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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Microsoft to unify PC and Xbox One platforms, ending fixed console hardware

ReimTime presents: 2024 - "a dystopian future of gaming"

For books we (arguably) have the evolution towards Kindle
For music we have the evolution towards Spotify
For television and movies we have the evolution towards Netflix
For gaming we have the evolution towards PSNow and the Xbox App

Gaming companies will become an all-encompassing brand available on multiple platforms. Having gaming services allows Sony and MS to pick up the same kind of info that Google and Facebook make major bank on (Playstation already made a separate messaging app). Companies will allow different subscription levels that allow you more or less access to their services. Games remain exclusive to services, much like HBO Go, Shomi and Netflix have exclusives. Much like the Xbox app on PC will have games that won't be released on Steam. This allows for distinction between services.

There is a PhysicalMasterRace for books (libraries, "smell of books")
There is a PhysicalMasterRace for music (records and CDs being collected; "they sound better this way")
There is a PhysicalMasterRace for movies (theater-goers and those whom buy and collect DVDs/Blu-Rays)
There is a PhysicalMasterRace for gaming, but it too will be surpassed by the "ease-of-use" and on-the-go crowd. The majority of gamers in the future will adhere to the gaming services/apps. Games stream to apps on our TVs, our phones, our VR headsets maybe....... This is the future.

Sony->Playstation->PSNow game streaming on almost any technological device
Xbox app expands to other avenues and is available on more devices
Nintendo I am less sure on.
Steam has already had their own service that monopolizes the PC market for a while now.

DRM in this gaming future will be simply implemented; "sign the terms and conditions that you'll never fully read anyway" and we will be passive towards it. Xbox was bashed because they were upfront and arguably announced it too early.

Companies profit immensely from eliminating a lot of operation costs (manufacturing, distribution) and gaining revenue from data collection and ad revenue. We are indifferent.

Nintendo eventually invents an AI that takes over the world and we all die the end.



#1 Amb-ass-ador

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spemanig said:
Told you.

Now we just wait for PS Now to succeed PS4. I'm actually saving the crow buffet I'm serving for when all three platforms are confirmed to be what I said they'd be.

Honestly, I see a PS NOW/TV combo. 



TheMessiah said:
 

The developer doesnt have to do anything different from what they are now. Lok at Sea Of Thieves or Halo Wars 2 as great examples. The developer can just leave in higher PC graphical settings for the better version. And use lower PC settings for Version 1. Same way PS4 will run games at lower graphical settings. If this was a PS4 it woudnt be feasible as it doesnt have the universal Windows Platform.

Forza 6 Apex just announced uses UWP. Gears 4 will use UWP, Sea Of Thieves, Killer Instinct, Halo Wars 2, Quantum Break all use UWP And the developers have already said how easy it was to scale up the visuals with little work for the PC versions. Same would apply for a version 2 Xbox.

Of course the Xbox would be more powerful more frequently. Lets say the PS5 released in 2020. 7 years after PS4. It would be coming out against an Xbox with 16gb ram etc etc. Then in 2023 An new xbox version would release with better specs than the PS5. And again in 2026 another Xbox version to further the gap to PS5.So while the Playstation would have 2-3 years of a small power advantage. Xbox would have 4-5 years where its always significantly more powerful.

But the other difference is PS owners wont be able to play PS4 games on PS5. While Xbox owners continue to bring their entire catalog of games from 2013 through with them.

MS Im sure have done the maths. And are going ahead with this plan. Exactly how is yet to be revealed. But for sure we know its not going to be interchangable GPU's, CPUs, Ram etc sold seperately. And anymore lapse time than 3 years would make the model irrelevant as then you might as well just wait and do a new gen like they are already doing in the industry.

Im sure Oculus could be made to work on a version 2 Xbox. Just like the Morpheus runs on PS4 albeit not near Oculus PC levels.

Have you never gamed on PC before? Simply lowering some settings does not ensure a stable performance. The game has to be calibrated on a scene by scene basis or run with such gimped settings that there is plenty overhead to overcome the bottlenecks. True, scaling up is easy, not that that in anyway ensures getting anywhere close to the best out of the better hardware. Regardless of how it is done, each version still has to go through QA separately. Already been said numerous times.

And as I've already tried to explain as well, either the XBox that's better 3 years after the ps5 will have to be very expensive (to look significantly better) or it's only going to match it and the 6 year version is the one that looks significantly better. Plus simply having better specs on paper doesn't automatically mean noticeably better looking games. The WiiU, double the ram of ps3 and x360, 7 years in, wasn't any big step. Sure some games look pretty impressive now. However simply turning up a few sliders won't get the general public excited.

Last gen already showed the general gaming public doesn't care about BC. This new premium xbox model is going to be like the ps3 launch without coming off the back of a ps2 generation. Not going to be pretty.



TheMessiah said:
SvennoJ said:

No it would be the minority of time that they have the most powerful console and never the best power to price ratio. Plus games and game engines will never fully utilize the best out of the new models. Oculus Rift will definitely not be on XBox if they release in 1 year. Specs would have to be finalized already and no way a gtx 970 would make it into a revised $400 or $500 model. Of course a revised version like Morpheus could work, it can even work on XBox One now if MS wants to, yet not the OR with the VR games that are coming to PC.

There are ways they can finance this by adopting the cell phone or cable provider model. Raise the price of Live Gold and lock you into a 2 or 3 year contract on purchase. They tested that out already at the end of last gen with rent to own 360s. Or go the full cable provider route and rent you the box for $25 a month, $30 including live and replace it every 3 years.

More incremental upgrades simply means lowering profit margins compared to the 7 year cycle. That money has to come back from somewhere, either by less powerful hardware, ie running behind the curve, meaning only being more powerful for the minority of time. Or by raising the asking price somehow, either by higher live fees with contracts or more expensive consoles. (Which would look bad compared to much cheaper slim models from the competition that still looks almost as good)

What you want is the same experience as someone who upgrades their GPU every few years. Yet you want the full redesigned, rebalanced box for the same price as the gpu upgrade. It's not going to happen.

And if the competitor has a more efficient profit model, with overall much better power to price ratio, and has the time to get the best out of each iteration, with plenty of games that can only be experienced there, a unified userbase, guaranteed support for the entire lifecycle. Who do you think the majority of users and developers are going to choose?

The developer doesnt have to do anything different from what they are now. Lok at Sea Of Thieves or Halo Wars 2 as great examples. The developer can just leave in higher PC graphical settings for the better version. And use lower PC settings for Version 1. Same way PS4 will run games at lower graphical settings. If this was a PS4 it woudnt be feasible as it doesnt have the universal Windows Platform.

Forza 6 Apex just announced uses UWP. Gears 4 will use UWP, Sea Of Thieves, Killer Instinct, Halo Wars 2, Quantum Break all use UWP And the developers have already said how easy it was to scale up the visuals with little work for the PC versions. Same would apply for a version 2 Xbox.

Of course the Xbox would be more powerful more frequently. Lets say the PS5 released in 2020. 7 years after PS4. It would be coming out against an Xbox with 16gb ram etc etc. Then in 2023 An new xbox version would release with better specs than the PS5. And again in 2026 another Xbox version to further the gap to PS5.So while the Playstation would have 2-3 years of a small power advantage. Xbox would have 4-5 years where its always significantly more powerful.

But the other difference is PS owners wont be able to play PS4 games on PS5. While Xbox owners continue to bring their entire catalog of games from 2013 through with them.

MS Im sure have done the maths. And are going ahead with this plan. Exactly how is yet to be revealed. But for sure we know its not going to be interchangable GPU's, CPUs, Ram etc sold seperately. And anymore lapse time than 3 years would make the model irrelevant as then you might as well just wait and do a new gen like they are already doing in the industry.

Im sure Oculus could be made to work on a version 2 Xbox. Just like the Morpheus runs on PS4 albeit not near Oculus PC levels.

You really don't have the slightest clue how console video games are actually made do you? You just have an idea in your head and you've just decided it's reality. You are way, way off. I know first hand whats it's like. I've used the developer tools and the dev kits. It's literally nothing like you think it is. It's not a matter of "just keeping the high settings they use on PC". Not at all.

Also, two words to keep in mind when referencing MS developers on MS technology: Cloud computing - A whole bunch of fluff that turned into a pile of nothing.



Xxain said:

Honestly, I see a PS NOW/TV combo. 

I see it too. I think that if Sony releases any hardware after the PS4, it will be a very cheap streaming box. PS Now is the future, though. An awesome one.



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Protendo said:
The Messiah is missing very important points.

1.) All the Windows 10 games are lacking even the most basic standards Crossfire, windows mode, and more.
2.) Gears shows how bad the transition can be for sloppy ports
3.) This shows the eSRAM weakness in this strategy. It's what is making things difficult. The only way to make the transition smoother is not optimize for eSRAM which could result in a downgrade in graphics.
4.) Microsoft is never getting back the steam market without Mod support. Who's going to buy the W10 version of Elders Scrolls?
5.) Steam has plenty of exclusives not coming to W10, so I don't think they are worried about sloppy ports without the basic features.

The sad thing is this could of been great, but what they released so far is not going to convince anyone to change. If anything there efforts might make Vulkan look more attractive than DirectX...

Ive read from users here gears runs really well and looks better than the Xbox one version. few dropped frames, but that's it.

The Xbox app on pc is due an upgrade this year with the issues you want fixed.

Why does esram become an issue. Ms SDK for Xbox one tiles for esram without the dev having to do much at all.

Phil Spencer said last week he's working with 3rd parties to bring all pc titles to Xbox pc and direct x 12. As now 3rd parties can make Xbox console and Xbox pc games simultaneously with UWP. If a game gets made for Xbox console it will be on Xbox pc in the future. 3rd parties can also utilized cross buy just like MS first Party is doing.

Lets wait and see what happens when all of Ms First party is on Xbox pc later this year as well as 3rd party pc titles.



potato_hamster said:
TheMessiah said:

The developer doesnt have to do anything different from what they are now. Lok at Sea Of Thieves or Halo Wars 2 as great examples. The developer can just leave in higher PC graphical settings for the better version. And use lower PC settings for Version 1. Same way PS4 will run games at lower graphical settings. If this was a PS4 it woudnt be feasible as it doesnt have the universal Windows Platform.

Forza 6 Apex just announced uses UWP. Gears 4 will use UWP, Sea Of Thieves, Killer Instinct, Halo Wars 2, Quantum Break all use UWP And the developers have already said how easy it was to scale up the visuals with little work for the PC versions. Same would apply for a version 2 Xbox.

Of course the Xbox would be more powerful more frequently. Lets say the PS5 released in 2020. 7 years after PS4. It would be coming out against an Xbox with 16gb ram etc etc. Then in 2023 An new xbox version would release with better specs than the PS5. And again in 2026 another Xbox version to further the gap to PS5.So while the Playstation would have 2-3 years of a small power advantage. Xbox would have 4-5 years where its always significantly more powerful.

But the other difference is PS owners wont be able to play PS4 games on PS5. While Xbox owners continue to bring their entire catalog of games from 2013 through with them.

MS Im sure have done the maths. And are going ahead with this plan. Exactly how is yet to be revealed. But for sure we know its not going to be interchangable GPU's, CPUs, Ram etc sold seperately. And anymore lapse time than 3 years would make the model irrelevant as then you might as well just wait and do a new gen like they are already doing in the industry.

Im sure Oculus could be made to work on a version 2 Xbox. Just like the Morpheus runs on PS4 albeit not near Oculus PC levels.

You really don't have the slightest clue how console video games are actually made do you? You just have an idea in your head and you've just decided it's reality. You are way, way off. I know first hand whats it's like. I've used the developer tools and the dev kits. It's literally nothing like you think it is. It's not a matter of "just keeping the high settings they use on PC". Not at all.

Also, two words to keep in mind when referencing MS developers on MS technology: Cloud computing - A whole bunch of fluff that turned into a pile of nothing.

Crackdown 3 is nothing?

Have you made an Xbox one and Xbox Pc game using UWP? Because developers who have ( Turn 10, Remedy Games, Lionhead Studios, Iron Galaxy ) say different. For example Remedy started the Xbox pc version very late into development of the console version. Using UWP the game will be available on April 5th alongside the Xbox One version and cross buy to boot.



SvennoJ said:
TheMessiah said:

The developer doesnt have to do anything different from what they are now. Lok at Sea Of Thieves or Halo Wars 2 as great examples. The developer can just leave in higher PC graphical settings for the better version. And use lower PC settings for Version 1. Same way PS4 will run games at lower graphical settings. If this was a PS4 it woudnt be feasible as it doesnt have the universal Windows Platform.

Forza 6 Apex just announced uses UWP. Gears 4 will use UWP, Sea Of Thieves, Killer Instinct, Halo Wars 2, Quantum Break all use UWP And the developers have already said how easy it was to scale up the visuals with little work for the PC versions. Same would apply for a version 2 Xbox.

Of course the Xbox would be more powerful more frequently. Lets say the PS5 released in 2020. 7 years after PS4. It would be coming out against an Xbox with 16gb ram etc etc. Then in 2023 An new xbox version would release with better specs than the PS5. And again in 2026 another Xbox version to further the gap to PS5.So while the Playstation would have 2-3 years of a small power advantage. Xbox would have 4-5 years where its always significantly more powerful.

But the other difference is PS owners wont be able to play PS4 games on PS5. While Xbox owners continue to bring their entire catalog of games from 2013 through with them.

MS Im sure have done the maths. And are going ahead with this plan. Exactly how is yet to be revealed. But for sure we know its not going to be interchangable GPU's, CPUs, Ram etc sold seperately. And anymore lapse time than 3 years would make the model irrelevant as then you might as well just wait and do a new gen like they are already doing in the industry.

Im sure Oculus could be made to work on a version 2 Xbox. Just like the Morpheus runs on PS4 albeit not near Oculus PC levels.

Have you never gamed on PC before? Simply lowering some settings does not ensure a stable performance. The game has to be calibrated on a scene by scene basis or run with such gimped settings that there is plenty overhead to overcome the bottlenecks. True, scaling up is easy, not that that in anyway ensures getting anywhere close to the best out of the better hardware. Regardless of how it is done, each version still has to go through QA separately. Already been said numerous times.

And as I've already tried to explain as well, either the XBox that's better 3 years after the ps5 will have to be very expensive (to look significantly better) or it's only going to match it and the 6 year version is the one that looks significantly better. Plus simply having better specs on paper doesn't automatically mean noticeably better looking games. The WiiU, double the ram of ps3 and x360, 7 years in, wasn't any big step. Sure some games look pretty impressive now. However simply turning up a few sliders won't get the general public excited.

Last gen already showed the general gaming public doesn't care about BC. This new premium xbox model is going to be like the ps3 launch without coming off the back of a ps2 generation. Not going to be pretty.

From what I understand its because games haven't utilized UWP yet. If they did they would be available in the Xbox pc store. Scaling the graphics from Xbox to Xbox pc is easier when UWP is used. Because you don't have to change much code.

Different from how a developer currently ports games from console to pc.

Of course Visuals are the reason why MS would upgrade an Xbox. Admittedly they can add current tech they couldn't when the gen started like 4K Blu-ray, 4K Netflix etc to. Maybe a 2nd hdmi in.

The trains already in motion, and I guess we will see just how its done and whether the consumer likes this choice with their wallets or not.

After the huge praise Surface pro and now Surface Book have got Microsoft seem to be innovating much better these days with good results. Surface is getting a pretty good name. And is the leader in increasing hybrid market share. They seem on the ball the last few years. They have had a great turn around for Xbox One largely thanks to Phil Spencer. He seems really involved in making Xbox great again.

I'm sure the current Microsoft knows how to achieve this unity and upgrades. The Microsoft of the 2010-2013 Was a bit lost in the gaming sector and wasn't matching the good work done by the Windows and Surface teams.

I guess we will see later this year.



TheMessiah said:
potato_hamster said:

You really don't have the slightest clue how console video games are actually made do you? You just have an idea in your head and you've just decided it's reality. You are way, way off. I know first hand whats it's like. I've used the developer tools and the dev kits. It's literally nothing like you think it is. It's not a matter of "just keeping the high settings they use on PC". Not at all.

Also, two words to keep in mind when referencing MS developers on MS technology: Cloud computing - A whole bunch of fluff that turned into a pile of nothing.

Crackdown 3 is nothing?

Have you made an Xbox one and Xbox Pc game using UWP? Because developers who have ( Turn 10, Remedy Games, Lionhead Studios, Iron Galaxy ) say different. For example Remedy started the Xbox pc version very late into development of the console version. Using UWP the game will be available on April 5th alongside the Xbox One version and cross buy to boot.

Have you seen developers used the could in any meaningful way since? Did the difference it made to the game make the game signficantly better to justify the effort? Just because it can work doesn't mean it's worth the effort.

And no, I haven't made an X1 game using UWP. So what? Its a developer tool that may or may not make the process of porting back and forth to PC minorly or moderately to signifcantly easier. The truth of the matter has yet to be seen. I remember reading an article from a Crytek dev about how "the Cloud" was going to enable the X1 to blow the PS4 out of the water performance-wise or so nonsense. I'll actually believe it's practical utility when people I know and respect have put it through its paces. As of right now, it is a lot of marketing fluff, and I guarantee it's not as easy as everyone is making it out to be. Based on some demo's you'd swear it's literally a matter of a few mouse clicks to recompile an x1 game to a PC game. I promise you it is not nearly that easy. There are hundreds of examples of platforms be added late to a game's development and all versions coming out simultaneously. The fact that one or two games used this tool and added a PC copy "late in the development cycle" (which literally could have been over a year ago) isn't acutally evidence of anything. These teams could have worked OT for the past 10 months, just so the Producer could attend a conference and pretend how easy it was. We really don't know.

That being said, assuming the tool actually does work as advertised, I don't need to know anything about it to have an understanding to know what it takes to properly QA a video game. No matter how great this tool is, it is effectively double the effort to QA this game. Every time you submit a change, whether it be a completely new game mode, new menu, or a text game, you need to run your code through a series of tests to ensure that your submission didn't break the main, shared build of a game. On a PS4/X1 game these tests can take 30-45 minutes. Every. Single. Time. You're adding another 10-15 minutes to that easily, on dozens to hundreds of submissions a day. That time adds up to lost development time, you can't keep working on the game while it's testing because any changes would have to go through the tests again. On a AAA game, the additional cost would be millions of dollars, and that's just the development side of QA. The testing team would have to treat the new X1.5 like an entirely new platform and verify the game works exactly the same on the X1.5 as it does on the X1 and PS4. There aren't any two ways around that.  You have no idea how much additional work MS is asking of developers, and you just gloss it over like it isn't any big deal.




CGI-Quality said:

http://www.vgchartz.com/article/263488/spencer-i-wouldnt-say-our-strategy-is-to-unify-the-xbox-one-and-pc/

Maybe they're waiting for E3 to fully disclose their plans. In fact, I'd bet on it!

This article flies in the face and completely contradicts what many on this thread MS is "definitely doing".