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Forums - Nintendo - The WiiU was not the evolution of the Wii, it was...

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oniyide said:
@bdbdbd

as requested: "NSMBU as a launch title, Nintendo Land (mini-game collection) as the pack-in title, Wii Fit U, Wii Party U, Game & Wario, Sing Party, Wii Sports Club, Mario & Sonic Olympics as 8 of Nintendo's first 12 releases for the system." as Soundwave stated. Add Just Dance to that list too.

Now we may have a different defintion of what core games are, I would like to hear your definition.

I looked at the Wikipedia list of Wii U launch games and not many of the your games are on the list.

Anyway, as I already said, a core game is a typical game on the industry, that's intended for the typical customer. The game shares the typical customer's values. NSMBU (as far as I know, I don't have the game) and Wii Fit U are not games for the typical customer because of their different value and mostly different content. Wii Party U (at least Wii Party) is much closer to core than Wii Fit, but it's content is real life instead of escapism, which would make it a non-core game. M&S is a typical core game. Wii Sports Club, yes, not for your typical customer (however, this is just a Wii Sports re-release) Wario Ware (Game&Wario) for your typical core customer. Sing Party isn't a familiar game by any means.

Just Dance is Ubisoft's game. 



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bdbdbd said:
oniyide said:

And i have to believe the various soccer moms i know that put there Wiis in the closet. Also sales. How was Wii Music a core game? Explain that one cause i never played it (thank God) what games could they have made that would have kept them caring? Because if we look at sales the series for most of the games dropped ACROSS the board, so that tells me people stopped caring. (For example Deca Sports sold less and less as the gen went on and the first entry sold the best, last one selling the worse) so know the idea they stopped making games people cared about is fallacy.

If that is true for mini games why have the sales of said games dropped so drastically?

And the soccer moms put their Wiis in closet because of graphics? Or what was your point? 

Wii Music is full of tutorials, holding your hand, you really can't lose or win in the game, in order to advance you constantly need to clear triggers, Sebastian Tute is just as annoying as every unskippable cutscene there is, etc. It's pretty much the prime example of modern game design.

It is normal for the sales to drop when games are released too close to each other with no new content. Basically the sequels today are made to replace your old game in the store shelf instead of someone else's game doing the same. I believe Deca Sports was never a really popular game, it sold mostly because of people with Wii Sports wanted something new to play. And also, when there were more games competing for the same shelf spece, sales are spreading across a bigger number of games anyway. I don't think a single Wii was sold because of Deca Sports. It is because of that the Call of Duty has a new tagline with new content every few years, instead of COD 27 or so.

Sales dropped because the people stopped caring because there was no more new games to care about coming. 

I didnt mention graphics as a reason for it to go in the closet. Not sure where that came from. It went in the closet because they got bored, not unlike a lot of products that were the "it" thing to have. 

But those games were not released that close to each other. Outside of Just Dance non of them were annual. There were only 3 games in the Deca Sports series. So which games were released to close to each other? Deca Sports has more than a million sold and thats just the orginal. So how was it not a popular game. Another example Carnival Games only had two on for Wii the orginal sold real well, the sequel...not so much. Its true about shelf space so whats the excuse for games like Elder Scrolls. Call of Duty? hell sports games that maintain sales throughout the gen and in some cases go even higher. (funny enough COD sold worse and worse and Wii, but better and better on other systems).

What new games could have been made that would make them care?



bdbdbd said:
oniyide said:
@bdbdbd

as requested: "NSMBU as a launch title, Nintendo Land (mini-game collection) as the pack-in title, Wii Fit U, Wii Party U, Game & Wario, Sing Party, Wii Sports Club, Mario & Sonic Olympics as 8 of Nintendo's first 12 releases for the system." as Soundwave stated. Add Just Dance to that list too.

Now we may have a different defintion of what core games are, I would like to hear your definition.

I looked at the Wikipedia list of Wii U launch games and not many of the your games are on the list.

Anyway, as I already said, a core game is a typical game on the industry, that's intended for the typical customer. The game shares the typical customer's values. NSMBU (as far as I know, I don't have the game) and Wii Fit U are not games for the typical customer because of their different value and mostly different content. Wii Party U (at least Wii Party) is much closer to core than Wii Fit, but it's content is real life instead of escapism, which would make it a non-core game. M&S is a typical core game. Wii Sports Club, yes, not for your typical customer (however, this is just a Wii Sports re-release) Wario Ware (Game&Wario) for your typical core customer. Sing Party isn't a familiar game by any means.

Just Dance is Ubisoft's game. 

I disagree on the mini game compilations, because they only became popular with Wii, how well did they do on PS2? what about Wii U? PS360? etc. But for the sake of argument ill say you are right that means the only non core games are the exercise ones? How many of those could they have made before people got bored of that? Not many judging by sales we see now. Add Zumba to that list.



oniyide said:

I didnt mention graphics as a reason for it to go in the closet. Not sure where that came from. It went in the closet because they got bored, not unlike a lot of products that were the "it" thing to have. 

But those games were not released that close to each other. Outside of Just Dance non of them were annual. There were only 3 games in the Deca Sports series. So which games were released to close to each other? Deca Sports has more than a million sold and thats just the orginal. So how was it not a popular game. Another example Carnival Games only had two on for Wii the orginal sold real well, the sequel...not so much. Its true about shelf space so whats the excuse for games like Elder Scrolls. Call of Duty? hell sports games that maintain sales throughout the gen and in some cases go even higher. (funny enough COD sold worse and worse and Wii, but better and better on other systems).

What new games could have been made that would make them care?

No, you said the soccer moms don't care about graphics, and I was astonished about the statement and asked how do you know what the soccer moms care about. Your reply to that was that the soccer moms put their consoles to the closet.

Million isn't bad, but that's just a number that people buy the games when there's nothing specifically interesting to buy. This is why all popular system have so much crap on them.

As I said about COD, that's why Activision keeps changing the tagline of the games - to keep the content fresh. Why would've COD sold on the Wii? It's not a game that's made the system in mind, was released years after the HD-versions and it's not an interesting series anyway - for others than the core, that is. COD sold better on the other systems because the games industry knows how to market for the core gamers.

That's a good question, and answer to that is worth billions. Simply put: Nintendo should've kept making games that were arcade by nature and feature new content; that's what people bought when thay bought the Wii.



Ei Kiinasti.

Eikä Japanisti.

Vaan pannaan jalalla koreasti.

 

Nintendo games sell only on Nintendo system.

oniyide said:

I disagree on the mini game compilations, because they only became popular with Wii, how well did they do on PS2? what about Wii U? PS360? etc. But for the sake of argument ill say you are right that means the only non core games are the exercise ones? How many of those could they have made before people got bored of that? Not many judging by sales we see now. Add Zumba to that list.

I really haven't paid much attention to how the minigame collections have done on which system. Part of the problem is, that Nintendo's Mario Party have been hugely popular for almost two decades already, so it's hard to compare on some less popular games. No, the excercise games aren't the only non-core games.

Excercise games had the same thing as music games: too many and too fast. Guitar Hero lasted almost a decade before dying out. 



Ei Kiinasti.

Eikä Japanisti.

Vaan pannaan jalalla koreasti.

 

Nintendo games sell only on Nintendo system.

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bdbdbd said:

oniyide said:

I didnt mention graphics as a reason for it to go in the closet. Not sure where that came from. It went in the closet because they got bored, not unlike a lot of products that were the "it" thing to have. 

But those games were not released that close to each other. Outside of Just Dance non of them were annual. There were only 3 games in the Deca Sports series. So which games were released to close to each other? Deca Sports has more than a million sold and thats just the orginal. So how was it not a popular game. Another example Carnival Games only had two on for Wii the orginal sold real well, the sequel...not so much. Its true about shelf space so whats the excuse for games like Elder Scrolls. Call of Duty? hell sports games that maintain sales throughout the gen and in some cases go even higher. (funny enough COD sold worse and worse and Wii, but better and better on other systems).

What new games could have been made that would make them care?

No, you said the soccer moms don't care about graphics, and I was astonished about the statement and asked how do you know what the soccer moms care about. Your reply to that was that the soccer moms put their consoles to the closet.

Million isn't bad, but that's just a number that people buy the games when there's nothing specifically interesting to buy. This is why all popular system have so much crap on them.

As I said about COD, that's why Activision keeps changing the tagline of the games - to keep the content fresh. Why would've COD sold on the Wii? It's not a game that's made the system in mind, was released years after the HD-versions and it's not an interesting series anyway - for others than the core, that is. COD sold better on the other systems because the games industry knows how to market for the core gamers.

That's a good question, and answer to that is worth billions. Simply put: Nintendo should've kept making games that were arcade by nature and feature new content; that's what people bought when thay bought the Wii.

in my experience they dont care about graphics. Has your's been different? I mean the games they were buying werent exactly 1080hp

actually i was wrong about Deca Sports the original sold 2.50 mil copies and the next one sold .82 mil and the next sold .24 mil. That is one hell of a drop. the original Carnival games sold more than 4 mil copys, the sequel sold .61 mil. THat is a hell of a drop i cant think of another series that had a drop that big. How does one account for that? It cant be that there was more interesting things to buy because series across the board was going down in sales. 

If a tagling is all it needed how come other series arent maintaining there sales? especially ones that started out selling a lot, it cant all be just marketing.

So if we dont know, then Ninty didnt know. I'm gonna assume that there were NO games they could have made that would have made a difference or else they would have done them.



bdbdbd said:
oniyide said:

I disagree on the mini game compilations, because they only became popular with Wii, how well did they do on PS2? what about Wii U? PS360? etc. But for the sake of argument ill say you are right that means the only non core games are the exercise ones? How many of those could they have made before people got bored of that? Not many judging by sales we see now. Add Zumba to that list.

I really haven't paid much attention to how the minigame collections have done on which system. Part of the problem is, that Nintendo's Mario Party have been hugely popular for almost two decades already, so it's hard to compare on some less popular games. No, the excercise games aren't the only non-core games.

Excercise games had the same thing as music games: too many and too fast. Guitar Hero lasted almost a decade before dying out. 

Its not hard to compare at all, some of those mini game comps did really well intially which is why so many were made in the first place. What other games would you consider non core?

But doest that kind of prove my point of people getting bored with it? Whether they made too much was irrelevant, they still got bored. Even after a break people still wont pick up the newer music games.



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oniyide said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:

Ninty was both genial and shoertsighted with Wii, it should have launched it with the higher precision and full 3-axes Wiimote Plus, that having actually been launched later enjoyed scarce support as 3rd parties didn't want to lose tens million potential buyers of their games, but had it been standard equipment since the start, it would have brought three benefits, attracting more hardcore games and gamers of a new kind, hardcore motion games with more realistic (and less forgiving) simulation and immersion, delaying the moment existing users got tired of the system and thanks to all this extend the life and increase lifetime sales of Wii. Fully using Wiimote Plus selling potential could have probably given Wii additional sales greater than Wii U lifetime ones, and without the need to develop another interim console. Ninty could have directly developed NX totally skipping Wii U, and what's better, leaving 7th gen still being strong, with a winning image, without the Wii brand name getting tainted and tarnished by falling before its competitors after having so easily overwhelmed them for years.

I agree to an extent, the wiimote should have worked like Wii motion + from day one. But it wasnt like Ninty themselves were even supporting Wiimote+. They had sports resort. I Wii Play sequel that no one really cared about and Zelda. If Ninty didnt care i didnt expect 3rd parties to care either.  A better controller still would not have helped the actual hardware as it was still woefully behind, so the system would have still missed a lot of games that core gamers would play (not that it really mattered i guess since if you were that type of gamer you had another system). But yeah i agree they def could have extended the life of it. Shortsighted is def something I would call the Wii

Ninty consoles don't rely on top ranking HW power and they rely a lot more than others on first party titles with styles of their own that typically look as intended even with low HW power. With deeper titles allowed by fully using WM Plus features, Wii could have attracted more harcdcore gamers that could have used it as their second or third platform, and also kept the favouir of that part of casuals that eventuallly get tired of simplified games and start desiring a harder challenge. Sure, it wouldn't have brought Wii to 150M or more initially predicted by the most optimistic fans and analysts, but 120M (so more than actual Wii sales current Wii U LTD ones) could have been possible, and more longevity too, allowing Ninty to launch its successor without needing to rush it.

bdbdbd said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:

What Ninty said is a half truth (or a half lie, if you prefer    ) : The exact model of 3-axes gyro used in the WiiMote Plus wasn't available, but there were other models already available. About the gamepad, a less bulky controller with a smaller display could have been more appreciated, and it would surely have been a lot less expensive.

 

I don't agree about your first point: a Wiimote Plus can also be used as a plain Wiimote (and it actually was almost always, even when it could have been a nice plus to use the Plus, due to publishers preferring to cater for the whole user base), so you get both potential user bases, but the opposite isn't possible.
Anyhow, even not launching it with Wii U, I think that giving it with Wii U too would have been a good idea.

1. I believe there were cost associations related to the availability comment. I'd recall it was around the time the Wii was released the 3-axis accelerometers reached mass-market pricing. The commonly used accelerometer was 1-axis that were used by automobile industry in airbag collision sensors (which is why the airbags didn't always go off when they should've). Technically two 3-axis accelerometers is needed in the 4-dimensional 6-axis motion sensors.

2. Yes, it can be used that way. But if it had been made, Nintendo had made the games to utilise the controller to it's full features - and that would have been the problem. I do agree that it would have been a benefit for a few early Wii games, but a burden for the biggest hitters.

3. The problem with giving it away with Wii U is that nearly all the games are locked with the controller screen -gimmick. Nintendo also said that the "U" means it's a console that's focused on you, as opposed to Wii that was focused on family.

(I added numbers to be clear which parts I'm answering to.

2. Yes, but my point is simply that as the more complex WM Plus is tottally BC with the original, simplified WM mode, devs could have chosen the most suitable command scheme for each game since the start, and maybe even offer both for games with a wide enough range of difficulty settings

1. Years ago I looked for pricing of available models, maybe there were problems of supplies of suitable 3D models, but while the accelerometers surely ceased being a problem regarding costs, adding the 3rd axis to rotational sensors too would have added just a few dollars to costs, but those dollars would have been spent better than adding later the Plus features, when they ended up being mostly unused, wasted

3. About this, maybe as a PC gamer I don't totally get the need of consoles to focus too much on a thing, a feature, a user class target, I'm used to and I like a system that with the proper interfaces and enough HW power can cater to countless groups of potential users, with local multiplayer probably being the only weak point, even with HW power a lot bigger than consoles of the same period, PCs don't handle simultaneous local multiplayer as smoothly



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