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Forums - Sales Discussion - Nintendo means bad news for 3rd parties!

marc on 18 May 2007
Shane said:
Nintendo did what was best for Nintendo, as Nintendo always does. They did not take into account how it would impact third parties because they don't care. This was probably the best move for them, but it did ensure they would have trouble getting any key franchises. Install base means nothing if 60-85% of all games sold are first party... unless that install base has the penetration of the DS, and even then it's iffy

Shane: Every post you have made so far has... not very well thought. What possible motivation would any company have from preventing 3rd party support? If they really wanted to do this, they would have just locked the entire system down to themselves which would have been cheaper for them since they didnt need to support anyone else but they didnt do that. None of the consoles did that. Hell no console in console history has ever done that.

Companies have tried to corner markets. They have purchased exclusivities and they may even buy out companies for their titles. But they have never turned away 3rd parties. It would make no sense. Along those lines, every company is guilty of those tactics.

They didnt take it into account the impact on 3rd parties? Even a 10 year old knows they shouldnt piss off the entire industry. Im sure this didnt get past them. Not get key franchises? Did you forget that franchises always move to the console that best capitalized their own interest. FF was originally on the nintendo but they moved to Sony. Do you know why? Because the PS cost less to develop for than the N64 and it had a bigger market share. It had nothing to do with 1st party software because that didnt effect them anyway. The N64 was more powerful than the PS1 but they moved to the PS anyway. Now the situation is reversed. If you were a developer with 1000 employees to pay for what would you do? Create for the PS3 and incur higher development costs or work on the Wii for half the cost and sell to twice the install base? Lets not forget that those people calling the shots dont give the 1st hoot about game quality or console power.

You say intall base means nothing... you cant be serious. Would you build a $10mil restaurant in a town with 500 people? Nope you will build it in a city with 100,000 people. Hell no franchise will even give you permission to build if you dont have a large enough population in the area you are proposing. Its no different for games and it is why the Neo Geo failed long ago. It was leaps and bounds supperior to all other consoles and it had very good 1st party games but it had a poor install base so no 3rd parties jumped on.



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Bodhesatva on 18 May 2007
Shane said:
Nintendo did what was best for Nintendo, as Nintendo always does. They did not take into account how it would impact third parties because they don't care. This was probably the best move for them, but it did ensure they would have trouble getting any key franchises. Install base means nothing if 60-85% of all games sold are first party... unless that install base has the penetration of the DS, and even then it's iffy.

How often are you going to say this, Shane? Seriously, you say this constantly, no matter how much evidence we show you. I gave a link to an explicit, direct link of the third party games being developed exclusively for different consoles: while the numbers were approximately even at release, the Wii now has almost twice as many exclusives titles in development as the PS3 does. Several other people have linked data (Specifically and most especially Albionus) showing that the Wii is selling more third party software than the PS3 is, and that the gap is widening, not closing.

 

So, to repeat: the Wii has more exclusive third party titles in development than the PS3 does. The Wii has sold more third party software than the PS3 has. What data or evidence can you show to support your claims? Seriously, I've never seen you link to a single post, chart, or graph. Ever. Can you please provide any hard evidence -- at all -- to support your claims?

 

Just for a refresher, since you seem to constantly forget this:  http://www.gamingtarget.com/article.php?artid=6876&pg=2&comments=

 

The Wii currently has 69 announced exclusives (either released or unreleased). This is up from 53 upon release. The Playstation currently has 40 announced exclusives. This is DOWN from 46 upon release. When the systems came out, the Wii had a marginal lead in exclusive titles. Now, the lead is much larger, and within the month (assuming the trend continues which, given the sales figures from the March NPD, is extremely likely) will have twice as many exclusive titles as the PS3. 

 Again, I personally believe that Sony can still turn this around. It's possible. And you're right, it's not as if PS3 sales are so awful that companies have literally canceled big budget projects like Final Fantasy XIII or Metal Gear Solid (if the system had, say, 500,000 in sales, that could have happened. Seroiusly). But your outright insistence that Sony's poor performance thus far hasn't had a dramatic impact on the decisions of software developers is obtuse at best, and deliberately disengenuous at worst. The factual evidence is entirely against you. 



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marc on 18 May 2007
albionus said:

@marc

An example of my advice.

@shane

A business doing what's most profitable, amazing. Of course Nintendo will still sell 60-85%(?) of games on the Wii even after it has sold 50+ million and is receiving AAA 3rd party games. The SNES and the NES were both very viable platforms for 3rd parties and they met those criterea. The N64 and GCN did not, small user base and lack of 3rd party support limited their sales. 3rd parties are going to have to make games for the Wii, they don't have a choice. the PS3 is going nowhere fast and the 360 will always have a limited user base due to MS' retarded decision to overprice the system. The 360 is not going to be able support 3rd parties alone. We'll begin to see this autumn just how many the 360 can support and the 3rd parties will begin to see just how much they are going to need the Wii.


I agree. The price of consoles is getting out of control and out of reach for the average joe who has a family and makes between $40-$60k per year most of which is gone after mortgage, taxes, transportation and other living expenses. The 360 I believe has hit the affordablity limit but like you I think it is still too high for just games and then each game is $60... that isnt cheap for John Doe. I also think that the 360 user base is not as big as MS has led us to believe. We know they have technical issues. We know that at least 10-20% of their states "console sales" are not sales but replacements to broken consoles (if it isnt more).

I dont own any current consoles so I have no biases here but I have been around long enough to know that none of the these companies are clean and none of them deserve the respect some people give them. Theyve all done something dirty to someone at some point but if my livelyhood depended on it why would I not develop for the Wii? It make perfect sense. Lower costs & huge install base. /shrug



Cipherr on 18 May 2007

Isn't this moot?

 

Third parties are shifting focus like mad to the Wii, is this really even worth discussing? Its kind of like swearing the sun doesn't exist, then turning around, looking up at the sun, then turning back around again and continuing to exclaim, "the sun doesn't exist."

 

Third parties ARE shifting focus to Wii, the Wii IS getting exclusive game announcements. The 3rd parties flat out ARE developing for the Wii, internet journalists and console warriors be damned. These same old discussions just don't matter anymore. The very thing these threads discussing that shouldn't and wont happen already IS happening.

And just because I'm annoying, to hammer home my point:


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...UG0FPT1J31.DTL
Developers push to meet demand on popular box

Ryan Kim, Chronicle Staff Writer

Friday, May 18, 2007


Since its release six months ago, the surprisingly popular Nintendo Wii has touched off a scramble in the video-game software industry as developers and publishers have rushed to cash in on the lucrative opportunities generated by the innovative console.


Electronic Arts of Redwood City has at least 10 games on tap for the Wii during the next year, including four titles exclusively developed for the console. The world's largest video-game manufacturer also bought a studio in Salt Lake City late last year to work on games just for the Wii.

Ubisoft, the top independent publisher of games for the Wii, has already released nine titles on the console and plans at least four more. THQ has plans to release 11 games for the Wii during the next year. And Disney Interactive Studios, formerly Buena Vista Games, is opening a studio in Salt Lake City to develop games for the Wii.

"We expected the Wii to be a success, but we were still a little surprised," said Yves Guillemot, chief executive of Ubisoft. "We saw what Nintendo was creating was new accessibility. With this machine, you can really open up the market to a lot more gamers."

Since its release, Nintendo has sold 2.5 million Wiis in North America, nowhere near enough to keep up with demand. The console, which retails for $250, uses motion-sensing technology to enable gamers to manipulate a controller with gestures and movements. By comparison, 1.3 million Sony PlayStation 3 units have been sold in North America, according to NPD Group, a market research firm.

Research firm IDC is forecasting that by the end of the 2008, the Wii will be the best-selling console, besting the PS3 and Microsoft Xbox 360, which got a one-year head start.

With momentum behind the Wii, many publishers are working to keep up, trying to cash in on the excitement surrounding the Nintendo system. The stakes are high for software publishers, which generated almost $5 billion in sales of console games last year in North America.

"The expectation was Nintendo would be a distant third in this generation. People were really doubting Nintendo because the GameCube didn't perform well," said Brian O'Rourke, an analyst with the industry research firm In-Stat. "But Nintendo has created a fairly inexpensive console with new technology and everyone seems to be responding."

Publishers usually hedge their bets during each console cycle by determining how many games they will release for each of the various platforms. The last time around, PlayStation 2 was the hands-down winner, with more than 100 million units sold worldwide. Taking note of that, publishers poured resources into games for the system.

This time around, the conventional wisdom in the industry was that the Xbox 360 would vie for supremacy with PlayStation 3. But about a year ago, the video-game industry began to rethink that scenario after Nintendo unveiled the Wii at the E3 video-game show in Los Angeles to wild applause.

The shift began in earnest at the start of the holiday shopping season in November, when the Wii came out and kept on selling out, becoming one of the hottest holiday gifts. Today, it is still in short supply.

Gaming publishers have responded to the increase in sales by diverting resources to Wii titles and buying up studios to produce games for the platform. It's been a learning experience for developers because the Wii is a radically different platform that feeds off body movements instead of the buttons and joysticks on a traditional controller.

Electronic Arts released just two titles when the Wii was released, including its latest installments of Madden football and Need for Speed, but followed up with an additional four games in the following months. But the company realized it wasn't enough to create Nintendo versions of popular games; it wanted to produce unique titles to exploit the Wii's strengths.

With ambitious plans to be the No. 1 game developer for the Wii, EA is throwing more money and staffing behind new Wii games, including three exclusive titles for the platform. The company also bought Headgate Studios in Salt Lake City in December to develop Wii games.

"I think it has surprised people, but we saw this as a great opportunity for the industry," said John Schappert, chief operating officer of EA. "We quickly saw that the Wii would be successful. We had those two initial titles in the can, but we realized we had to gear up for more."

Schappert said the Wii's design opens up the possibility for games that don't operate off traditional controllers. Playground, one of the latest games, allows gamers to play tetherball and dodgeball using swinging and throwing motions. This is a game that most developers wouldn't have considered trying using conventional controllers, Schappert said.

He said the Wii is especially attractive to publishers because it offers the chance to develop games for yet another platform. He said that while gamers often stuck to one console in the last cycle, he expects many gamers to buy the Wii in addition to either the Xbox 360 or the PS3.

That means a publisher could conceivably sell two versions of the same game to one gamer -- one on the Wii and one on another platform -- if the game play is unique enough for the Wii version. "That's something we've never had before," he said. "The Wii is a unique machine. It's just a very different machine."

Developers figure it will cost them a lot less to develop games for the Wii, which uses a little more processing power than the original Xbox console but less than the Xbox 360 or PlayStation 3. A typical Wii game, which is often graphically less intensive, can cost about $5 million to make, compared with $20 million or more for a top game for the Xbox 360 or PlayStation 3.

Ubisoft's Guillemot said his company quickly realized the Wii's potential when its developers worked on Red Steel, a Wii launch title that utilized sword play and first-person shooting.

Ubisoft then moved quickly to release Rayman Raving Rabbids exclusively on the Wii last year, helping it secure the top spot among third-party developers for the Wii. It's a position Guillemot said the company will fight hard to maintain.

"We know there's lot of competitors now, but we're going to try to do it," he said.
Beth Llewellyn, senior director of corporate communications at Nintendo, said the development momentum behind the Wii will only pick up as designers spend more time with the Wii and imagine new game-play scenarios.

"As with any console, the more opportunity you have to play with it, the ideas come after that," Llewellyn said. "It's the same with the DS (a handheld gaming device) and the Wii. They both have unique interfaces and it has opened up new ideas. The more they play with it, the more they realize the potential here."
Hitching to the Wii's success

-- To date the Nintendo Wii has sold 2.5 million units in North America and captured a 27 percent market share of next-generation consoles.

-- The Wii last month was the top-selling console in North America with sales of 360,000 units.

-- Electronic Arts is planning several exclusive titles for the Wii, including MySims, EA Playground, Boogie and an unnamed game developed by Steven Spielberg.

-- Disney Interactive Studios opened a studio in Salt Lake City that will work only on Wii titles.

 

http://www.vooks.net/modules.php?module=article&id=11743

News: Japanese Developers Shifting Focus To Wii?

The Wii could be getting more support from Japanese developers according to Kyoshi Skin, who works for the International Game Developers Association in Japan. He told the LA Times that many game creators in Japan are moving their focus to the Wii. With the success of the DS and the Wii so far, could Japanese developers be trying to get ahead of the pack? While it’s great to see more support from Japan most of these games, none of which were specified, likely won’t be released until 2008 or 2009.


Source: gamesindustry.biz

One article about the American developers starting to shift and show the Wii some development love and another for the Japanese developers. Doesn't matter what we think. The developers and more importantly the PUBLISHERS are choosing to support the console period. You can number crunch and analyze sales charts days and night and it wont matter if they are happy with their sales on the Wii. It seems they know something we don't.



Shane on 18 May 2007

The only reason this was in Nintendo's best interest is because they figured third parties wouldn't support them anyway, so they may as well cash in on the cheap hardware and first party software benefits of dumbing down the system. Whether it is actually the right move now is debateable.

I agree 360 won't be able to support third parties alone. There's also PS3.

Nintendo has a history of forcing third parties to conform to its will dating back to the NES, often harming them in the process.

Despite Nintendo's more than 2:1 lead, third party games still sell better on PS3. Wii does currently have more games due to continued focus on PS2, but they're games that will sell worse, something the publishers are expecting.

I keep repeating myself because it's true, but people can't get it through their heads because they actually believe a) third party games will sell on Wii and b) Wii will miraculously receive the next Final Fantasy exclusively. In Japan, 82.5% of all Wii games sold since the system launched have been published by Nintendo, and as I posted in another thread, the average third party Wii sales are 35% lower than the average third party PS3 sales, despite the race currently being a blowout in Wii's favor. The US isn't quite that bad, but as the article we're discussing right now shows, it's still heavily dominated by Nintendo. Furthermore, while Microsoft and Sony retain major titles (both exclusive and non-exclusive) like FF, MGS, GTA, and Gears of War, in addition to expanding their first and second party efforts (largely at Nintendo's expense), there has not been a single announcement for Wii that's really worth talking about unless it's been made from Nintendo. Playground? Rygar? Cooking Mama? Spinoff du jour (because the original isn't technologically possible)? Wake me when it's over. Nintendo will continue to create top quality software internally, but anyone expecting third parties to make a concentrated effort on anything but milking Wii while they can and to the extent that they can is going to end up disappointed.

Want to show me how I'm supposedly wrong? I'd be real interested in something indicating it. Aside from a couple decent sellers, there's been little indication that third party games will sell on Wii at any point, even if it were to retain its current lead over the PS3.



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ssj12 on 18 May 2007

guess what theres a rumor that bungie is being bought about by Nintendo. halo 3 will be on the Wii.. now wouldnt the world be pissed if this happened lol.



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HappySqurriel on 18 May 2007

Currently, the market is like this:

Nintendo is a Whale in the ocean
Sony and Microsoft are Koi fish in a small pond

For a third party developer there is far less competition from Sony or Microsoft in their small pond but there is also far less 'food'. Certainly, competing against Nintendo is not easy but (soon enough) the only way to get the quantity of food you want will be to enter Nintendo's ocean; the benefit for third party developers in Nintendo's ocean is that the Whale is spending a lot of time in uncharted water only comming back through known teritory to pick up large schools of fish that have always been in the same spot.



Bodhesatva on 18 May 2007

The obvious problem with your logic, Shane, is that the best titles currently available for the Wii are all made by Nintendo (metacritic gives Zelda, Super Paper Mario and Wario Ware the best ratings of any games on the system, and Wii Sports obviously comes with the console), while the best games made for the PS3 are not made by Sony (the highest rated titles are MotorStorm and Resistance). Not surprisingly, this creates a disparity. 

 

Historically, 3rd party games with critical acclaim have sold well on Nintendo consoles, plain and simple. This even includes the Gamecube: the three highest rated 3rd party titles, Rogue Squadron, Rogue Squadron II, and Resident Evil 4 all sold quite well.  

So the problem isn't that Nintendo system owners only buy games made by Nintendo -- the problem is that they tend to buy games that are better. Right now, that happens to heavily favor the games made by Nintendo. Since the games actually developed by Sony recieved mediocre reviews at best, this tends to currently favor third parties for their system. 

 



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omgwtfbbq on 19 May 2007

of course third parties have suffered, they put their big games on the PS3 and are surprised that they're not selling. And somehow this is Nintendo's fault? Ubisoft put their money on the Wii and they're going fine. It's those third parties who are releasing their big guns on the PS3 that are struggling. Where are the "Sony is bad for developers" thread?



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n00b on 19 May 2007
Darkness said:
Why do you hope those companies suffer? I view it as them keeping some integrity. They could dumb the game down so that it'll run on the Wii and collect money from a bunch of suckers who buy it. Instead they're gonna keep it on the systems that can properly showcase their art.
It's like this...they WILL NOT have to dumb the game down on the Wii. All of the gameplay can stay intact. Just look at CoD 3. Ended up on all three systems and they were virtually identical except for the graphics.

CoD3, huh?

Gamespot:

CoD3 Xbox 360: 8.8

CoD3 Wii: 7.2

IGN:

CoD3 Xbox 360: 8.8

CoD3 Wii: 7.7

 

Wii owners need to get used to this. The Xbox 360 isn't going to lose any good games to the Wii, and when the Wii does manage to get versions of big 3rd party games, they're going to get majorly dumbed down versions. Even the PS2 and Xbox versions scored higher.