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Forums - Nintendo - Opinion: As earlier NX releases, as bigger are the chances it wont be what your waiting for.

Thunderbird77 said:
Soundwave said:
NX is a platform anyway, likely not just a "system". This is an important distinction to make, it means NX is not any singular device.

As such an earlier release is better IMO.

For all head starts are *not* bad. Having a headstart helped the Genesis eventually hang tough with the Super NES because Sega had several years to build up a library.

The headstart definitely helped the Playstation establish itself before the N64 came to market too and make brand inroads big time.

The headstart for the PS2 basically won them the generation.

XBox 360 was helped by its year headstart too.

It's just a matter of not being completely outdated with your tech, which is the problem with the Wii U, but lets be honest, that is hardly the best chip Nintendo could have had for 2012, they very easily could've had a 1 TFLOP GPU (in line with the XB1 at least).

It's Nintendo's own insistence on the stupid "underpowered" hardware that hasn't helped them of late (it's not even that cheap to boot).

They need to go back to the SNES-GameCube design philosophy of good, relatively modern hardware which can still be sold at a reasonable price.

And then in 2017/2018 IMO they could release a 4K home NX which matches up evenly with the PS5. Most of the PS5's visual "jump" over the PS4 will be eaten up by that need to run 4K games anyway.

So just have multiple hardware models. The key is to get people locked into the NX ecosystem, once you do that it's much easier for the consumer to stay within the NX ecosystem rather than buy a seperate PS5/XB2 ... if I can just keep my game library and upgrade the hardware when I feel the need to, that's fine.

That would be both redundant and development hell (synce it's one more hardware to optimize games for.



 

And making 2 seperate libraries and being forced to make basically the same franchises twice for two different platforms is easier? 

Nintendo's next portable will effectively kill the console + handheld relationship that Nintendo has had simply because it's not feasible for Nintendo to basically support two distinct consoles (yes the portable IS a console going forward for all intents and purposes because the portable games will be require such high resources). 

A Vita-to-Wii U level portable

and a PS4 level console

Is not feasible. Nintendo cannot support both. Sony is barely just now getting their 1st/2nd party PS4 support going and they don't really even support the Vita. 

And Nintendo's known this for a while IMO. That's where the NX concept was birthed from and at the heart of why it's a "new concept". 

 



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Soundwave said:

They should be able to make something considerably more powerful than a PS4 this year or next year though. You don't need to wait until 2018.

AMD has 14nm/16nm Arctic Islands GPUs coming this year that will blow the PS4's GPU out of the water.

I'd say release a 3TFLOP-range high end console this fall and start building that userbase quick (having Zelda, Splatoon 2, and Mario 3D in the first 6-8 months will be critical).

Then in 2018 release a 4K NX model. 

NX is a platform, it's no single console or portable. Nintendo games just scale up and down, third parties have the choice (games can work on specific models depending on hardware need or all them if they want). 

Why adhere to "rules" if they only benefit Sony/MS. Change the rules, it's 2016, you don't have to keep making hardware like it's 1989 forever. 

Arent you changing your speech? your history shows you adamantly wanting a wii u successor with 1.6 teraflops, now you want almost double that (still too low though). Make up your mind.

As I said before, a "4k model" is totally unecessary and more models means more money optimizing games (making it even more redundant and unecessary).



Thunderbird77 said:
Soundwave said:

They should be able to make something considerably more powerful than a PS4 this year or next year though. You don't need to wait until 2018.

AMD has 14nm/16nm Arctic Islands GPUs coming this year that will blow the PS4's GPU out of the water.

I'd say release a 3TFLOP-range high end console this fall and start building that userbase quick (having Zelda, Splatoon 2, and Mario 3D in the first 6-8 months will be critical).

Then in 2018 release a 4K NX model. 

NX is a platform, it's no single console or portable. Nintendo games just scale up and down, third parties have the choice (games can work on specific models depending on hardware need or all them if they want). 

Why adhere to "rules" if they only benefit Sony/MS. Change the rules, it's 2016, you don't have to keep making hardware like it's 1989 forever. 

Arent you changing your speech? your history shows you adamantly wanting a wii u successor with 1.6 teraflops, now you want almost double that (still too low though). Make up your mind.

As I said before, a "4k model" is totally unecessary and more models means more money optimizing games (making it even more redundant and unecessary).

 

I'm advocating for one library. 

That means Nintendo no longer makes Mario 3D Land and Mario 3D World and Smash Bros. U and Smash Bros. 3D, etc. etc. 

They make *one* game. Then they scale the game's settings up and down to be able to play on the different devices. Can be as simple as just upping the resolution and adding a few effects, not a dramatic redo. This will also benefit Nintendo massively in that their best games (like Splatoon, Bayonetta, Mario 3D World) are no longer stuck selling to 1/4th their own fanbase, and the portable players (which is the vast majority of Nintendo's actual userbase) can buy these games. 

Your best games should not be locked off from the 75% majority of you audience, it's a stupid business model, we just don't question it because "that's how it's always been done" (which is equally stupid reasoning). 

Nintendo games scale quite well because of the cartoony art style, look at Wind Waker HD, it doesn't look out of place amongst games 2 generations older just with a little HD polish. Mario Kart 8 would probably look well at home even on a PS4 if you scaled it up to 1080P + 4X AA and added a few effects. 

The various NX models can play all the core Nintendo games. I'd advocate for different hardware models then because what the hell is the point of having a cheap console and cheap portable both aimed at the same audience? Embrace the switch to a platform (rather than singular hardware) centric business and offer models for differing audience bases. 



Soundwave said:
Thunderbird77 said:

That would be both redundant and development hell (synce it's one more hardware to optimize games for.



 

And making 2 seperate libraries and being forced to make basically the same franchises twice for two different platforms is easier? 

Nintendo's next portable will effectively kill the console + handheld relationship that Nintendo has had simply because it's not feasible for Nintendo to basically support two distinct consoles (yes the portable IS a console going forward for all intents and purposes because the portable games will be require such high resources). 

A Vita-to-Wii U level portable

and a PS4 level console

Is not feasible. Nintendo cannot support both. Sony is barely just now getting their 1st/2nd party PS4 support going and they don't really even support the Vita. 

And Nintendo's known this for a while IMO. That's where the NX concept was birthed from and at the heart of why it's a "new concept". 

 

OMG, did you even read? They will have a distinct handheld and a home console. More versions of one or the other (like your "4k model example") are redundant for the audience and would need more money to optimize the games.

Why would they make the same franchise twice for two platforms? Getting major multiplayer titles like MK, smash, splatoon, animal crossing + smaller 3d and 2d titles on both portable and home console with cross buy and online multiplayer is feasible and smart. Each system should still have it's own big exclusives.

edit: Just a reminder that the next portable won't have wii u power and the next home console will be a significant jump from ps4.



Thunderbird77 said:
Soundwave said:

 

And making 2 seperate libraries and being forced to make basically the same franchises twice for two different platforms is easier? 

Nintendo's next portable will effectively kill the console + handheld relationship that Nintendo has had simply because it's not feasible for Nintendo to basically support two distinct consoles (yes the portable IS a console going forward for all intents and purposes because the portable games will be require such high resources). 

A Vita-to-Wii U level portable

and a PS4 level console

Is not feasible. Nintendo cannot support both. Sony is barely just now getting their 1st/2nd party PS4 support going and they don't really even support the Vita. 

And Nintendo's known this for a while IMO. That's where the NX concept was birthed from and at the heart of why it's a "new concept". 

 

OMG, did you even read? They will have a distinct handheld and a home console. More versions of one or the other (like your "4k model example") are redundant for the audience and would need more money to optimize the games.

Why would they make the same franchise twice for two platforms? Getting major multiplayer titles like MK, smash, splatoon, animal crossing + smaller 3d and 2d titles on both portable and home console with cross buy and online multiplayer is feasible and smart. Each system should still have it's own big exclusives.



 

I don't think system specific exclusives are feasible any longer for Nintendo. 

The portable is not some cute little kid brother, it's a full fledged console, I think people are going to have to understand that. Nintendo cannot make specific games for both without suffering massive delays. 

Even look at Sony, they just *now* are starting to rev up PS4 releases in-house and they have no Vita to support. If they had to support the Vita simulatenously there's no chance they could adequetly supply software for both. 

Having two platforms was feasible back when portable games had this scope:

 

But the next Nintendo portable will likely be able to run games like this:

And this:

And you want PS4 graphics level exclusives for the console too? Gooooooooooood luck. 

Segregated libraries aren't even a good thing really. If I have a hit game like Splatoon or the Zelda game above that I've spent a ton of money making, I want it available to ALL my consumers, not 20% of them. That's not good business. 



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Soundwave said:
Thunderbird77 said:

Arent you changing your speech? your history shows you adamantly wanting a wii u successor with 1.6 teraflops, now you want almost double that (still too low though). Make up your mind.

As I said before, a "4k model" is totally unecessary and more models means more money optimizing games (making it even more redundant and unecessary).

 

I'm advocating for one library. 

That means Nintendo no longer makes Mario 3D Land and Mario 3D World and Smash Bros. U and Smash Bros. 3D, etc. etc. 

They make *one* game. Then they scale the game's settings up and down to be able to play on the different devices. Can be as simple as just upping the resolution and adding a few effects, not a dramatic redo. This will also benefit Nintendo massively in that their best games (like Splatoon, Bayonetta, Mario 3D World) are no longer stuck selling to 1/4th their own fanbase, and the portable players (which is the vast majority of Nintendo's actual userbase) can buy these games. 

Your best games should not be locked off from the 75% majority of you audience, it's a stupid business model, we just don't question it because "that's how it's always been done" (which is equally stupid reasoning). 

Nintendo games scale quite well because of the cartoony art style, look at Wind Waker HD, it doesn't look out of place amongst games 2 generations older just with a little HD polish. Mario Kart 8 would probably look well at home even on a PS4 if you scaled it up to 1080P + 4X AA and added a few effects. 

The various NX models can play all the core Nintendo games. I'd advocate for different hardware models then because what the hell is the point of having a cheap console and cheap portable both aimed at the same audience? Embrace the switch to a platform (rather than singular hardware) centric business and offer models for differing audience bases. 

You need far better understanding of hardware. Unless the home console's power is completely wasted, the games made for it will need downgrades and optimization to fit the handheld. it's not as expensive as making two games but it costs considerably more than making a single game. Then there are  huge games (like a 3d mario/zelda/metroid) that would cost much more to downgrade and would be stupid to do so anyway, since all platforms need their exclusives.





Thunderbird77 said:
Soundwave said:

 

I'm advocating for one library. 

That means Nintendo no longer makes Mario 3D Land and Mario 3D World and Smash Bros. U and Smash Bros. 3D, etc. etc. 

They make *one* game. Then they scale the game's settings up and down to be able to play on the different devices. Can be as simple as just upping the resolution and adding a few effects, not a dramatic redo. This will also benefit Nintendo massively in that their best games (like Splatoon, Bayonetta, Mario 3D World) are no longer stuck selling to 1/4th their own fanbase, and the portable players (which is the vast majority of Nintendo's actual userbase) can buy these games. 

Your best games should not be locked off from the 75% majority of you audience, it's a stupid business model, we just don't question it because "that's how it's always been done" (which is equally stupid reasoning). 

Nintendo games scale quite well because of the cartoony art style, look at Wind Waker HD, it doesn't look out of place amongst games 2 generations older just with a little HD polish. Mario Kart 8 would probably look well at home even on a PS4 if you scaled it up to 1080P + 4X AA and added a few effects. 

The various NX models can play all the core Nintendo games. I'd advocate for different hardware models then because what the hell is the point of having a cheap console and cheap portable both aimed at the same audience? Embrace the switch to a platform (rather than singular hardware) centric business and offer models for differing audience bases. 

You need far better understanding of hardware. Unless the home console's power is completely wasted, the games made for it will need downgrades and optimization to fit the handheld. it's not as expensive as making two games but it costs considerably more than making a single game. Then there are  huge games (like a 3d mario/zelda/metroid) that would cost much more to downgrade and would be stupid to do so anyway, since all platforms need their exclusives.



 

You're acting like Nintendo has a choice. 

There is no choice. 

Nintendo cannot support a PS4 level console and a PS3/360 level portable. Sony or MS wouldn't be able to to do it either

So the only alternative then is to basically kill the console entirely and just make portables, but I doubt you're gung ho about that idea. 

But two distinct hardware platforms is over, the days where that was possible are long gone. Portable games aren't a joke anymore, they will require large teams and long dev cycles themselves going forward and the portable requires all the big gun Nintendo IP going forward too since it's the stronger seller.

Nintendo can't even keep up with the Wii U and 3DS as is. One's library suffers when they focus on the other. 

This is why Iwata started talking about unified library and iOS/Android like platform structure I feel ... they did the math 2+ years ago and realized they couldn't continue the same way forever. A share library is the only way they can have a console and portable going forward, the only alternative was basically killing the console line. 



kitler53 said:
NaviTheBeast said:
Please expain the relationship between an early release and casual games, can't connect those dots together.

the OP wants a traditional console (like ps4).  nintendo releasing a traditional console in 2016 when ps4 is the "it" product with an install base approaching 50 million would be stupid for nintendo,.. they'd get slaughtered.  therefore if they are launching in 2016 they must be launching a product that is entirely non-traditional like the wii.  the wii only had casual games.

.    .    .

LOL ok.... you sure sound like you know a whole lot about the wii's library. 





Soundwave said:

 

I don't think system specific exclusives are feasible any longer for Nintendo. 

The portable is not some cute little kid brother, it's a full fledged console, I think people are going to have to understand that. Nintendo cannot make specific games for both without suffering massive delays. 

Even look at Sony, they just *now* are starting to rev up PS4 releases in-house and they have no Vita to support. If they had to support the Vita simulatenously there's no chance they could adequetly supply software for both. 

Having two platforms was feasible back when portable games had this scope:

 

But the next Nintendo portable will likely be able to run games like this:

And this:

And you want PS4 graphics level exclusives for the console too? Gooooooooooood luck. 

Segregated libraries aren't even a good thing really. If I have a hit game like Splatoon or the Zelda game above that I've spent a ton of money making, I want it available to ALL my consumers, not 20% of them. That's not good business. 

Are you seriously comparing sony first party devs with nintendo's? Look at the games nintendo made in the past years.

The next handheld won't have that level of graphical fidelity (although it will still surpass ps360).

I don't want ps4 level graphics exclusives in the next home console, I know it will be confortably above ps4 graphics at better framerates and possibly 1440p on 4k tvs. Making better looking games doesn't cost more, it's just what comes naturally with better hardware.





Thunderbird77 said:
Soundwave said:

 

I don't think system specific exclusives are feasible any longer for Nintendo. 

The portable is not some cute little kid brother, it's a full fledged console, I think people are going to have to understand that. Nintendo cannot make specific games for both without suffering massive delays. 

Even look at Sony, they just *now* are starting to rev up PS4 releases in-house and they have no Vita to support. If they had to support the Vita simulatenously there's no chance they could adequetly supply software for both. 

Having two platforms was feasible back when portable games had this scope:

 

But the next Nintendo portable will likely be able to run games like this:

And this:

And you want PS4 graphics level exclusives for the console too? Gooooooooooood luck. 

Segregated libraries aren't even a good thing really. If I have a hit game like Splatoon or the Zelda game above that I've spent a ton of money making, I want it available to ALL my consumers, not 20% of them. That's not good business. 

Are you seriously comparing sony first party devs with nintendo's? Look at the games nintendo made in the past years.

The next handheld won't have that level of graphical fidelity (although it will still surpass ps360).

I don't want ps4 level graphics exclusives in the next home console, I know it will be confortably above ps4 graphics at better framerates and possibly 1440p on 4k tvs. Making better looking games doesn't cost more, it's just what comes naturally with better hardware.



 

It doesn't even matter if the home console is a minor upgrade, if your portable is PS360 as you say in your post, that's pretty much the end for the old Nintendo hardware model. 

The costs/dev resources/project scope for portable games becomes much larger once you cross into the threshold of PS360 level visuals. 

That's effectively *two consoles* ... Nintendo can't even support the Wii U and 3DS as is without dissapointing people 1/2 the time, they simply cannot go any futher with natural hardware progression and be able to support it. 

It was stupid anyway ... imagine spending $200 million on a Star Wars movie and then forcing it into a type of theater where only 25% of the fans can watch it. Would you say that's a smart business model? 

This is basically what Nintendo does. 75% of their hardware base this generation will never play Splatoon or Zelda U or Xenoblade X or Bayonetta 2 or Pikmin 3 or Mario 3D World. Why? Because they didn't buy the Wii U. 

At some point I think it's smarter to stop lecturing people on what hardware they should be buying and just let them have access to the games, in other words enough with the hardware worship. All this was ever about was letting people have access to the games (where the real money is made). 

So why not have a rethink of what constitutes a hardware platform? Why are we stuck with rules that were invented for the 1980s gaming market? Which of these rules even benefits Nintendo any longer?