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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Star Fox Zero controls....Easy peasy.

JWeinCom said:
curl-6 said:

As someone who adores Bayonetta 2 and strongly dislikes Wonderful 101, controls and aesthetics both played a part, but weren't the only factors.

I'll come straight out and say I hated the control scheme, (drawing on the Pad didn't seem to register my shape properly half the time, drawing with the sticks felt slow and clumsy, and both kept breaking the flow of combat with awkward pauses) and despised the art style. (I don't mind cartoonish graphics when done well but W101 just looked tacky in my opinion)

But other presentational issues also presented significant hurdles. The fixed camera was often annoying, the framerate could dip south of 30fps, and my blows always felt impotent, with little sense of real impact.

But the single biggest fault with the game was the crowd system; it was just so confusing to look at both from a graphical and a gameplay point of view. All these little figures all jumping and swarming around made it way more difficult than it should've been to judge my position and hitboxes, and to read the battlefield at a glance. Plus having to run around and collect your stunned members after being hit was massively irritating.

Those could have been your issues, but I didn't see those cited very often in reviews.   

The tacky look was intentional.  It's meant to look like action figures, which is why characters come in capsules.  The whole thing has a kid playing with his toys kind of vibe to it, which isn't quite cartoony.    It looked pretty much exactly as it should have whether you like that style or not.

If your blows felt impotent, then that was a problem on your end.  There are obvious physical cues, and compared to Bayonetta 2, you probably do more damage per attack.  The impact also depends on how big you make your weapon.  I can't see anyone feeling the attacks were impotent once you got a good combo going.  Especially if we're comparing this to Bayonetta, where against any reasonably strong enemy you need witch time or climax to really dent any moderately strong bosses.  If you liked Bayonetta 1 (where the default weapons do virtually no hitstun and even the shotguns won't really impact anything about a basic enemy), the issue was even more pronounced there.  

I agree with the camera.  There are certain parts where it was a pain.  Not often enough to really ruin my experience, but it did happen.

The rest of what you're talking about falls into the category of controls, and is pretty similar to what people are saying about star fox with how you have to pay attention to multiple things at once.  It's definitely more complex than traditional light/heavy system that Bayonetta uses, and it's definitely more confusing at first.  It also undoubtedly gives you more options in combat.  You have access to all of your weapons at any given time, and can switch between all of them in mid combo.  You can also send off chunks of your team to do support attacks for you, and of course there are things like recovering fallen squadmates, picking up and throwing enemies, stunning them with Pikminish attacks, etc.  

So that kind of goes with my point that some people prefer familiar systems.  And that's fine, but I much prefer mastering something new, which is why I enjoyed 101 more than Bayonetta 2.  And that's why I figured I'd probably like Star Fox's controls even if reviews were panning them.

When I say my hits felt impotent I mean more than the animation and sound/visual effects didn't give much oomph, and didn't make me feel like I was delivering powerful blows, even when I had a full sized fist or blade.

Demanding controls are definitely a major factor in the criticism of both Zero and W101, and one I share. It's not so much the learning curve that bothered me, as I've enjoyed many games with such a curve, like Skyward Sword and Red Steel 2, but rather the fact that there were scenes where I felt like I was fighting the controls as much as the enemies, like the controls were getting in between me and what I wanted to do rather than facilitating and empowering me.



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curl-6 said:
JWeinCom said:

Those could have been your issues, but I didn't see those cited very often in reviews.   

The tacky look was intentional.  It's meant to look like action figures, which is why characters come in capsules.  The whole thing has a kid playing with his toys kind of vibe to it, which isn't quite cartoony.    It looked pretty much exactly as it should have whether you like that style or not.

If your blows felt impotent, then that was a problem on your end.  There are obvious physical cues, and compared to Bayonetta 2, you probably do more damage per attack.  The impact also depends on how big you make your weapon.  I can't see anyone feeling the attacks were impotent once you got a good combo going.  Especially if we're comparing this to Bayonetta, where against any reasonably strong enemy you need witch time or climax to really dent any moderately strong bosses.  If you liked Bayonetta 1 (where the default weapons do virtually no hitstun and even the shotguns won't really impact anything about a basic enemy), the issue was even more pronounced there.  

I agree with the camera.  There are certain parts where it was a pain.  Not often enough to really ruin my experience, but it did happen.

The rest of what you're talking about falls into the category of controls, and is pretty similar to what people are saying about star fox with how you have to pay attention to multiple things at once.  It's definitely more complex than traditional light/heavy system that Bayonetta uses, and it's definitely more confusing at first.  It also undoubtedly gives you more options in combat.  You have access to all of your weapons at any given time, and can switch between all of them in mid combo.  You can also send off chunks of your team to do support attacks for you, and of course there are things like recovering fallen squadmates, picking up and throwing enemies, stunning them with Pikminish attacks, etc.  

So that kind of goes with my point that some people prefer familiar systems.  And that's fine, but I much prefer mastering something new, which is why I enjoyed 101 more than Bayonetta 2.  And that's why I figured I'd probably like Star Fox's controls even if reviews were panning them.

When I say my hits felt impotent I mean more than the animation and sound/visual effects didn't give much oomph, and didn't make me feel like I was delivering powerful blows, even when I had a full sized fist or blade.

Demanding controls are definitely a major factor in the criticism of both Zero and W101, and one I share. It's not so much the learning curve that bothered me, as I've enjoyed many games with such a curve, like Skyward Sword and Red Steel 2, but rather the fact that there were scenes where I felt like I was fighting the controls as much as the enemies, like the controls were getting in between me and what I wanted to do rather than facilitating and empowering me.

I dunno what more you wanted out of the effects.  The effects for the sword are pretty similar to Bayonetta's sword, the wonder whip is basically the same effect as Alurne, and the guns waaaay more flashy than Bayonettas.  Aside from when Bayonetta enters climax mode, Wonderful 101 is way more over the top in general.  And once your combos get going fireballs and electricity start flying around the stage.

Skyward Sword doesn't really have any sort of steep learning curve.  You substitute a button press with a swipe, and the enemies, especially in the beginning, telegraph the direction you need to swipe so hard that it's like they're on your side.  I love Skyward Sword, but saying it has a learning curve comparable to 101 is a huge stretch.  The game as a whole is far easier than W101 so there's never any demand to get really good at it, and even then, it simply isn't as complex.

Red Steel 2 is basically the same story, although the enemies don't telegraph things as much, and you have to deal with more enemies at once.  I played that one quite a while ago, so I can't fully remember that one, but I don't remember anything really that complicated.  

Those two games had a different control scheme, but not really anything that much of a learning curve.  

Once I got the shapes down (I got whip and claws messup up for a while) I didn't have any trouble with the controls.  I felt totally empowerd to a greater extent than Bayonetta since I had all my abilities open to me at any given time. 



JWeinCom said:

I dunno what more you wanted out of the effects.  The effects for the sword are pretty similar to Bayonetta's sword, the wonder whip is basically the same effect as Alurne, and the guns waaaay more flashy than Bayonettas.  Aside from when Bayonetta enters climax mode, Wonderful 101 is way more over the top in general.  And once your combos get going fireballs and electricity start flying around the stage.

Skyward Sword doesn't really have any sort of steep learning curve.  You substitute a button press with a swipe, and the enemies, especially in the beginning, telegraph the direction you need to swipe so hard that it's like they're on your side.  I love Skyward Sword, but saying it has a learning curve comparable to 101 is a huge stretch.  The game as a whole is far easier than W101 so there's never any demand to get really good at it, and even then, it simply isn't as complex.

Red Steel 2 is basically the same story, although the enemies don't telegraph things as much, and you have to deal with more enemies at once.  I played that one quite a while ago, so I can't fully remember that one, but I don't remember anything really that complicated.  

Those two games had a different control scheme, but not really anything that much of a learning curve.  

Once I got the shapes down (I got whip and claws messup up for a while) I didn't have any trouble with the controls.  I felt totally empowerd to a greater extent than Bayonetta since I had all my abilities open to me at any given time. 

Bayonetta had punchier impact sounds and much better animation, which made my hits feel powerful.

I found there was an adjustment period with Skyward Sword and Red Steel 2; while the controls were intuitive enough, it took me a while to get really good at them, simply because they weren't what I was used to. They don't have as much of a curve as W101, but nor was I immediately good at them. I had to stick with it, but I was happy to do that because the games themselves were enjoyable.



curl-6 said:
JWeinCom said:

I dunno what more you wanted out of the effects.  The effects for the sword are pretty similar to Bayonetta's sword, the wonder whip is basically the same effect as Alurne, and the guns waaaay more flashy than Bayonettas.  Aside from when Bayonetta enters climax mode, Wonderful 101 is way more over the top in general.  And once your combos get going fireballs and electricity start flying around the stage.

Skyward Sword doesn't really have any sort of steep learning curve.  You substitute a button press with a swipe, and the enemies, especially in the beginning, telegraph the direction you need to swipe so hard that it's like they're on your side.  I love Skyward Sword, but saying it has a learning curve comparable to 101 is a huge stretch.  The game as a whole is far easier than W101 so there's never any demand to get really good at it, and even then, it simply isn't as complex.

Red Steel 2 is basically the same story, although the enemies don't telegraph things as much, and you have to deal with more enemies at once.  I played that one quite a while ago, so I can't fully remember that one, but I don't remember anything really that complicated.  

Those two games had a different control scheme, but not really anything that much of a learning curve.  

Once I got the shapes down (I got whip and claws messup up for a while) I didn't have any trouble with the controls.  I felt totally empowerd to a greater extent than Bayonetta since I had all my abilities open to me at any given time. 

Bayonetta had punchier impact sounds and much better animation, which made my hits feel powerful.

I found there was an adjustment period with Skyward Sword and Red Steel 2; while the controls were intuitive enough, it took me a while to get really good at them, simply because they weren't what I was used to. They don't have as much of a curve as W101, but nor was I immediately good at them. I had to stick with it, but I was happy to do that because the games themselves were enjoyable.

Seems really nitpicky.  101 has the exact sounds you'd expect.  Whips cracking, sword clinging, handguns blasting, fists thudding.  It has exactly every sound effect you would expect in this kind of game.

Skyward Sword isn't an apt comparison.  Just nowhere near 101 in the realm of complexity.  Since the game really makes limited demands of the player, nobody gets frustrated with them and thinks less of the game.  



RolStoppable said:
Good for you if you are zipping around, but I have notable problems to get rolling.

Oh God, so many possibilities  for jokes

It's a problem when Rol says that he can't get ROLling.

or maybe I should say that Rol lost the ContRols :]

I'll stop it here 

 

good for the OP to be able to use the SFZ controls with ease, I'm shure you'll have a better experience than most other people...



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So, your feelings about STZ controls are exactly the same feelings I had when playing Fast Racing Neo.

Everybody was crying about the game´s difficulty and sensible controls and bla bla bla. I tried the game and It required neither much effort to win the easy and normal mode nor effort to get used to the controls. It just required some time to memorize the tracks before jumping on the hard mode (and winning it too)

After your comments I feel that I´ll be fine with StarFox Zero controls....



I wouldn't say "Easy peasy" but getting used to them wasn't as hard as I had expected from all the reviews.
The level design tho, is not so good.



Mar1217 said:

They're unusual that's for sure but in almost no case that you won't get fun for mastering them, well for those who did that is ... I wonder how many of these did get good at it.

+ Something like this was going to happen for sure since day 1 we knew of the game's existence. Industry won't be pleased with change to our methods of playing.

Industry (and most gamers) nowadays seems never pleased with new ideas of controls or methods of playing......



JWeinCom said:
curl-6 said:

Bayonetta had punchier impact sounds and much better animation, which made my hits feel powerful.

I found there was an adjustment period with Skyward Sword and Red Steel 2; while the controls were intuitive enough, it took me a while to get really good at them, simply because they weren't what I was used to. They don't have as much of a curve as W101, but nor was I immediately good at them. I had to stick with it, but I was happy to do that because the games themselves were enjoyable.

Seems really nitpicky.  101 has the exact sounds you'd expect.  Whips cracking, sword clinging, handguns blasting, fists thudding.  It has exactly every sound effect you would expect in this kind of game.

Skyward Sword isn't an apt comparison.  Just nowhere near 101 in the realm of complexity.  Since the game really makes limited demands of the player, nobody gets frustrated with them and thinks less of the game.  

In an action game I want to feel powerful, Wonderful 101 didn't do that for me, which significantly reduced my satisfaction.

That and the controls are just the tip of the iceberg in terms of what I didn't like though. I didn't like the graphics, I didn't like the camera, I didn't like the constant pausing of the action, I didn't the crowd mechanic, I didn't like the voice acting, I didn't like the humour, I didn't like the character designs. In fact I disliked pretty much every aspect of the game, frankly.



So, Jim Sterling made a great video about the issue (as always). I respect him a lot and it's a really thoughtful video about SF:Zero controls, though I don't agree with him in many things. For example, the affirmation of buttons and classic controllers being more responsive that motion controls. I think motion are better for aiming, and that's how I felt since the Wii came into the market, and later with WiiU gyroscope. I can't think on another possibility than aiming with motion now XD. Sticks just feel clumsy and painfully slow. Wii motion is the ideal control scheme if you ask me. Also, mastering SF:Zero pays off, so they're not useless per se.