digital antenna and havent had a TV service (cable/satellite) in over a decade - dont even know anyone who does lol

I do have Hulu but I'm guessing you are talking about Hulu TV which is different.

I got Disney Plus (with Hulu in the D+ Package), HBO Max and Prime video - dont really feel like getting another service but ya I'm sure I can find free streams on other sites like Dailymotion - I always use a secondary PC to watch streams like that , never my main PCs.



    

Basil's YouTube Channel


                    

BasilZero said:
JWeinCom said:

If you have a digital antena and a TV, you could at least get Smackdown. Raw and Smackdown are on Hulu's basic package. Hulu Plus has AEW. Peacock has everything WWE. AEW is a bit harder to find, but people tend to put up the episodes on dailymotion. Can't promise you won't get viruses or something though. As for Impact, I have no idea.

AEW is really missing an opportunity by not having its programming on a popular and ideally free service. For a newer promotion still trying to get eyes, I have no idea why they're relying on such an antiquated model. If you have family member that has a cable subscription and they'll share your account info, you can watch it on TBS.com or whateverchannelitson.com.

No digital antenna and havent had a TV service (cable/satellite) in over a decade - dont even know anyone who does lol

I do have Hulu but I'm guessing you are talking about Hulu TV which is different.

I got Disney Plus (with Hulu in the D+ Package), HBO Max and Prime video - dont really feel like getting another service but ya I'm sure I can find free streams on other sites like Dailymotion - I always use a secondary PC to watch streams like that , never my main PCs.

You could buy a digital antenna. They're not expensive. They're the equivelant of the old rabbit ears. No subscription service required, and you'll get network TV.

Regular Hulu has Raw and Smackdown. They put them up a few days after they've aired. For Raw, they cut out a few things which honestly isn't a bad thing since it will be things like the 24/7 nonsense. You would need Hulu TV for AEW.



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BasilZero said:

I've been just watching youtube clips and reading dirt sheets about WWE, Impact and AEW.

Dont have any service to watch them.

I watch Ups and Downs for WWE and that's it. I occasionally check in for stuff like Wrestlemania and Royal Rumble and Survivor Series and Summerslam (The big 4 PPV....I mean, 'premium live event') and that's about it. Raw sucks. Smackdown is better but still not great, and they somehow made me hate Roman Reigns. Not in a good, heel heat kind of way, in a 'jesus christ they're doing the dominant guy who's only dominant because he's a sniveling wimp-heel who gets his cronies to do all the work while he takes all the credit' thing again. I loved the Tribal Chief persona at first. a dude who comes in, kicks EVERYONE'S ass, and moves on. that lasted about six months, then Jimmy and Jey started interfering in all his matches and it's just the same 'he's about to lose but they come in and save the day' bullshit all over again. 

Imagine if they presented him the same way they do Brock. He ACTUALLY comes in, absolutely DOMINATES the competition, plays with his food as it were, and then does the same thing he did with Daniel Bryan and Edge, stacking them up. THAT was the last time I found his character compelling. 

WWE is so predictable now that Simon Miller has started tallying 'surprise roll up' wins, which he got to like 150 or something (I have to look at the actual numbers, he started in march or something of that year). He then did distraction finishes in 2021, that got up to I think almost 200. This year he's doing an 'interruption' counter, as in, any time there's a promo that gets interrupted...and he's already at 9 for WWE after only three shows and 11 for the year (including AEW). So yeah, predictable, boring, and lame. 

Oh, and Fuck them for ruining NXT. Seriously, that used to be their best stuff. Indie guys doing indie guy things (and gals, too, of course). but then they decided to fire everyone who made NXT great and just made it the third generic, same-as-everything-else brand. Disrespectful and stupid in equal measure. 

I hope Gargano and Keith Lee end up in AEW. I know that's my overall wish but at least AEW knows a thing or two about long-term booking. They are not perfect because there's only so much time in a week and there's no way they could possibly give EVERYONe the time they deserve, but when you have dudes like Daniel Bryan coming in and putting in the best performances of his career (Well, ever since going to WWE in 2010) on back to back shows, having already done two 5-star matches (his first ever) and three 4.75 star matches in a few months...it's clearly not the performer's fault, it's WWE's. 

I love seeing guys I liked in WWE come to AEW and absolutely kick ALL the ass. Pretty much every ex-WWE guy that came to AEW is treated better, given more creative room to have fun, and as a result are making more engaging stories and matches.

And back to that long-term booking with actually engaging plots: Everything with Adam Page from day one is a 3-year story in the making and it had one of the most cathartic pay-offs I've ever seen, then he went 60 fucking minutes with Bryan Danielson in an instant classic...on free TV. Like, these guys are knocking it outta the park. Adam Cole and the whole Elite vs Undisputed Era is a story I could absolutely get behind and I'm curious to see where it goes, as opposed to WWE where it's 'oh, RK Bro...that's clearly just a set up for a team split and Wrestlemania match'. Tag Team Wrestling is phenomenal over there....the only division I think is weak is the women's division, and even that opinion is changing. That recent women's street fight was amazing. There's been some awesome shit going on over there. 

I do worry they're growing too much too fast, it's only a matter of time before we see less and less of the smaller guys I love (I'm all sad I don't see Joey Janela anymore, even though he and Sonny Kiss are apparently doing stuff on Dark. which are basically house shows that go on youtube.) But right now I'm engaged from top to bottom. I actually CARE about wrestling again. I ahven't watched weekly programs of WWE since august 2018. Probably had something to do with some bullshit Brock Lesnar pulled. I hate that guy. He's got so much potential but his matches are all the same. short and boring. 



My Console Library:

PS5, Switch

PS4, PS3, PS2, PS1, WiiU, Wii, GCN, N64 SNES, XBO, 360

3DS, DS, GBA, Vita, PSP, Android

Top 6 this generation: 
Bloodborne, Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice, God of War, The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild, Dark Souls III, Red Dead Redemption II, Rock Band 4

JWeinCom said:

You could buy a digital antenna. They're not expensive. They're the equivelant of the old rabbit ears. No subscription service required, and you'll get network TV.

Regular Hulu has Raw and Smackdown. They put them up a few days after they've aired. For Raw, they cut out a few things which honestly isn't a bad thing since it will be things like the 24/7 nonsense. You would need Hulu TV for AEW.


I'll be honest, I didnt realize Hulu had WWE programming until you mentioned it lol

I barely got Hulu last month so still new to the service lol.

I'll check it out!

Runa216 said:

I watch Ups and Downs for WWE and that's it. I occasionally check in for stuff like Wrestlemania and Royal Rumble and Survivor Series and Summerslam (The big 4 PPV....I mean, 'premium live event') and that's about it. Raw sucks. Smackdown is better but still not great, and they somehow made me hate Roman Reigns. Not in a good, heel heat kind of way, in a 'jesus christ they're doing the dominant guy who's only dominant because he's a sniveling wimp-heel who gets his cronies to do all the work while he takes all the credit' thing again. I loved the Tribal Chief persona at first. a dude who comes in, kicks EVERYONE'S ass, and moves on. that lasted about six months, then Jimmy and Jey started interfering in all his matches and it's just the same 'he's about to lose but they come in and save the day' bullshit all over again. 

Imagine if they presented him the same way they do Brock. He ACTUALLY comes in, absolutely DOMINATES the competition, plays with his food as it were, and then does the same thing he did with Daniel Bryan and Edge, stacking them up. THAT was the last time I found his character compelling. 

WWE is so predictable now that Simon Miller has started tallying 'surprise roll up' wins, which he got to like 150 or something (I have to look at the actual numbers, he started in march or something of that year). He then did distraction finishes in 2021, that got up to I think almost 200. This year he's doing an 'interruption' counter, as in, any time there's a promo that gets interrupted...and he's already at 9 for WWE after only three shows and 11 for the year (including AEW). So yeah, predictable, boring, and lame. 

Oh, and Fuck them for ruining NXT. Seriously, that used to be their best stuff. Indie guys doing indie guy things (and gals, too, of course). but then they decided to fire everyone who made NXT great and just made it the third generic, same-as-everything-else brand. Disrespectful and stupid in equal measure. 

I hope Gargano and Keith Lee end up in AEW. I know that's my overall wish but at least AEW knows a thing or two about long-term booking. They are not perfect because there's only so much time in a week and there's no way they could possibly give EVERYONe the time they deserve, but when you have dudes like Daniel Bryan coming in and putting in the best performances of his career (Well, ever since going to WWE in 2010) on back to back shows, having already done two 5-star matches (his first ever) and three 4.75 star matches in a few months...it's clearly not the performer's fault, it's WWE's. 

I love seeing guys I liked in WWE come to AEW and absolutely kick ALL the ass. Pretty much every ex-WWE guy that came to AEW is treated better, given more creative room to have fun, and as a result are making more engaging stories and matches.

And back to that long-term booking with actually engaging plots: Everything with Adam Page from day one is a 3-year story in the making and it had one of the most cathartic pay-offs I've ever seen, then he went 60 fucking minutes with Bryan Danielson in an instant classic...on free TV. Like, these guys are knocking it outta the park. Adam Cole and the whole Elite vs Undisputed Era is a story I could absolutely get behind and I'm curious to see where it goes, as opposed to WWE where it's 'oh, RK Bro...that's clearly just a set up for a team split and Wrestlemania match'. Tag Team Wrestling is phenomenal over there....the only division I think is weak is the women's division, and even that opinion is changing. That recent women's street fight was amazing. There's been some awesome shit going on over there. 

I do worry they're growing too much too fast, it's only a matter of time before we see less and less of the smaller guys I love (I'm all sad I don't see Joey Janela anymore, even though he and Sonny Kiss are apparently doing stuff on Dark. which are basically house shows that go on youtube.) But right now I'm engaged from top to bottom. I actually CARE about wrestling again. I ahven't watched weekly programs of WWE since august 2018. Probably had something to do with some bullshit Brock Lesnar pulled. I hate that guy. He's got so much potential but his matches are all the same. short and boring. 



Ya I watch the Up and Down videos from WhatCulture Wrestling too


I hate how the execs in WWE are holding back so much potential...hopefully there will be change in the future.



    

Basil's YouTube Channel


                    

BasilZero said:
JWeinCom said:

You could buy a digital antenna. They're not expensive. They're the equivelant of the old rabbit ears. No subscription service required, and you'll get network TV.

Regular Hulu has Raw and Smackdown. They put them up a few days after they've aired. For Raw, they cut out a few things which honestly isn't a bad thing since it will be things like the 24/7 nonsense. You would need Hulu TV for AEW.


I'll be honest, I didnt realize Hulu had WWE programming until you mentioned it lol

I barely got Hulu last month so still new to the service lol.

I'll check it out!

Runa216 said:

I watch Ups and Downs for WWE and that's it. I occasionally check in for stuff like Wrestlemania and Royal Rumble and Survivor Series and Summerslam (The big 4 PPV....I mean, 'premium live event') and that's about it. Raw sucks. Smackdown is better but still not great, and they somehow made me hate Roman Reigns. Not in a good, heel heat kind of way, in a 'jesus christ they're doing the dominant guy who's only dominant because he's a sniveling wimp-heel who gets his cronies to do all the work while he takes all the credit' thing again. I loved the Tribal Chief persona at first. a dude who comes in, kicks EVERYONE'S ass, and moves on. that lasted about six months, then Jimmy and Jey started interfering in all his matches and it's just the same 'he's about to lose but they come in and save the day' bullshit all over again. 

Imagine if they presented him the same way they do Brock. He ACTUALLY comes in, absolutely DOMINATES the competition, plays with his food as it were, and then does the same thing he did with Daniel Bryan and Edge, stacking them up. THAT was the last time I found his character compelling. 

WWE is so predictable now that Simon Miller has started tallying 'surprise roll up' wins, which he got to like 150 or something (I have to look at the actual numbers, he started in march or something of that year). He then did distraction finishes in 2021, that got up to I think almost 200. This year he's doing an 'interruption' counter, as in, any time there's a promo that gets interrupted...and he's already at 9 for WWE after only three shows and 11 for the year (including AEW). So yeah, predictable, boring, and lame. 

Oh, and Fuck them for ruining NXT. Seriously, that used to be their best stuff. Indie guys doing indie guy things (and gals, too, of course). but then they decided to fire everyone who made NXT great and just made it the third generic, same-as-everything-else brand. Disrespectful and stupid in equal measure. 

I hope Gargano and Keith Lee end up in AEW. I know that's my overall wish but at least AEW knows a thing or two about long-term booking. They are not perfect because there's only so much time in a week and there's no way they could possibly give EVERYONe the time they deserve, but when you have dudes like Daniel Bryan coming in and putting in the best performances of his career (Well, ever since going to WWE in 2010) on back to back shows, having already done two 5-star matches (his first ever) and three 4.75 star matches in a few months...it's clearly not the performer's fault, it's WWE's. 

I love seeing guys I liked in WWE come to AEW and absolutely kick ALL the ass. Pretty much every ex-WWE guy that came to AEW is treated better, given more creative room to have fun, and as a result are making more engaging stories and matches.

And back to that long-term booking with actually engaging plots: Everything with Adam Page from day one is a 3-year story in the making and it had one of the most cathartic pay-offs I've ever seen, then he went 60 fucking minutes with Bryan Danielson in an instant classic...on free TV. Like, these guys are knocking it outta the park. Adam Cole and the whole Elite vs Undisputed Era is a story I could absolutely get behind and I'm curious to see where it goes, as opposed to WWE where it's 'oh, RK Bro...that's clearly just a set up for a team split and Wrestlemania match'. Tag Team Wrestling is phenomenal over there....the only division I think is weak is the women's division, and even that opinion is changing. That recent women's street fight was amazing. There's been some awesome shit going on over there. 

I do worry they're growing too much too fast, it's only a matter of time before we see less and less of the smaller guys I love (I'm all sad I don't see Joey Janela anymore, even though he and Sonny Kiss are apparently doing stuff on Dark. which are basically house shows that go on youtube.) But right now I'm engaged from top to bottom. I actually CARE about wrestling again. I ahven't watched weekly programs of WWE since august 2018. Probably had something to do with some bullshit Brock Lesnar pulled. I hate that guy. He's got so much potential but his matches are all the same. short and boring. 



Ya I watch the Up and Down videos from WhatCulture Wrestling too


I hate how the execs in WWE are holding back so much potential...hopefully there will be change in the future.

Also a fan of ups and downs. As for WWE holding people back... there's definitely some truth to that (see Karion Cross), but I think it's sometimes a case of what I'll call Snyder Syndrome. Where we always assume that the thing we didn't see would be better than what we actually got. There are some guys obviously victims of shitty booking (again Karrion Cross probably Toni Storm), but a lot of times someone will leave, appear somewhere else, and then I'm like "Oh... maybe that's why WWE didn't do that."

A good example is Moxley. He complained a lot about how the WWE scripted his promos. And, true he was given some awful stuff to say... but now that he is left to his own devices, his promos are kind of meandering and wandering. So, I get why they wanted to script him, even though their scripts blew.  



JWeinCom said:

Also a fan of ups and downs. As for WWE holding people back... there's definitely some truth to that (see Karion Cross), but I think it's sometimes a case of what I'll call Snyder Syndrome. Where we always assume that the thing we didn't see would be better than what we actually got. There are some guys obviously victims of shitty booking (again Karrion Cross probably Toni Storm), but a lot of times someone will leave, appear somewhere else, and then I'm like "Oh... maybe that's why WWE didn't do that."

A good example is Moxley. He complained a lot about how the WWE scripted his promos. And, true he was given some awful stuff to say... but now that he is left to his own devices, his promos are kind of meandering and wandering. So, I get why they wanted to script him, even though their scripts blew.  


Yea, the scripts arent something to write home about but I just wish the long term plans were better.

What they did with Moxley at the end was messed up lol - the pooper scooper deal especially lmao



    

Basil's YouTube Channel


                    

BasilZero said:
JWeinCom said:

Also a fan of ups and downs. As for WWE holding people back... there's definitely some truth to that (see Karion Cross), but I think it's sometimes a case of what I'll call Snyder Syndrome. Where we always assume that the thing we didn't see would be better than what we actually got. There are some guys obviously victims of shitty booking (again Karrion Cross probably Toni Storm), but a lot of times someone will leave, appear somewhere else, and then I'm like "Oh... maybe that's why WWE didn't do that."

A good example is Moxley. He complained a lot about how the WWE scripted his promos. And, true he was given some awful stuff to say... but now that he is left to his own devices, his promos are kind of meandering and wandering. So, I get why they wanted to script him, even though their scripts blew.  


Yea, the scripts arent something to write home about but I just wish the long term plans were better.

What they did with Moxley at the end was messed up lol - the pooper scooper deal especially lmao

Yeah, I'm definitely not saying WWE was writing good stuff for him. But seeing him in AEW, I can see why they felt he needs a script. Like, I remember his promo when he was going to face Darby Allin. The theme was he wish he could talk Darby Allin out of going into the match so he didn't have to brutalize him, but Darby was like him when he was young, and the only way to make him see reason was to beat it out of him. That's a great concept. But, when he delivered it, he made his point. Then, he made it again. Then he made it a third time. And just to be safe, he circled back to make it a fourth time. So, I can see why WWE felt he needed a script in front of him to function. 

Ideally, they would say "what do you want to talk about here" and then help plan it out, but that's kind of beside the point. My point is that it's often hard to tell whether it's the booking or the wrestler. And the track record of WWE people going to AEW is mixed at best.