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Forums - General Discussion - Florida Pulse gay club attacked.

sc94597 said:
Ljink96 said:
What do we do about this! I can't stand it. We have to stop Isis. This has gone on way too far. Bomb those buggers off the map...is what I'd like to say but it's much more complicated than that. Something has to be done. I'm sick and tired of waking up to shootings. My deep sympathies go out to the families affected by this twisted shithead. Sorry, I'm just livid right now.

We aren't sure this is connected with ISIS, but it certainly is connected with Islam. 

I don't personally think restricting immigration is the solution, but I do like the idea that when immigrants come they are given some education on the liberal values in which the society they are entering has structure itself. It needs to be taught that raping your wife is not allowed, gay people are going to have rights and it won't be made illegal, and there is going to be a lot of things that are ungodly to your eyes. If you don't like it, don't come. So basically from a young age, possibly have special classes for the children of immigrants with the goal of integration. 

I could see how this is politically untenable though, but not any more than restricting immigration. 

I also think there needs to be more pressure on liberal muslims (as there is on christians) to reform their muslim families/friends and not perpetuate illiberal ideas. Muslims can say Christians do it too all they want, but 52% of modern Christians in Britain don't believe homosexuality should be illegal, and many are even becoming okay with it morally in the U.S of all places. Muslims can follow that same path too, just as Christians had. It will take time though. 

I don't even think time will fix the way they think. The difference between Muslims and Christians is America. America's premise was to allow freedom of lifestyle which includes religion. This eventually made Christian's way of thinking, such as myself, more malleable towards different lifestyles. No I don't believe in gay marriage but I can tolerate it because at the end of the day they're humans just like anyone else and deserve to be treated as such.

Muslims have never, to my knowledge, even skimmed the thought of acceptance of gays. They never will either, they're still battling Israel over 2000 year old land. They stick to what has been set for their religon. I know this isn't a political thread but something has to be done on how we admit anyone into the US. Not just hispanics or greeks, everyone should have the same immagration process.

The thing is with the shooter, Omar, he was born in the US, so it was his choice to do this. Only influenced by his religion. So what do we do about people like this who were born here and maintain their brash way of thinking? There's simply no fix all cure all for this. I hate to say it but the only way we got Germany and Japan to settle down was by war, and destroying them in the battlefield. Only now, Nuclear technology isn't a secret anymore. Anyone can make a weapon of mass destruction. If another war breaks out we could be looking at the worst war to ever breakout in the history of the Earth.



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Normchacho said:
sc94597 said:

No, it shows that one is being realistic and thinking about realistic solutions that help law-abiding people. It is easy to look at it from the distance and think lowering the statistics should be as simple as enacting legislation, but it isn't. This is a complicated issue, that a few laws just won't fix. Regardless, homocide rates are declining quite healthily, and hopefully if we solve some more fundamental problems they'll decline even more rapidly. 

From what I've seen of the statistics, in addition to my common intuition living here, there are more lives saves. The majority of home-intruders don't have guns, but that doesn't mean they can't rape or kill you. Here are just a few stories I've read and sympathized with in the last few months. 

http://thelibertydoll.com/2016/05/13/barb-moles-80-year-old-shoots-home-intruder/ 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clW2jtv6qFc

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/08/21/14-year-old-uses-rifle-to-protect-siblings-from-alleged-home-invaders/

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/09/02/elderly-man-buys-gun-monday-morning-for-self-defense-shoots-alleged-burglar-monday-night/

http://dailycaller.com/2016/01/10/five-times-elderly-people-used-guns-to-save-themselves/

These are the weak in society. The young and elderly. They are taught how to use weapons properly from a young age. And they have protected themselves because of it. I don't see how the "gun lobby" has made these actual cases up. And I have seen plenty like them on the news. And these are only the stories of action. There are plenty more stories where guns are used as deterrents. 

1. The sources you linked are proudly biased and only reply stories that support their already held beliefs. Which is why they report individual stories, rather than actual data.

 

2. You are much more likely to be assaulted or killed by someone you know than by someone breaking into your home. This idea that gun owners are defending themselves from the outside world is misguided.

 

3. You are significantly more likely to be killed in your own home (both intentionally or accidentally) if there is a gun in the home. 

 

Guns make people feel safer. But they make them less safe.

 

http://m.aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/160/10/929.full

1. Reporting a specific story is biased? None of the links I provided claimed to argue anything generally. They all reported individual cases. 

2. And people can't defend against people they know? For example, a woman was killed by her ex boyfriend because she had to wait for her gun license. Maybe she would have been killed anyway, but at least she would have had a chance with her gun. 

http://www.nj.com/camden/index.ssf/2015/06/nj_gun_association_calls_berlin_womans_death_an_ab.html

3. And when the numbers are adjusted for suicide? 

The sample in the study you cited was 1993, they also oversampled blacks and people older than 100 years of age "to produce more reliable estimates". I hope you aren't serious. Hardly what I'd call a scientific study. 

Data for this study are from the 1993 National Mortality Followback Survey, which is based on a nationally representative 10 percent systematic sample of decedents aged 15 years or older in the United States (25). All 50 states with the exception of South Dakota, which was excluded because of a state law restricting the use of death certificates for research purposes, are represented in the National Mortality Followback Survey. The sample was drawn from death certificates received by the National Center for Health Statistics from state vital registration offices. To produce more reliable estimates, Blacks, persons less than 35 years of age or older than age 100 years, and persons who died from external causes of homicide, suicide, and unintentional injury were oversampled in this survey. The study protocol was reviewed and approved by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Institutional Review Board.



Ljink96 said:

I don't even think time will fix the way they think. The difference between Muslims and Christians is America. America's premise was to allow freedom of lifestyle which includes religion. This eventually made Christian's way of thinking, such as myself, more malleable towards different lifestyles. No I don't believe in gay marriage but I can tolerate it because at the end of the day they're humans just like anyone else and deserve to be treated as such.

Muslims have never, to my knowledge, even skimmed the thought of acceptance of gays. They never will either, they're still battling Israel over 2000 year old land. They stick to what has been set for their religon. I know this isn't a political thread but something has to be done on how we admit anyone into the US. Not just hispanics or greeks, everyone should have the same immagration process.

The thing is with the shooter, Omar, he was born in the US, so it was his choice to do this. Only influenced by his religion. So what do we do about people like this who were born here and maintain their brash way of thinking? There's simply no fix all cure all for this. I hate to say it but the only way we got Germany and Japan to settle down was by war, and destroying them in the battlefield. Only now, Nuclear technology isn't a secret anymore. Anyone can make a weapon of mass destruction. If another war breaks out we could be looking at the worst war to ever breakout in the history of the Earth.

The point is. Christianity had long interreligious wars that, because they were tightly knitted with medieval Europe's politics, completely undermined the absolute power religion had. Because people were much less inclined to just accepct Christian dogma's, the dogma's and the religion started to evolve with the change of thoughts (not always willingly). They had to because they had no choice.

Islam is still going through this process. It's not the point if any of these religions are bad. But Christianity has a less absolute hold over people's lives and it's dogmas are more easily set aside, while both Islamic and Christian dogma are at their core quite conservative.



Motive: Muslims hate gays, they don't tolerate it at all, they basically only accepting it's existence becayse the Sharia laws don't have any weight in cililized countries. He is a radical Muslim, he had the agenda and the means and this can be considered as a act of terrorism simply because the means of terror is to strike fear into people's heart's.

I find it funny that US have no problems with arresting freedom-fighters for the ''Act of terrorism'' when it's not.. But when 50 people dies over radicalism and hate towards gay's.. It's just a hate-crime..... It's a terrorist act and a Hate-crime, because he achieved both. 

Trust me, these things will only get worse..  It's definetly bad over here and i imagine it will start over there as well. US isn't immune against people who already live there.

Also, I said: Radical, not moderate.. That guy is definetly a Radical with a religious motive behind his killings



 

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Just saw this on my facebook feed from a youtube political commentator.  I very much agree with it.

"Thoughts about ‪#‎Orlando‬ shooting. So horrible.

For those calling for more gun control: Which gun control measures would have stopped this? Sources say he was a licensed security guard.

For those somehow blaming Christians or saying that their sympathy is fake: There is a difference between not approving of LGBT lifestyle and KILLING them. I doubt many Christians condone violence against gay people.

For those blaming ALL Muslims: I do think that there is widespread homophobia within Muslim culture that is often ignored by the left. Homosexuality is illegal in many predominantly Muslim countries. But just like I think it's wrong to blame ALL pro-lifers for the Planned Parenthood shooting, it's wrong to blame ALL Muslims for this tragic shooting."



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How come you never hear about mass shootings in Canada? Or even most of Europe? What kind of magic do they use to avoid all that? :o



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Slarvax said:
How come you never hear about mass shootings in Canada? Or even most of Europe? What kind of magic do they use to avoid all that? :o

You mean how Europe has terrorist attacks that have become almost a regular occurence? I'm sure thats far better. And as for Canada: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_shootings_at_Parliament_Hill,_Ottawa



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sc94597 said:
Ljink96 said:
What do we do about this! I can't stand it. We have to stop Isis. This has gone on way too far. Bomb those buggers off the map...is what I'd like to say but it's much more complicated than that. Something has to be done. I'm sick and tired of waking up to shootings. My deep sympathies go out to the families affected by this twisted shithead. Sorry, I'm just livid right now.

We aren't sure this is connected with ISIS, but it certainly is connected with Islam. 

I don't personally think restricting immigration is the solution, but I do like the idea that when immigrants come they are given some education on the liberal values in which the society they are entering has structure itself. It needs to be taught that raping your wife is not allowed, gay people are going to have rights and it won't be made illegal, and there is going to be a lot of things that are ungodly to your eyes. If you don't like it, don't come. So basically from a young age, possibly have special classes for the children of immigrants with the goal of integration. 

I could see how this is politically untenable though, but not any more than restricting immigration. 

I also think there needs to be more pressure on liberal muslims (as there is on christians) to reform their muslim families/friends and not perpetuate illiberal ideas. Muslims can say Christians do it too all they want, but 52% of modern Christians in Britain don't believe homosexuality should be illegal, and many are even becoming okay with it morally in the U.S of all places. Muslims can follow that same path too, just as Christians had. It will take time though. 

It has come out that the shooter called 911 before the attack and plegded his allegiance to ISIS.

ISIS has also come out today and claimed responsibilty for this attack.



Baryonyx said:

Motive: Muslims hate gays, they don't tolerate it at all, they basically only accepting it's existence becayse the Sharia laws don't have any weight in cililized countries. He is a radical Muslim, he had the agenda and the means and this can be considered as a act of terrorism simply because the means of terror is to strike fear into people's heart's.

I find it funny that US have no problems with arresting freedom-fighters for the ''Act of terrorism'' when it's not.. But when 50 people dies over radicalism and hate towards gay's.. It's just a hate-crime..... It's a terrorist act and a Hate-crime, because he achieved both. 

Trust me, these things will only get worse..  It's definetly bad over here and i imagine it will start over there as well. US isn't immune against people who already live there.

Also, I said: Radical, not moderate.. That guy is definetly a Radical with a religious motive behind his killings

Yeah but not all muslims are like that, for example most of the terrorist attacks if not all were done by Suni Muslims not Shia. I am corious if this done again by a Suni Muslim but then again he swear alliance to ISIS a Suni organisation.

The US has close ties to Saudi Arabia whichs supporting ISIS too, and preaching and spreading the same radicall Suni branch with their clerics.



barneystinson69 said:

You mean how Europe has terrorist attacks that have become almost a regular occurence? I'm sure thats far better. And as for Canada: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_shootings_at_Parliament_Hill,_Ottawa

There's only been 3 massacres in the uk in the past 20 years, one school shooting, one shooting spree and one terrorist attack.