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Forums - Politics Discussion - EU referendum -UK users

 

Leave or remain

Leave 412 53.72%
 
Remain 355 46.28%
 
Total:767
Teeqoz said:
This is exciting to follow, even if I'm Norwegian.

I am not British and I am anxious. I feel it in my guts, IBS is kicking in



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LurkerJ said:
Hedra42 said:

Voted this morning. Polling station was quite busy.

Remain or leave?

I don't like revealing my voting preference publicly, but I will say I changed my mind twice within the past week.

All I can say is that I think this is going to be bloody close.



^Well, the West are individualistic.



LurkerJ said:
MikeRox said:

I respectfully disagree with pretty much all of that quote. Though in a lunch break I haven't got time to put the full reasons.

 

I will ask though, do remainers honestly think the EU we know now will be identical to the EU in 20 years time? 

Saying it is the status quo is a misnomer.

Doesn't matter either way now though. The votes are being placed and minds will not change either way.

There is no argument left now, just the inevitable remain vote. Followed by a huge surge in UKiP support at the next election. The only question really is will they be the opposition against a coalition or the biggest party.

Positively frightening.

I still would like to hear from you even if it's too late. I am not British but I am frightened of the results. I still don't know what's best for England, remain or leave, I hope you guys make the right choice for your own people!

I think it's pretty certain Remain is going to win. I don't see an army of "Shy Brexiters" like we supposedly had Tories in the last election.

With regards to geographical make up, it will be interesting, as some expect richer areas with less immigration to vote to leave, while I actually live in an area with high immigration and anecdotally, there seem to be more brexiters than remainers.  However the biggest impact on this, even if the last poll of 55/45 in favour of remain is the turnout. As it's expected to be about 67%, it really would depend which voters were more determined to go out.

Chuck in the SNP adamance that Scotland being dragged out against it's will, could spur some nationalists there to actually vote leave to try and increase the chance for Scottish independence.

For the actual post that was quoted.

1. A smaller democracy will not be “more representative”.
The UK government is no more under your control than the EU. Diluting your vote one in 65m or one in 500m amounts to the same thing: no control.

However a UK government not able to shield themselves by blaming their failures on the EU, would be much more accountable. As for "more representative" How can an MEP representing upwards of 1m people be more representative than a UK MP representing on average 72,400 in England, or less in Scotland, Wales and NI. That's before you chuck in different ideas and ambitions of another 27 nations.

2. Immigration is just going to happen. 

I pretty much agree with this initial statement. However, there is a difference between being able to pick your own criteria for who is elligible to move to a country, and having a blanket "anyone has the right" stance that the EU mandates. Though personally, immigration isn't a great concern, more the lack of investment in infrastructure to accomodate it.

3. “Straining” schools, waiting lists, and hospitals are your fault. 

We are implementing spending cuts, (however EU policy dictates Austerity too), our population grew 500,000 last year, 330,000 of that from immigration. It's not just about maintaining the existing services, such an increase requires whole new provisions. There's also the question of where does this go? As for point 2, we need investiment in infrastructure to accomodate it, however as we don't know annually what the numbers will be, how are we meant to plan for it in the first place? Next year all EU citizens might overnight upsticks and move to Spain.

However I would also note, I saw a tweet saying "people voted for cuts, they got cuts, they are the reason you can't see a GP, not a Hungarian Migrant". This was the point when I realised most people just don't have a clue about any of this. The reason you can't see a GP easily in the UK, is because the 2004 Labour Government renegotiated the GP contracts.

4. The EU is a good shot at preserving peace. 

If the supposed EU army details are starting to emerge about is set in place, it seems to me more like an incendiary weapon more likely to cause conflict with Russia than maintain any peace.

5. Brexit use language that’s targeted at losers. 

Losers have feelings and opinions too. Telling them they are a loser and their life situation is their own fault and the best thing to do is to get a self help book smacks of narcissistic arrogance of "I'm alright, so you should be too". Maybe making a more convincing case for their lives are better as part of a greater European Community would swing them round better than calling them racist, xenophibic little Englanders and the like.

6. Countries come and go.

Isn't this what many people on the leave camp are saying about the EU? It had it's time and place in a backdrop of the Cold War and post Second World War.

7. Brexit will hurt the economy. 
This means your children and neighbours. Stop pretending you don’t care. Just vote remain. It’s boring, there’s nothing awesome about it, but sometimes you have to take a break from useful productive work to stop idiots breaking things.

On the short term most likely. To be able to predict the economic impact of brexit in 20-30 years however is pure opinion and to accept there is no scope that actually the alternative could be better economically is naive, arrogant and outright lying.

Point 7 sums up the remain campaign though. "This is the exact facts of what will happen, right down to the penny!" it's just simply not possible. Maybe if they'd spent more time making their own case, and less time telling people what they won't have with a brexit, they wouldn't have been anywhere near nailbitingly close going into the referendum. I was leaning towards remain at the start of the campaign. However I won't be threatened and bullied, and the more ridiculous the armageddon claims became, the more I started to wonder just who really would actually lose out the most in result of a Brexit, and I'm afraid the conclusions I drew were the politicians, global corporations and the financial institutions (who did quite a lot of bankrolling for the remain camp).

I won't be too bothered either way at the outcome. As I wasn't expecting to ever get a vote on it anyway. And I can rest safe in the knowledge that if I don't get my preference, I'll be £4000 a year better off than if I had... or something like that XD

It's not even like voting remain is a bad option. The division both campaigns have caused in this referendum is disgusting, and I'm not sure our country is ever going to be the same again. The scariest thing is just how little pretty much anyone in this country seems to understand about either side of the debate. Facebook Memes driving opinion is a very dangerous thing.

Final comment I promise! I predict a 56:44 outcome in favour of Remain once it's declared. Though I hope it's closer.



RIP Dad 25/11/51 - 13/12/13. You will be missed but never forgotten.

MikeRox said:
LurkerJ said:

I still would like to hear from you even if it's too late. I am not British but I am frightened of the results. I still don't know what's best for England, remain or leave, I hope you guys make the right choice for your own people!

I think it's pretty certain Remain is going to win. I don't see an army of "Shy Brexiters" like we supposedly had Tories in the last election.

With regards to geographical make up, it will be interesting, as some expect richer areas with less immigration to vote to leave, while I actually live in an area with high immigration and anecdotally, there seem to be more brexiters than remainers.  However the biggest impact on this, even if the last poll of 55/45 in favour of remain is the turnout. As it's expected to be about 67%, it really would depend which voters were more determined to go out.

Chuck in the SNP adamance that Scotland being dragged out against it's will, could spur some nationalists there to actually vote leave to try and increase the chance for Scottish independence.

For the actual post that was quoted.

1. A smaller democracy will not be “more representative”.
The UK government is no more under your control than the EU. Diluting your vote one in 65m or one in 500m amounts to the same thing: no control.

However a UK government not able to shield themselves by blaming their failures on the EU, would be much more accountable. As for "more representative" How can an MEP representing upwards of 1m people be more representative than a UK MP representing on average 72,400 in England, or less in Scotland, Wales and NI. That's before you chuck in different ideas and ambitions of another 27 nations.

2. Immigration is just going to happen. 

I pretty much agree with this initial statement. However, there is a difference between being able to pick your own criteria for who is elligible to move to a country, and having a blanket "anyone has the right" stance that the EU mandates. Though personally, immigration isn't a great concern, more the lack of investment in infrastructure to accomodate it.

3. “Straining” schools, waiting lists, and hospitals are your fault. 

We are implementing spending cuts, (however EU policy dictates Austerity too), our population grew 500,000 last year, 330,000 of that from immigration. It's not just about maintaining the existing services, such an increase requires whole new provisions. There's also the question of where does this go? As for point 2, we need investiment in infrastructure to accomodate it, however as we don't know annually what the numbers will be, how are we meant to plan for it in the first place? Next year all EU citizens might overnight upsticks and move to Spain.

However I would also note, I saw a tweet saying "people voted for cuts, they got cuts, they are the reason you can't see a GP, not a Hungarian Migrant". This was the point when I realised most people just don't have a clue about any of this. The reason you can't see a GP easily in the UK, is because the 2004 Labour Government renegotiated the GP contracts.

4. The EU is a good shot at preserving peace. 

If the supposed EU army details are starting to emerge about is set in place, it seems to me more like an incendiary weapon more likely to cause conflict with Russia than maintain any peace.

5. Brexit use language that’s targeted at losers. 

Losers have feelings and opinions too. Telling them they are a loser and their life situation is their own fault and the best thing to do is to get a self help book smacks of narcissistic arrogance of "I'm alright, so you should be too". Maybe making a more convincing case for their lives are better as part of a greater European Community would swing them round better than calling them racist, xenophibic little Englanders and the like.

6. Countries come and go.

Isn't this what many people on the leave camp are saying about the EU? It had it's time and place in a backdrop of the Cold War and post Second World War.

7. Brexit will hurt the economy. 
This means your children and neighbours. Stop pretending you don’t care. Just vote remain. It’s boring, there’s nothing awesome about it, but sometimes you have to take a break from useful productive work to stop idiots breaking things.

On the short term most likely. To be able to predict the economic impact of brexit in 20-30 years however is pure opinion and to accept there is no scope that actually the alternative could be better economically is naive, arrogant and outright lying.

Point 7 sums up the remain campaign though. "This is the exact facts of what will happen, right down to the penny!" it's just simply not possible. Maybe if they'd spent more time making their own case, and less time telling people what they won't have with a brexit, they wouldn't have been anywhere near nailbitingly close going into the referendum. I was leaning towards remain at the start of the campaign. However I won't be threatened and bullied, and the more ridiculous the armageddon claims became, the more I started to wonder just who really would actually lose out the most in result of a Brexit, and I'm afraid the conclusions I drew were the politicians, global corporations and the financial institutions (who did quite a lot of bankrolling for the remain camp).

I won't be too bothered either way at the outcome. As I wasn't expecting to ever get a vote on it anyway. And I can rest safe in the knowledge that if I don't get my preference, I'll be £4000 a year better off than if I had... or something like that XD

It's not even like voting remain is a bad option. The division both campaigns have caused in this referendum is disgusting, and I'm not sure our country is ever going to be the same again. The scariest thing is just how little pretty much anyone in this country seems to understand about either side of the debate. Facebook Memes driving opinion is a very dangerous thing.

Final comment I promise! I predict a 56:44 outcome in favour of Remain once it's declared. Though I hope it's closer.

Thanks a lot for your insight, truly appreciated :)



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kowenicki said:
Kerotan said:
I hope you leave just to see the fall out. And I hope Scotland leaves the UK and joins the EU

See it?  ha.

 

OT

I'm remain for purely selfish financial reasons.

I am shocked.



Newcastle was close - and not as predicted, apparently. Orkney 63% remain.



kowenicki said:
Kerotan said:
I hope you leave just to see the fall out. And I hope Scotland leaves the UK and joins the EU

See it?  ha.

You'll feel it. 

If the UK leaves Europe then the EU and particularly the smaller countires like... er... Ireland, will feel the pain every bit as much dont you worry.  Remember 2009? get ready for another round.

Global markets will fall sharply.  Global.

The Euro and the pound will fall.

Interest rates may need to rise.

Oh and if Scotland had voted for independence in the last referendum, they be pretty much bankrupt now.  The whole thing was based on the oil price, which has collapsed. I agree that would have been amusing.

You really know your stuff dont you...

OT

I'm remain for purely selfish financial reasons.

Angela Merkel took our cash, 

But we're still on the lash.  

 

Sung before our famous victory over Italy yesterday.  It won't affect me.  It will damage the UK and Europe.  But Europe will survive.  The UK will have shit bargaining powering for trade deals with the likes of China, EU and the US.  you will lose in the long term.  

 

Scotland will be happy to join.  The EU made Ireland an extremely wealthy country over the last 30 years.  Scotland would be wise to follow.  Especially with such vast energy resources both renewable and non renewable.  



Wow the pound fell hard after Sunderland results came in...






So far 50.5 to 49.5 in favour of leave. Only 1.3% of polls are reporting, so its far too early to tell. Though sterling has plummeted 3% after a large win in Sunderland.



Made a bet with LipeJJ and HylianYoshi that the XB1 will reach 30 million before Wii U reaches 15 million. Loser has to get avatar picked by winner for 6 months (or if I lose, either 6 months avatar control for both Lipe and Hylian, or my patrick avatar comes back forever).