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Forums - General - Where are the feminists?

KLXVER on 27 June 2016

Yeah, many feminists don't believe men and women are equals, they believe women are superior.



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Veknoid_Outcast on 27 June 2016
Captain_Yuri said:
ktay95 said:
It's not about equality it's about Women > Men

This! I don't think I have ever seen or met a feminist who doesn't think like that.

You've met me!



Jizz_Beard_thePirate on 27 June 2016
Teeqoz said:
Captain_Yuri said:

This! I don't think I have ever seen or met a feminist who doesn't think like that.

Not this. The statement is absolute bullshit. It is by definition wrong.  If you want equal rights for both men and women, you are a feminist.

I m pretty sure you are confusing feminism with something else... Feminists Only cares about women issues and little all else...

If a female gets denied for a male oriented job for example, feminists will be all over it but if its the other way around, feminists are no where in sight. I would post many other points but the other posts around here covers a lot of them.



                  

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Teeqoz on 27 June 2016
setsunatenshi said:
Teeqoz said:

No, what is pretend is saying feminists are only about woman>men. Sure, there are some manhaters and feminazis who are self-proclaimed feminists (even though they aren't), but they are both a) in the minority (by far) and b) by definition not feminists. If you want to include them as feminists because they say they are, okay then, but then you have to keep in mind that they are a tiny minority of feminists. Communism is about a classless society with means of production and transport of products owned by everyone. First of all, China isn't even communist, they only pretend to be (funnily enough, like the feminazis pretend to be feminists), all their actions show that China is capitalistic as fuck. The class mentality is stronger in China than nearly any nation out there, and the means of production and transport are privatively owned. They are about as communistic as the US. North Korea is also not a communist state, but I'm to lazy to go into detail here either. Both countries are riddled with corruption, so whatever ideology they have are irrelevant. The authoritarian regimes are what causes the problems, not their ideology.

 

1. Okay, if you want to include the radical minority of feminazis together with normal feminists, fine. But then acknowledge that they are in a small minority. Saying "Feminism isn't about equality, it's only about women>men" is about as errouneous as saying "Islam isn't about their religious beliefs, it's only about killing people who oppose them". Sure, there exist Islamist terror organisations, but they are in the vast minority. 

2. "Feminism has several ridiculous claims" - how can feminism "have" anything? Some feminists have several ridiculous claims, but again, they are in the minority.

3. Egalitarianism and feminism stands for much of the same, except egalitarianism is a broader reaching thing, also demanding equality for all economic backgrounds, social classes, etc. It is related to communism and socialism in that regard.

4. Communist want a classless society and state owned (or publicly owned, you don't necessarily need a state there) means of production and transport of goods. If you want those, yes, you are a communist.

1- why should i acknowledge those are a minority? what studies do you have to back that claim up? I said there are different types of feminism and that by itself indicates there's no 1 minority, there might be plenty of minorities that in the end could make up quite the majority. I can tell you though that the most prominent and vocal feminists nowadays are what you.

Maybe check the simple wiki on feminism and you'll see how many different types there are. Here ya go, hope it helps:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_movements_and_ideologies

(let's not get started on islam or religion comparisons, it would take us way off topic)

 

2- how can feminism have anything? there's such a thing as a 'feminist theory'. Again wiki is your friend, but just to give an example:

"Themes explored in feminism include discrimination, objectification (especially sexual objectification), oppression, patriarchy,[3][4] stereotyping, art history[5] andcontemporary art,[6][7] and aesthetics."

on pathriarchy, again from the standpoint of feminist theory:

"Feminist theory defines patriarchy as an unjust social system that enforces gender roles and is oppressive to both men and women." " Feminist theory typically characterizes patriarchy as a social construction, which can be overcome by revealing and critically analyzing its manifestations."

 

3- if a person really is for equality of opportunity regardless of gender, they should simply call themselves egalitarian. if they decide to consciously call themselves feminists, then they are saying something more than so called 'equality between genders'.

 

4- you just proved my point. the same way you can't say 'if you're in favour of equality for genders, you're a feminist', you also can't say 'if you're in favor of equality and no social classes dividing the people, you are a communist'

both terms include a lot more than that 1 definition, so yes, of course it's insane to say someone is a feminist or communist just because they may agree with one of the tenants of both beliefs

Okay fine, I acknowledge that only using the dictionary definition of feminism doesn't cover the whole picture (but talking about feminist theory is overcomplicating the matter. Do you think most feminist have read up on "feminist theory"? Your little excerpt from wikipedia also doesn't state anything about patriarchy being something universally believed in in feminism, just that it's one of the "themes explored" in feminism. It also brings us to what Pokoko said, it's the reality that matters. Just like the communist manifesto seems pretty jolly good in theory, that's not how it has worked in practice, it doesn't matter what is so called "feminist theory" if it doesn't reflect the standpoints of most feminists). But I stand by my original statement that "it's not about equality, it's about women>men" is complete bullshit. 

I also explained to you, egalitarianism is a much broader term than feminism. Egalitarianism is closely related to socialism and communism. Egalitarianism is about equality for everyone regardless of everything, not just gender. I am both a feminist and an egalitarianist though.



Teeqoz on 27 June 2016
Captain_Yuri said:
Teeqoz said:

Not this. The statement is absolute bullshit. It is by definition wrong.  If you want equal rights for both men and women, you are a feminist.

I m pretty sure you are confusing feminism with something else... Feminists Only cares about women issues and little all else...

If a female gets denied for a male oriented job for example, feminists will be all over it but if its the other way around, feminists are no where in sight. I would post many other points but the other posts around here covers a lot of them.

What else am I confusing it with?



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Dyllyo on 27 June 2016

I love how half the guys in this thread don't even seem to care that they're being sexist.

Keep sitting around, complaining about how feminists are all sexist though :P



SuaveSocialist on 27 June 2016
Azuren said:
SuaveSocialist said:

Then you've never seen or met a feminist.  Feminism by definition is pursuit of equality (Women|Men); Women>Men is the formula of misandry and there is no overlap.

"If you want equal rights for both men and women, you are a feminist." --Props to Teeqoz for saying it better.

If that were the case, they would just be Equal Rights Activists. Feminism has the very root word of female in it; it's not about equal rights, it's about making sure women don't have fewer rights. 

You should invest in a dictionary.  Equal Rights Activists are simply feminists under a different name---presumably so they don't have to give misogynists and misandrists trigger warnings.



Azuren on 27 June 2016
SuaveSocialist said:
Azuren said:

If that were the case, they would just be Equal Rights Activists. Feminism has the very root word of female in it; it's not about equal rights, it's about making sure women don't have fewer rights. 

You should invest in a dictionary.  Equal Rights Activists are simply feminists under a different name---presumably so they don't have to give misogynists and misandrists trigger warnings.

As per Wikipedia: 

"Feminism is a range of political movements, ideologies, and social movements that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve equal political, economic, personal, and social rights for women."

 

See that last word? 



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setsunatenshi on 27 June 2016
Teeqoz said:
setsunatenshi said:

1- why should i acknowledge those are a minority? what studies do you have to back that claim up? I said there are different types of feminism and that by itself indicates there's no 1 minority, there might be plenty of minorities that in the end could make up quite the majority. I can tell you though that the most prominent and vocal feminists nowadays are what you.

Maybe check the simple wiki on feminism and you'll see how many different types there are. Here ya go, hope it helps:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_movements_and_ideologies

(let's not get started on islam or religion comparisons, it would take us way off topic)

 

2- how can feminism have anything? there's such a thing as a 'feminist theory'. Again wiki is your friend, but just to give an example:

"Themes explored in feminism include discrimination, objectification (especially sexual objectification), oppression, patriarchy,[3][4] stereotyping, art history[5] andcontemporary art,[6][7] and aesthetics."

on pathriarchy, again from the standpoint of feminist theory:

"Feminist theory defines patriarchy as an unjust social system that enforces gender roles and is oppressive to both men and women." " Feminist theory typically characterizes patriarchy as a social construction, which can be overcome by revealing and critically analyzing its manifestations."

 

3- if a person really is for equality of opportunity regardless of gender, they should simply call themselves egalitarian. if they decide to consciously call themselves feminists, then they are saying something more than so called 'equality between genders'.

 

4- you just proved my point. the same way you can't say 'if you're in favour of equality for genders, you're a feminist', you also can't say 'if you're in favor of equality and no social classes dividing the people, you are a communist'

both terms include a lot more than that 1 definition, so yes, of course it's insane to say someone is a feminist or communist just because they may agree with one of the tenants of both beliefs

Okay fine, I acknowledge that only using the dictionary definition of feminism doesn't cover the whole picture (but talking about feminist theory is overcomplicating the matter. Do you think most feminist have read up on "feminist theory"? Your little excerpt from wikipedia also doesn't state anything about patriarchy being something universally believed in in feminism, just that it's one of the "themes explored" in feminism. It also brings us to what Pokoko said, it's the reality that matters. Just like the communist manifesto seems pretty jolly good in theory, that's not how it has worked in practice, it doesn't matter what is so called "feminist theory" if it doesn't reflect the standpoints of most feminists). But I stand by my original statement that "it's not about equality, it's about women>men" is complete bullshit. 

I also explained to you, egalitarianism is a much broader term than feminism. Egalitarianism is closely related to socialism and communism. Egalitarianism is about equality for everyone regardless of everything, not just gender. I am both a feminist and an egalitarianist though.

that's fine, all I wanted was to show why that basic definition should not be used to tell someone else they are or aren't a feminist. i personally dislike the term and would never call myself feminist exactly because it would not be a correct term to define my beliefs on the topic of equality. I would call myself an egalitarian and a humanist. I don't need a special term to say I believe women and men should have the same opportunities and not be discriminated. The same way it's enough for me to not be racist, I don't need 1 specific term to say I believe in equality of people of different races. Or that tall and short people should be treated fairly. Equality for blue eyed and brown eyes people is important for me... and so on and so on...

i'm not in the position to tell what 'most' feminists believe, or what 'true feminists believe'. for me it's a pointless discussion. if person A tells me they are a feminist i will take them at their word. now if this term is good enough to cover people with such different viewpoints on the same topic, it's pretty much telling me the term is meaningless.

I'm sure the so called 'feminazis' as you put it would look at someone like you and say you're not a true feminist.

my one and only point: the term feminism is useless and people should be able to state their point of view without using it. it's simply muddying the water.

you and me probably would agree on a lot more regarding gender 'politics' than you and the 'extreme' feminists, yet you decide to use the same label they use, I (and many more people that would agree with both of us) don't



Proxy-Pie on 27 June 2016

Feminism is about achieving equality through the advancement of women's rights (at least, that's the definition), and that's why it entirely falls apart when it comes to men being on the losing side, and it's also why I don't consider myself a feminist. Egalitarianism ftw.