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Forums - General Discussion - Women are not fit for front line combat!

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Why can't women be on the front line?

They're physically not fit. 62 32.29%
 
They can do it if trained properly. 102 53.13%
 
That's not women's duty. 12 6.25%
 
I'm weak so I can't fat... 16 8.33%
 
Total:192
Goatseye said:
hunter_alien said:

Wasnt just yesterday a chemical attack in Allepo? Isnt HRW attacking the US, its allies and pretty much every nation of mistreating POW's? But just for fun, here, some of the first findings:

http://europe.newsweek.com/isis-carries-out-chemical-weapon-attack-syrian-army-state-news-agency-444213?rm=eu

https://www.rt.com/news/338847-shocking-images-sheikh-maqsood/

https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/12/09/usa-and-torture-history-hypocrisy

These were literally the first results that I came upon. But I am sure you wont need a "let me google it for you" link if you want more.

The catch here is war. US is fighting guerillas, not nations. No war was declared.

US is doing the same thing in the mountains of Pakistan, where is the war? Is US at war with Syria and Iraq?

Yeah, now I see what you mean. From a classic definition these are indeed not wars. But in all honesty the de-facto meaning of a war has changed a whole lot since the cold war and especially in the last 2 decades. The War on Terror is not a war per-se, but the devastating effects are there, and they remain conflicts that have the same level of destruction and restructuring when it comes to power ballance. Turkeys fight against the PKK would also not be considered a war, or neither does the Syrian, Yemeni or Ukrainian conflicts. But IMO it is fair to discuss of them as one. Even if some powers only take up proxy rols, the truth is that they have the same scale and scope as a war in its purest deffinition.

But I think I am derailing the thread now. Maybe it would be a good idea to make a thread and discuss this as a separate topic



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hunter_alien said:
Goatseye said:

The catch here is war. US is fighting guerillas, not nations. No war was declared.

US is doing the same thing in the mountains of Pakistan, where is the war? Is US at war with Syria and Iraq?

Yeah, now I see what you mean. From a classic definition these are indeed not wars. But in all honesty the de-facto meaning of a war has changed a whole lot since the cold war and especially in the last 2 decades. The War on Terror is not a war per-se, but the devastating effects are there, and they remain conflicts that have the same level of destruction and restructuring when it comes to power ballance. Turkeys fight against the PKK would also not be considered a war, or neither does the Syrian, Yemeni or Ukrainian conflicts. But IMO it is fair to discuss of them as one. Even if some powers only take up proxy rols, the truth is that they have the same scale and scope as a war in its purest deffinition.

But I think I am derailing the thread now. Maybe it would be a good idea to make a thread and discuss this as a separate topic



greenmedic88 said:

By a show of hands here, who actually has an armed forces service record?

Clearly we have some pretty strong opinions here, but I'm a lot more likely to push those opinions belonging to those who don't have any firsthand experience to the back of the line, if not gloss over them entirely.

The front half of my service was largely in integrated/coed units, from BCT to AIT, Airborne school, my first two assignments, etc. so I have a better grasp of what this entails on a practical, functional level than any armchair soldiers or pseudo academics.

I'm going to withhold my personal opinions here until I hear something relevant and intelligent.

We could probably start with the two sets of physical standards for men and women service members as far as the differences go to say nothing of the different mindsets or other differences between men and women.

In favor of the coed units, I would probably look first to the IDF. If we have any women or men who have served in the IDF, I would highly value their opinions and impressions in this discussion.

You wrote 5 paragraphs just to say that we're not qualified to chime in on the topic at hand. At least leave your professional opinion, to add to the convo, maybe we could learn something.



Goatseye said:
greenmedic88 said:

By a show of hands here, who actually has an armed forces service record?

Clearly we have some pretty strong opinions here, but I'm a lot more likely to push those opinions belonging to those who don't have any firsthand experience to the back of the line, if not gloss over them entirely.

The front half of my service was largely in integrated/coed units, from BCT to AIT, Airborne school, my first two assignments, etc. so I have a better grasp of what this entails on a practical, functional level than any armchair soldiers or pseudo academics.

I'm going to withhold my personal opinions here until I hear something relevant and intelligent.

We could probably start with the two sets of physical standards for men and women service members as far as the differences go to say nothing of the different mindsets or other differences between men and women.

In favor of the coed units, I would probably look first to the IDF. If we have any women or men who have served in the IDF, I would highly value their opinions and impressions in this discussion.

You wrote 5 paragraphs just to say that we're qualified to chime in on the topic at hand. At least leave your professional opinion, to add to the convo, maybe we could learn something.

What I find most amusing?  The almost zero deference he appears to afford a retired Colonel, who was active in Afghanistan in 2003, whose opinions were quoted in the story, in the first place.



Kotastic said:
I love how a topic about women's situations are being discussed by predominantly male users.

Because this place is populated mainly by male users, because male users are most likely to enter a competetive activity like arguing and because which genitals you have does not impair your ability to understand a situation, even if only people with different genitals than yours are in that situation.



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Goatseye said:
greenmedic88 said:

By a show of hands here, who actually has an armed forces service record?

Clearly we have some pretty strong opinions here, but I'm a lot more likely to push those opinions belonging to those who don't have any firsthand experience to the back of the line, if not gloss over them entirely.

The front half of my service was largely in integrated/coed units, from BCT to AIT, Airborne school, my first two assignments, etc. so I have a better grasp of what this entails on a practical, functional level than any armchair soldiers or pseudo academics.

I'm going to withhold my personal opinions here until I hear something relevant and intelligent.

We could probably start with the two sets of physical standards for men and women service members as far as the differences go to say nothing of the different mindsets or other differences between men and women.

In favor of the coed units, I would probably look first to the IDF. If we have any women or men who have served in the IDF, I would highly value their opinions and impressions in this discussion.

You wrote 5 paragraphs just to say that we're not qualified to chime in on the topic at hand. At least leave your professional opinion, to add to the convo, maybe we could learn something.

Looks like no one then. I know there are a handful of prior service guys in VGC.

He claimed only "a very small number" of women wanted to join the infantry, and that only "a fraction" of those would have the physical capability to do so.

Col Kemp was former British Army. I'm former US Army so I can't comment on British servicewomen, but his above statement applies to the US Army as well. 

There are two sets of physical standards for the APFT, the basic assessment of fitness that is far from comprehensive, but enough for a set of standards that can exclude individuals from certain specialties if they fall below the minimum. 

For certain military occupational specialties, including combat arms specialties like infantry, a single non-gender specific set of standards would start everyone on neutral ground. No separate/lower standards for women as is the case for combat support and combat services specialties. Ruck weight standards for timed marches would also be the same (this is already 18th Airborne Corps standard). 

Additionally, for special operations specialties (US Army Rangers, US Army Special Forces, etc.), age standards during qualification phases are typically thrown out as well so that everyone must perform for the peak standards of the 27-31 year old men for strength and endurance events and 22-26 year old men for run times with no regard for age. The number of women in special operations units is currently all but non-existent, which could change if they were allowed into these SOF MOSs after meeting the standards and passing the selection process. Recently US Army servicewomen were allowed to go to Ranger School for their Ranger qualification (not a Military Occupational Specialty, but a qualification; one could be a Ranger qualfied cook if they successfully completed Ranger school) and the number of Ranger qualified servicewomen is currently still in the single digits last I checked. That's Army wide. 

With these non-gender specific physical standards, the pool of qualified servicewomen would be small, before even completing occupation specialty training to standard, as there is a pretty wide discrepancy between APFT standards for male and female servicemembers. The reality is that the number of qualified servicewomen would be small, but would represent the best of their peers.

If they can meet all the standards, at that point I'd leave it up to individual units and unit commanders. I know most infantry units probably would not be incredibly receptive among the rank and file and if there was any perception that members were being introduced into combat units as a part of some political statement, it would make things worse for these women. There would have to be the perception that any women in combat units were as qualified anyone else, with no special consideration given with regard to standards or performance. 



mornelithe said:
Goatseye said:

You wrote 5 paragraphs just to say that we're qualified to chime in on the topic at hand. At least leave your professional opinion, to add to the convo, maybe we could learn something.

What I find most amusing?  The almost zero deference he appears to afford a retired Colonel, who was active in Afghanistan in 2003, whose opinions were quoted in the story, in the first place.

Read it. 



Skratchy said:
I wonder how many of the guys responding to this, are just big fat asses who hang out in front of a monitor all day long?

I'm not.

I was in the Air force in 1995, a cop in 2003, and nuclear security in 2010.  I'm just reading and soaking it all in. I'm just not in an arguing mood these days.



greenmedic88 said:
Goatseye said:

You wrote 5 paragraphs just to say that we're not qualified to chime in on the topic at hand. At least leave your professional opinion, to add to the convo, maybe we could learn something.

Looks like no one then. I know there are a handful of prior service guys in VGC.

He claimed only "a very small number" of women wanted to join the infantry, and that only "a fraction" of those would have the physical capability to do so.

Col Kemp was former British Army. I'm former US Army so I can't comment on British servicewomen, but his above statement applies to the US Army as well. 

There are two sets of physical standards for the APFT, the basic assessment of fitness that is far from comprehensive, but enough for a set of standards that can exclude individuals from certain specialties if they fall below the minimum. 

For certain military occupational specialties, including combat arms specialties like infantry, a single non-gender specific set of standards would start everyone on neutral ground. No separate/lower standards for women as is the case for combat support and combat services specialties. Ruck weight standards for timed marches would also be the same (this is already 18th Airborne Corps standard). 

Additionally, for special operations specialties (US Army Rangers, US Army Special Forces, etc.), age standards during qualification phases are typically thrown out as well so that everyone must perform for the peak standards of the 27-31 year old men for strength and endurance events and 22-26 year old men for run times with no regard for age. The number of women in special operations units is currently all but non-existent, which could change if they were allowed into these SOF MOSs after meeting the standards and passing the selection process. Recently US Army servicewomen were allowed to go to Ranger School for their Ranger qualification (not a Military Occupational Specialty, but a qualification; one could be a Ranger qualfied cook if they successfully completed Ranger school) and the number of Ranger qualified servicewomen is currently still in the single digits last I checked. That's Army wide. 

With these non-gender specific physical standards, the pool of qualified servicewomen would be small, before even completing occupation specialty training to standard, as there is a pretty wide discrepancy between APFT standards for male and female servicemembers. The reality is that the number of qualified servicewomen would be small, but would represent the best of their peers.

If they can meet all the standards, at that point I'd leave it up to individual units and unit commanders. I know most infantry units probably would not be incredibly receptive among the rank and file and if there was any perception that members were being introduced into combat units as a part of some political statement, it would make things worse for these women. There would have to be the perception that any women in combat units were as qualified anyone else, with no special consideration given with regard to standards or performance. 

Sorry bro, didn't read much of it, I've met some women in 82nd that were really studs. That's all I wanna say.

That 82nd physical standard is different from 1st Cav and other units. Army has a set of physical standards and the units within have their own.



spurgeonryan said:
Say that to Cyborg who just got approved for MMA fights.

As ling as they can do what the male equivelant can do then I see no problem. But yes they need to be able to go non-stop, drag soldiers out of dangerous spots, etc. Most females entering the ranks are not able to do this. So just throwing any old female on the front lines is dumb. Bad management by the higher ups. Obviously they will be picking and choosing who goes out. Same goes for male soldiers.

Cyborg didn't just get approved for MMA fights she's been fighting in MMA for years. She's also been caught using steroids in the sport as well. If you google her images from when she first started fighting she looked a lot more feminine then she does now. It's clear she's been abusing substances for a long time.