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Forums - Movies & TV - J.J. Abrams responds to criticism over TFA being a rip-off of A New Hope

thismeintiel said:
kurasakiichimaru said:
AbbathTheGrim said:

I think their problem is not that she is a powerful female jedi, but how fast she seems to have become one.

Nah they are mad cause they overhyped Kylo Ren. He's a weak jedi-to-be-sith-trainee. It's not Rey's fault that she's better in tune with the force, the fact she has a stable mental and psychological status and the fact he has severe daddy issues are helping her cause. Chewbacca shot him too which made it really really easier.

You're saying she's a powerful jedI but without definite power levels between someone like Luke and her. Its possible near death Yoda or those unnamed  young Jedis could one shot her and Ben. 

Wow, I guess you weren't joking.

Well, I contend that you and the filmmakers are the true sexists.  One of three ways.  Either a) you are fine with her being completely in tune with the force just because she is a girl, while people on here would have been equally pissed if when they found Anakin in Ep. 1 he would have almost everything mastered everything in a couple of days, since that's lazy writing or b) you wanted a strong female character and to you that means "girl power" overcomes all or c) you don't feel girls deserve the character arc that a man would be given in having to train to become better.

For as much as they copied story elements from New Hope, Luke didn't have mastery of the force instantly. He was able to trust his "gut" (force) to launch a torpedo. In episode #2 he was able to do a force telekinesis (months after some minor Obi-Won training); and couldn't mind trick anyone until months after yoda's training and his confrontation with Darth Vader.

Luke was never able to mind read in any of the movies -- or even the books as far as I remember.

Rey was able to gain mastery over all these talents in ~ 24 hours.



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I wasn't gonna do this, cuz I know its pointless. But since the conversation is already going this way, I might as well say it if because I really, really want to:

I'm not sure how defeating a severely injured Kylo Ren with previously demonstrated and honed fighting ability, using force persuasion on a brainwashed storm trooper, and being a natural pilot make Rey a "Jedi goddess". These aren't amazing things for gifted jedi. This is no more unusual than Anakin being the only human capable of flying a pod racer/being able to guess what's on the other side of Jedi flashcards/being able to accidentally explode a capital ship his first time out on a Naboo star fighter. It's been pretty clearly shown that you don't need to even know what the force is be able to use it, providing you are with the force enough. Luke didn't need more than a few hours with Obi Wan, or ANY training at the Rebel Academy before he was flying an X-Wing in space alongside veteran pilots, used the force to make a shot no veteran pilot could make (and without a targeting computer) and force-pulling a lightsaber. And the kid wasn't living some harsh life where he had to carry a staff around with him at all times for self defense, nor did he live around a bunch of star ships that he spent his entire childhood learning about. He was a god damned MOISTURE farmer.

A Star Wars trilogy has always started with a gifted person being able to do awesome, implausible things because of this vague, universe-wide power that they happen to be in-tune with. It's not logical. It's not this quantifiable thing that requires "this" amount of training to master. It has always been vague and fluid and bended for the sake of the plot. Its a fictional super power. For these characters, this power is at first unrefined and used inconsistently, and then over the course of the next two movies the characters skill with it is refined and they become an accomplished Jedi.

I disagree with the above user who asserts that its because of "sexism". TFA just takes whats been established in previous films and does something...well, different with it. People who saw the older movies when they were younger, come into these movie as an adult and analyzes this movie as an adult, and see this movie against others where the characters have already gone through their arcs. They had to receive their training to "get good". To defeat their first light saber wielding darksider.

But make no mistake, Rey isn't "good". She is raw, unrefined, naturally powerful with the force, and lucky. Had her opponent been an older, experienced force-user with no interest in toying with her, she would have been dead within minutes, regardless of her years of experience defending herself on Jakku. Had her guard been a stronger-willed foe rather than a trooper who's been brainwashed from birth to blindly obey, she wouldn't have gotten out of those restraints. Had she gotten into a ship that wasn't the Falcon, she never would have found Han and Chewie, never would have gotten Luke's saber, and never would have gotten those visions or learned of the force. Being naturally gifted and lucky is nothing new for a Star Wars protagonist.

Rey isn't my favorite character in the movie, but I find her likeable enough. She reminds of Luke, if Luke had lived a hard life that beat the whineness out of him. But anyone who think Rey had it too easy in this film...well, just wait until the next one. These sorts of stories have some predictability to them, and I can assure you that she will not have a good time of in the next film, especially if Attack of the Clones and Empire Strikes Back are any indication. You've got to let your hero get to a high point before the fall. We'll also be getting answers regarding Rey's past, which even she is unaware with, which MIGHT just include some training with a certain last of the Jedi. That should help if Rey's offscreen experience on Jakku isn't enough for you.

I think I'll leave this with something pasted straight from the Star Wars website (though, again, this stuff WAS established in the movie):

"Rey is a Jakku scavenger, a survivor toughened by life on a harsh desert planet. When the fugitive droid BB-8 appeals to her for help, Rey finds herself drawn into a galaxy-spanning conflict. Despite dismissing herself as “no one,” she learns that her life is being shaped by the mysterious power of the Force.

Rey grew up on Jakku, eking out a life as a scavenger and hoping that one day whoever had left her on the barren desert world would return. She learned how to survive, becoming a gifted mechanic, pilot and warrior. But she seemed destined to live out her days on a forlorn backwater world, ignorant of the larger galaxy and its perils and possibilities."

Wow, that doesn't sound like any other Star Wars protagonist at all. XD



kurasakiichimaru said:
sabvre42 said:

Obviously you are racist and just hate Fin because he is black. Why is it that a white female has to be stronger than a black guy? Everything you are saying is infact racism.

The fact you're being cornered and you're using the racist card when every jedi can be from practically all races besides probably fish and as you say Finn has not been implied as a Jedi. Proves the point of the sexism against Rey sadly.tHank you for proving my point. ;)

Because Rey was the first female jedi ever right?

I guess the whole clone wars series doesn't exist.

I guess leia doesn't exist.

I guess the female jedis on the council never existed.

I guess the whole jedi academy female apprentices never existed (well... i guess this one i have to cede as disney fucked the EU).



thismeintiel said:
sabvre42 said:
kurasakiichimaru said:

Ummm stop.The fact Finn with not even a drop of Midichlorblahs on his body got to hit and withstand Kylo Ren too long when he can't even beat a Stormtrooper is an even a crying mess. You don't see us gloating about it the way you and the rest of the Rey Haters do with Rey is infact sexism.

Obviously you are racist and just hate Fin because he is black. Why is it that a white female has to be stronger than a black guy? Everything you are saying is infact racism.

OMG, you are right.  I think this guy needs to be banned for all the racially insensitive stuff he is spewing.  A black man with combat training can't fight a white man who also had combat training.  Someone needs to check their white privilege. 



The backseat modding cause you can't disprove my allegiations of sexism. :c

The fact a woman.can't even be powerful because reasons. What more for black female jedi. what more for for a black transgender jedi cause Rey can't be who she is cause of reasons. Crazy, isnt it?



nuckles87 said:
I wasn't gonna do this, cuz I know its pointless. But since the conversation is already going this way, I might as well say it if because I really, really want to:

I'm not sure how defeating a severely injured Kylo Ren with previously demonstrated and honed fighting ability, using force persuasion on a brainwashed storm trooper, and being a natural pilot make Rey a "Jedi goddess". These aren't amazing things for gifted jedi. This is no more unusual than Anakin being the only human capable of flying a pod racer/being able to guess what's on the other side of Jedi flashcards/being able to accidentally explode a capital ship his first time out on a Naboo star fighter. It's been pretty clearly shown that you don't need to even know what the force is be able to use it, providing you are with the force enough. Luke didn't need more than a few hours with Obi Wan, or ANY training at the Rebel Academy before he was flying an X-Wing in space alongside veteran pilots, used the force to make a shot no veteran pilot could make (and without a targeting computer) and force-pulling a lightsaber. And the kid wasn't living some harsh life where he had to carry a staff around with him at all times for self defense, nor did he live around a bunch of star ships that he spent his entire childhood learning about. He was a god damned MOISTURE farmer.

A Star Wars trilogy has always started with a gifted person being able to do awesome, implausible things because of this vague, universe-wide power that they happen to be in-tune with. It's not logical. It's not this quantifiable thing that requires "this" amount of training to master. It has always been vague and fluid and bended for the sake of the plot. Its a fictional super power. For these characters, this power is at first unrefined and used inconsistently, and then over the course of the next two movies the characters skill with it is refined and they become an accomplished Jedi.

I disagree with the above user who asserts that its because of "sexism". TFA just takes whats been established in previous films and does something...well, different with it. People who saw the older movies when they were younger, come into these movie as an adult and analyzes this movie as an adult, and see this movie against others where the characters have already gone through their arcs. They had to receive their training to "get good". To defeat their first light saber wielding darksider.

But make no mistake, Rey isn't "good". She is raw, unrefined, naturally powerful with the force, and lucky. Had her opponent been an older, experienced force-user with no interest in toying with her, she would have been dead within minutes, regardless of her years of experience defending herself on Jakku. Had her guard been a stronger-willed foe rather than a trooper who's been brainwashed from birth to blindly obey, she wouldn't have gotten out of those restraints. Had she gotten into a ship that wasn't the Falcon, she never would have found Han and Chewie, never would have gotten Luke's saber, and never would have gotten those visions or learned of the force. Being naturally gifted and lucky is nothing new for a Star Wars protagonist.

Rey isn't my favorite character in the movie, but I find her likeable enough. She reminds of Luke, if Luke had lived a hard life that beat the whineness out of him. But anyone who think Rey had it too easy in this film...well, just wait until the next one. These sorts of stories have some predictability to them, and I can assure you that she will not have a good time of in the next film, especially if Attack of the Clones and Empire Strikes Back are any indication. You've got to let your hero get to a high point before the fall. We'll also be getting answers regarding Rey's past.

1.) Force Reflexes
2.) Natural Pilot
3.) Force Pull (Telekinesis)
4.) Resist Mind Reading
5.) Actual Mind Reading against a Sith (one that can stop blasters with the force and could force the superstar republic pilot to spew his guts)
6.) The ability to beat a trained Sith (one trained by both Luke for several years + Snoke for more) in a 1:1 lightsaber duel.

Its quite a bit more than a few minor tricks. 





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Guitarguy said:

You don't have to utilize the same concepts and plotlines in order to present interesting character relationships and to 'embrace the history'. TFA was not embracing history, it was a complete replica. How exactly did the movie go forward? It is the same absolutely evil emporer/conflicted apprentice(Vader/ Kylo Ren)/all decent(parentless) hero/exiled jedi master story all over again. Could they not come up with anything else? I can understand people being entertained by the movie, I can't take that away but it IS a rehash of the original trilogy.

 


I was watching Episode IV again this morning and I don't get all this rip-off discussion at all. That movie is slow-paced, badly written and hasn't aged very well IMO. Force Awakens is way better in every single way, it's actually exciting. Sure, it borrowed some elements from the original one but I don't see how people claim it's the exact same movie, almost a remake.



sabvre42 said:
nuckles87 said:
I wasn't gonna do this, cuz I know its pointless. But since the conversation is already going this way, I might as well say it if because I really, really want to:

I'm not sure how defeating a severely injured Kylo Ren with previously demonstrated and honed fighting ability, using force persuasion on a brainwashed storm trooper, and being a natural pilot make Rey a "Jedi goddess". These aren't amazing things for gifted jedi. This is no more unusual than Anakin being the only human capable of flying a pod racer/being able to guess what's on the other side of Jedi flashcards/being able to accidentally explode a capital ship his first time out on a Naboo star fighter. It's been pretty clearly shown that you don't need to even know what the force is be able to use it, providing you are with the force enough. Luke didn't need more than a few hours with Obi Wan, or ANY training at the Rebel Academy before he was flying an X-Wing in space alongside veteran pilots, used the force to make a shot no veteran pilot could make (and without a targeting computer) and force-pulling a lightsaber. And the kid wasn't living some harsh life where he had to carry a staff around with him at all times for self defense, nor did he live around a bunch of star ships that he spent his entire childhood learning about. He was a god damned MOISTURE farmer.

A Star Wars trilogy has always started with a gifted person being able to do awesome, implausible things because of this vague, universe-wide power that they happen to be in-tune with. It's not logical. It's not this quantifiable thing that requires "this" amount of training to master. It has always been vague and fluid and bended for the sake of the plot. Its a fictional super power. For these characters, this power is at first unrefined and used inconsistently, and then over the course of the next two movies the characters skill with it is refined and they become an accomplished Jedi.

I disagree with the above user who asserts that its because of "sexism". TFA just takes whats been established in previous films and does something...well, different with it. People who saw the older movies when they were younger, come into these movie as an adult and analyzes this movie as an adult, and see this movie against others where the characters have already gone through their arcs. They had to receive their training to "get good". To defeat their first light saber wielding darksider.

But make no mistake, Rey isn't "good". She is raw, unrefined, naturally powerful with the force, and lucky. Had her opponent been an older, experienced force-user with no interest in toying with her, she would have been dead within minutes, regardless of her years of experience defending herself on Jakku. Had her guard been a stronger-willed foe rather than a trooper who's been brainwashed from birth to blindly obey, she wouldn't have gotten out of those restraints. Had she gotten into a ship that wasn't the Falcon, she never would have found Han and Chewie, never would have gotten Luke's saber, and never would have gotten those visions or learned of the force. Being naturally gifted and lucky is nothing new for a Star Wars protagonist.

Rey isn't my favorite character in the movie, but I find her likeable enough. She reminds of Luke, if Luke had lived a hard life that beat the whineness out of him. But anyone who think Rey had it too easy in this film...well, just wait until the next one. These sorts of stories have some predictability to them, and I can assure you that she will not have a good time of in the next film, especially if Attack of the Clones and Empire Strikes Back are any indication. You've got to let your hero get to a high point before the fall. We'll also be getting answers regarding Rey's past, which even she is unaware with, which MIGHT just include some training with a certain last of the Jedi. That should help if Rey's offscreen experience on Jakku isn't enough for you.

I think I'll leave this with something pasted straight from the Star Wars website (though, again, this stuff WAS established in the movie):

"Rey is a Jakku scavenger, a survivor toughened by life on a harsh desert planet. When the fugitive droid BB-8 appeals to her for help, Rey finds herself drawn into a galaxy-spanning conflict. Despite dismissing herself as “no one,” she learns that her life is being shaped by the mysterious power of the Force.

Rey grew up on Jakku, eking out a life as a scavenger and hoping that one day whoever had left her on the barren desert world would return. She learned how to survive, becoming a gifted mechanic, pilot and warrior. But she seemed destined to live out her days on a forlorn backwater world, ignorant of the larger galaxy and its perils and possibilities."

Wow, that doesn't sound like any other Star Wars protagonist at all. XD


1.) Force Reflexes
2.) Natural Pilot
3.) Force Pull (Telekinesis)
4.) Resist Mind Reading
5.) Actual Mind Reading against a Sith (one that can stop blasters with the force and could force the superstar republic pilot to spew his guts)
6.) The ability to beat a trained Sith (one trained by both Luke for several years + Snoke for more) in a 1:1 lightsaber duel.

Its quite a bit more than a few minor tricks. 



 

I didn't call them minor tricks. They just aren't that unusual for a gifted Jedi. You know, like Anakin. Or Luke. People who are INCREDIBLY strong with the Force, as Rey is. For an average Jedi, its impressive, but not for the kind of Jedi that the Star Wars films has always centered around. I also addressed most of these with other examples from other movies in my post already. XD

But hey, I'll throw in mindreading now: Leia resisting the mind probe. Darth Vader couldn't get nuttin out of her.

I'd go further, but I won't because you completely ignored my central point regarding the nature of the force in these movies just to comment on Rey being too good at things.





sabvre42 said:

1.) Force Reflexes
2.) Natural Pilot
3.) Force Pull (Telekinesis)
4.) Resist Mind Reading
5.) Actual Mind Reading against a Sith (one that can stop blasters with the force and could force the superstar republic pilot to spew his guts)
6.) The ability to beat a trained Sith (one trained by both Luke for several years + Snoke for more) in a 1:1 lightsaber duel.

Its quite a bit more than a few minor tricks. 



Rey is clearly Luke's daughter so that gives her half the skills of a Jedi by default. She is also shown to be a strong character that takes care of herself, living on her own and surviving on a harsh enviroment unlike Anakin and Luke who were whiny and spoiled brats and had everything just handed to them. It's also possible she was trained before being left behind in Jakku.

And Kylo Ren is not even a Sith yet, he's still training and temperamental. Plus he was basically dying and had just killed his father, not exactly at his finest. Why isn't anyone questioning why he wasn't killed instantly by Chewbacca's blast. Is it a plot hole? Is he a Gary Stu or just a Sith God? No, people just let it go.

The truth is, Rey would not be scrutinized so much if she were a man.



sabvre42 said:
thismeintiel said:
kurasakiichimaru said:
AbbathTheGrim said:

I think their problem is not that she is a powerful female jedi, but how fast she seems to have become one.

Nah they are mad cause they overhyped Kylo Ren. He's a weak jedi-to-be-sith-trainee. It's not Rey's fault that she's better in tune with the force, the fact she has a stable mental and psychological status and the fact he has severe daddy issues are helping her cause. Chewbacca shot him too which made it really really easier.

You're saying she's a powerful jedI but without definite power levels between someone like Luke and her. Its possible near death Yoda or those unnamed  young Jedis could one shot her and Ben. 

Wow, I guess you weren't joking.

Well, I contend that you and the filmmakers are the true sexists.  One of three ways.  Either a) you are fine with her being completely in tune with the force just because she is a girl, while people on here would have been equally pissed if when they found Anakin in Ep. 1 he would have almost everything mastered everything in a couple of days, since that's lazy writing or b) you wanted a strong female character and to you that means "girl power" overcomes all or c) you don't feel girls deserve the character arc that a man would be given in having to train to become better.

For as much as they copied story elements from New Hope, Luke didn't have mastery of the force instantly. He was able to trust his "gut" (force) to launch a torpedo. In episode #2 he was able to do a force telekinesis (months after some minor Obi-Won training); and couldn't mind trick anyone until months after yoda's training and his confrontation with Darth Vader.

Luke was never able to mind read in any of the movies -- or even the books as far as I remember.

Rey was able to gain mastery over all these talents in ~ 24 hours.

The fact you keep on clinging to this when a simple explanation as a certain aptitude to the force is not even a remote possibility for you.

But ofcourse we have to go back with Luke, when he's probably the most inept to the force when he began training as Yoda said to backtrack us to the fact that Finn has such master potential when he can withstand Kylo Ren because of reasons unknown to man.

The fact Rey has to suffer these criticism because she's a woman with a gift. I mean in a fictional world where she beats a weak minded,injured, incompetent and unstable jedi-turned-sith-with-not-so-good-enough-training-in-both.



gatito said:
sabvre42 said:

1.) Force Reflexes
2.) Natural Pilot
3.) Force Pull (Telekinesis)
4.) Resist Mind Reading
5.) Actual Mind Reading against a Sith (one that can stop blasters with the force and could force the superstar republic pilot to spew his guts)
6.) The ability to beat a trained Sith (one trained by both Luke for several years + Snoke for more) in a 1:1 lightsaber duel.

Its quite a bit more than a few minor tricks. 



Rey is clearly Luke's daughter so that gives her half the skills of a Jedi by default. She is also shown to be a strong character that takes care of herself, living on her own and surviving on a harsh enviroment unlike Anakin and Luke who were whiny and spoiled brats and had everything just handed to them. It's also possible she was trained before being left behind in Jakku.

And Kylo Ren is not even a Sith yet, he's still training and temperamental. Plus he was basically dying and had just killed his father, not exactly at his finest. Why isn't anyone questioning why he wasn't killed instantly by Chewbacca's blast. Is it a plot hole? Is he a Gary Stu or just a Sith God? No, people just let it go.

The truth is, Rey would not be scrutinized so much if she were a man.

You do not inherit force powers for being the child of someone. Luke was the child of anakin and did not just discover the ability to mind control.. He was demonstrated it by Obi-Won prior to using it probably years later (pending a force strengthening by yoda).

Kylo Ren was the whole reason that Luke went into hiding. Because of the shame he felt from Kylo years prior going darkside (and likely killing the other trainees). He had YEARS of training prior to snoke's training.

Chewbacca shot him in the leg. I guess this is CoD now right?

Even in the EU when Kip went godlike -- it was NOT instantaneous and he was somewhat possesed by a Sith Lord.