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Forums - Sony - "Naughty Dog's greed is out of control"

pokoko on 03 September 2015
starcraft said:
People that argue that this only happens because people are happy to pay micro transactions, and that they don't mind because they don't are only semi-grasping the point.

Think back to Goldeneye 64. Think of all the skins you could access, all the guns you could use. Then think about the skins, guns and perks you could obtain through in-game cheats.

Now imagine that half of all of them could only be obtained by paying extra for the game on top of your $60 for the title, and your $60 for PS+ for the year.

THATS what is happening here. Things are being withheld from the game so that they can be sold later. You don't buy them? Fine. While you're busy laughing at those that do, you're missing the fact that you'd have more content if gamers were unwilling to put up with this.

This is FAR from a Naughty Dog specific problem, but they have gotten an absolute free-pass because their single player remains epic, and their multiplayer forgettable.

All well and good except it's not completely true.

I mean, you're making it sound like you get nothing at all with the base game, then you make it sound like they would have made all that extra content for free.  The first is untrue, the second is unlikely.

Borderlands 2, for example.  It introduced wide-scale DLC for skins and heads that was absent from the first one.  So that means it had nothing that you could unlock through game-play?  Not quite.

Unlockable Skins (Main Game)

All-Seeing Eye
Rare drop fromThreshers

Angled Mosquito
Rare drop from Saturn

Azure Wave
Rare drop from Son of Mothrakk

Bandit Blood and Rust
Item of the Day

Bandit Incineration
Rank 5 Knee-Deep in Brass challenge

Bandit War Paint
Rank 3Marauder? I Hardly Know 'Er challenge

Bittersweet Ninja
Rare drop from King Mong

Black Widow
Random drop from "Chubby" mobs

Blue Widow
Rank 3Longshotchallenge

Cardinal Sin
Rank 3EXPLOOOOOSIONS!challenge

Clean Slate
Rank 3 Not Full of Monkeys challenge

Crimson Fastness
Rank 3Rocket and Rollchallenge

Cyan Dreams
Mission reward fromThe Overlooked: Medicine Man

Dahl Efficiency
Unknown

Dahl Elite
Item of the Day

Dahl Predator
Rank 5 Crouching Tiger, Hidden Assault Rifle challenge

Dark Focus
Rare drop from any of the4 Hyperion Assassins

Dark Scarlet
Rank 5 Hail of Bulletschallenge

Deep Blue She
Rank 3 Open Pandora's Boxes challenge

Ecstasy in Gold
Rank 3 Shotgun! challenge

Elven Glamour
Rank 3Aggravated Assaultchallenge

Empress
Unknown

Gecko
Rank 3 Super Novaschallenge

Greenblood
Rank 4 inWhaddaya Buyin'?challenge

Gunmetal Blue
Rank 3 Fisticuffs!challenge

Hyperion Heroism
Rank 3 Load and Lockchallenge

Hyperion Honor
Item of the Day

Hyperion Hornet
Rank 5 Evisceratedchallenge

Indigo Lady
Mission reward from To Grandmother's House We Go

Jakobs Family
Mission reward fromCapture the Flags

Jakobs Filigree
Rank 5 Quickdrawchallenge

Jakobs Old-Fashioned
Item of the Day

Light Urple
Rank 5Badass Bingochallenge

Lilac Combatant
Rare drop fromTerramorphous the Invincible

Loud and Proud
Mission reward from No Vacancy

Maliwan Elegance
Rank 3 Slag-Lickedchallenge

Maliwan Grace
Rank 5 I Just Want to Set the World on Firechallenge

Maliwan Style
Item of the Day

Mellow Yellow
Mission reward fromShielded Favors

Minecraft
Common drop fromCreepers

Ninja Rose
Rare drop fromVermivorous the Invincible

Nothing Rhymes with Orange
Rank 3 Pull the Pinchallenge

Orange You Glad...
Rank 3 The Killerchallenge

Pink Pandoracorn
Rank 5 Nothing Rhymes with Orange orJEEEEENKINSSSSSS!!!challenge

Preying Mantis
Rank 3 It's Not Easy Looting Greenchallenge

Ruby Wings
Random drop fromSpiderants

Starry
Rare drop from Stalkers

Supergreen
Mission reward fromThe Cold Shoulder

Tangerine Dreaming
Rank 3 For the Hoard!challenge

Tediore Customer Service
777 on Slot machines

Tediore Low Price
Item of the Day

Tediore Value
Rank 5 Boomerbangchallenge

Torgue Explosiveness
Rank 3 Boom challenge

Torgue High Octane
Item of the Day

Torgue Speed Demon
Rank 5 Catch-a-Rocket!challenge

To the Rescue
Rare drop from Dukino's Mom

Vault Burst
Rare drop from Captain Flynt

Vault Dweller
Rank 5 This is No Time for Lazy! challenge

Violent Violet
Random drop from any enemy

Vladof Freedom
Rank 5Ammo Eaterchallenge

Vladof Revolution
Item of the Day

Vladof Sickle
777 on Slot machines

White Gold
Rank 3 Blue Sparkschallenge

It feels to me like you're building a semi-false argument.  There may very well be cases of what you're talking about but there are also many case where that is probably not true.



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LudicrousSpeed on 04 September 2015
Faelco said:
LudicrousSpeed said:
I never played Uncharted 3 MP except for the beta IIRC. Last of Us though, I played tons of on PS3 and it was the first PS4 game I played. I initially enjoyed the PS4 MP as much as I did the PS3, but it quickly unraveled. Due to the DLC.

The main issue with the DLC in LoU is it's too good. There are too many weapons that are top of the line or flat out overpowered. There are a lot of perks that are REALLY good. Sure, some of these weapons and perks you can access for free in premade classes, but you cannot customize them. You don't get near the advantage someone who actually bought the content gets.

Bomb Expert 3 allows you to literally throw a smoke bomb at your feet and you get no disadvantage. There is a perk that can give you different perks at a fraction of the cost those perks would normally take. The crossbow and combat shotgun are basically free kills.

Because these things are so good, it's actually shifted the dynamics of the MP from a slow paced, tactical shooter with incredibly unique gameplay, to a generic run n gun third person shooter. You don't really need to scavenge as much for parts and ammo if your crossbow kills 90% of people too dumb to hoard health packs. You don't need to take the time to build a well balanced loadout if your super perk gives you access to a chunk of abilities. You don't have to sneak in for a silent execution of a downed opponent if you have a super quick execution perk purchased and equipped. It's garbage.

I don't blame ND though, I blame Sony. They pressured Zipper to make SOCOM 4 a CoD clone and then shut them down when the game was garbage. They rushed out Twisted Metal knowing the online was a broken mess. They infest ND games with ridiculous amounts of microtransaction DLC for a $60 game, especially concerning because a lot of it is pay2win bullshit.

It's sad to see you get "ND Points" for preordering Uncharted 4. Thanks for confirming to me that I need only rent the title, ND.


Are you sure we play the same TLOU MP game? Really? 

 

I use sometimes the Bomb expert 3 skill. Yes, it's good. Yes, it allows me to escape certain death or to get a kill with a smoke bomb, especially when I'm 1v1. Yes, I like it. But it cost a lot to equip, like all level 3 skills. My Bomb expert 3 build has one weapon and 2 skills only, so no, it's not overpowered. I like other builds with more skills too, and they're just as powerful. It's about taste. 

 

Same thing about the shotgun and the crossbow. The crossbow is even a bonus weapon, and you have to buy it on the map, no? (and it's not cheap at all IIRC) I'm a lot more afraid of a good sniper rifle than a crossbow. You can be OS by a sniper (and I mean dead, not on the ground). If I'm shot by a crossbow (when the guy can finally buy it), I heal myself to stop the bleeding (or I'm healed by a teammate) and I go kill the guy at short range after that, where crossbows are less useful. Easy enough. And I don't play against a lot of good players with crossbows, so it's even easier. It can be a pain, sure, but really not more than other players. Like I said, I bought the crossbow and used it a few times. Not good enough compared to my bow and its price. 

 

The guys with shotguns usually do believe they're in CoD and run to shot us like idiots. They're always the first to die if you're at least a bit aware of what's happening (the guy is running at you? 2 arrows in the chest or 1 in the head and he's dead...). Generic run and gun TPS? lol. The guys playing like that ragequit a lot before the third round when they don't understand why they died twice without seeing what happened and without any support. One of my teammate did exactly this 2 hours ago, the last time I played. He died everytime 1v3 or 1v4, alone 20 meters ahead of us, and ragequit after a few useless deaths like that. Sometimes I feel like the 200-weeks or more players gave their controller to their 12 years old CoD-loving little brother... 

 

The deadliest and more terrifying players are still the good stealth players, with the bow or other silent weapons (even the knife!), killing your teammates one by one without being seen and without a noise. Even 1v4, you can win with skill and care. The crossbow or the shotgun won't help you do that more than other weapons.

 

I don't know about the competitive level, but for the public games, you're exaggerating a lot. At least at this level, for the majority of gamers, it's not pay2win, it's more learn2play.


No, we dont play the same LoU MP because i dont play LoU MP anymore. DLC ruined it.

I know it takes points to don Bomb 3, as all level 3 perks do. Its unbalanced and is too strong. You dont need a lot of weapons or other perks when you have free shiv kills. The rest of your post is your basic "get gud" message people post on message boards. 



starcraft on 04 September 2015
pokoko said:
starcraft said:
People that argue that this only happens because people are happy to pay micro transactions, and that they don't mind because they don't are only semi-grasping the point.

Think back to Goldeneye 64. Think of all the skins you could access, all the guns you could use. Then think about the skins, guns and perks you could obtain through in-game cheats.

Now imagine that half of all of them could only be obtained by paying extra for the game on top of your $60 for the title, and your $60 for PS+ for the year.

THATS what is happening here. Things are being withheld from the game so that they can be sold later. You don't buy them? Fine. While you're busy laughing at those that do, you're missing the fact that you'd have more content if gamers were unwilling to put up with this.

This is FAR from a Naughty Dog specific problem, but they have gotten an absolute free-pass because their single player remains epic, and their multiplayer forgettable.

All well and good except it's not completely true.

I mean, you're making it sound like you get nothing at all with the base game, then you make it sound like they would have made all that extra content for free.  The first is untrue, the second is unlikely.

Borderlands 2, for example.  It introduced wide-scale DLC for skins and heads that was absent from the first one.  So that means it had nothing that you could unlock through game-play?  Not quite.

*snip*

It feels to me like you're building a semi-false argument.  There may very well be cases of what you're talking about but there are also many case where that is probably not true.

Can what I said be proven to be true for each individual game? No.

But I don't think that undermines the main premise to any great extent.

I don't feel like I implied you get nothing with the base game. That wasn't my intent, and if thats how it came off I apologize.

We certainly see instances where extra content is explicitely produced for later sale, that otherwise wouldn't have been included in the main game (see The Witcher 3). This is not new, expansions, sequels and spiritual successors have existed for years. Is it possible that if microtransactions ceased to be, Naughty Dog would produce less content for the game? Yes. But if games did not have microtransactions, they would still be required to compete with one another for your $60. To suggest that all that extra content would be culled (when, as in the Goldeneye instance I mentioned, extensive multiplayer skin and weapon options have existed for eons) is unlikely. To do so on any consistent basis would be commercial suicide. In other words, people would still be required to make good games if they want those games to sell.



starcraft - Playing Games = FUN, Talking about Games = SERIOUS

JOKA_ on 04 September 2015

I always wondered why Naughty Dog got a pass on this. There are a ridiculous number of TLOU microtransactions.

In general I'm not opposed to microtransactions, I just find it interesting that...I think it was Gears of War....was selling weapon skins for $0.99 and they got ripped apart, while ND gets to walk.

 

EDIT: And from what little research Ive done it seems that some of those TLOU skill/weapon packs could actually give people an advantage? (I used to play the crap out of TLOU MP, wonder if this has affected it at all)



Platinums: Red Dead Redemption, Killzone 2, LittleBigPlanet, Terminator Salvation, Uncharted 1, inFamous Second Son, Rocket League

Faelco on 04 September 2015
LudicrousSpeed said:
Faelco said:


Are you sure we play the same TLOU MP game? Really? 

 

I use sometimes the Bomb expert 3 skill. Yes, it's good. Yes, it allows me to escape certain death or to get a kill with a smoke bomb, especially when I'm 1v1. Yes, I like it. But it cost a lot to equip, like all level 3 skills. My Bomb expert 3 build has one weapon and 2 skills only, so no, it's not overpowered. I like other builds with more skills too, and they're just as powerful. It's about taste. 

 

Same thing about the shotgun and the crossbow. The crossbow is even a bonus weapon, and you have to buy it on the map, no? (and it's not cheap at all IIRC) I'm a lot more afraid of a good sniper rifle than a crossbow. You can be OS by a sniper (and I mean dead, not on the ground). If I'm shot by a crossbow (when the guy can finally buy it), I heal myself to stop the bleeding (or I'm healed by a teammate) and I go kill the guy at short range after that, where crossbows are less useful. Easy enough. And I don't play against a lot of good players with crossbows, so it's even easier. It can be a pain, sure, but really not more than other players. Like I said, I bought the crossbow and used it a few times. Not good enough compared to my bow and its price. 

 

The guys with shotguns usually do believe they're in CoD and run to shot us like idiots. They're always the first to die if you're at least a bit aware of what's happening (the guy is running at you? 2 arrows in the chest or 1 in the head and he's dead...). Generic run and gun TPS? lol. The guys playing like that ragequit a lot before the third round when they don't understand why they died twice without seeing what happened and without any support. One of my teammate did exactly this 2 hours ago, the last time I played. He died everytime 1v3 or 1v4, alone 20 meters ahead of us, and ragequit after a few useless deaths like that. Sometimes I feel like the 200-weeks or more players gave their controller to their 12 years old CoD-loving little brother... 

 

The deadliest and more terrifying players are still the good stealth players, with the bow or other silent weapons (even the knife!), killing your teammates one by one without being seen and without a noise. Even 1v4, you can win with skill and care. The crossbow or the shotgun won't help you do that more than other weapons.

 

I don't know about the competitive level, but for the public games, you're exaggerating a lot. At least at this level, for the majority of gamers, it's not pay2win, it's more learn2play.


No, we dont play the same LoU MP because i dont play LoU MP anymore. DLC ruined it.

I know it takes points to don Bomb 3, as all level 3 perks do. Its unbalanced and is too strong. You dont need a lot of weapons or other perks when you have free shiv kills. The rest of your post is your basic "get gud" message people post on message boards. 


Yes, maybe for a few weeks after the DLCs the game was messy because a lot of people tried the new skills and weapons. It's not the case anymore after a few weeks. You can have fun with your new paying toy for a while, but when you continously die because that cool toy comes with 5 bullets only and you find yourself unarmed in every fight after the first one, you come back to more useful weapons. It's what I did with the paying DLC gun, great but points-expensive and with too few bullets, so not useful enough (or even more expensive if you have to buy bullets for every fight or buy a skill to have more bullets). 

 

I don't say only "get gud", I say "don't exaggerate/rage and try". I was really angry the first time I died because of the blood loss of a crossbow, and complained about this pay2win weapon. The second time too. And then I tried it, I saw that it was not unbalanced at all and had drawbacks. And I got used to fight against it and I don't consider it better than another weapon anymore, it just ask for another approach, like anything in the game. I'm not killed by the weapon but by the player, and when I died, the guy usually could have killed me with any weapon in the game, it's useless to complain about his crossbow. 

 

There isn't a lot of paying weapons on the field anymore IMO. Even level 500 or 900-something players don't use it more than other weapons. There is a reason to it. You can like a DLC weapon and have fun with it. You can be dominated by a good player with a DLC weapon. But you won't see a bad player getting good just by buying a DLC weapon. You won't see a guy dominating a game only because of his new DLC weapon or skill. The skilled free players still own the paying bad players, without a sweat. These skills and weapons give you other possibilities but not more advantage than other skills or weapons. That's why I'm saying it's not pay2win.



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Kane1389 on 04 September 2015
Samus Aran said:
It's ok when Naughty Dog does it. UC4 will still get 95%+ on metacritic even though every other developer would get slammed for this.

What score would Super Mario Maker have gotten if it had micro-transactions to purchase additional enemies, power-ups, etc.?


Super Mario Maker is a competitive shooter game?



Azzanation on 04 September 2015

Micro transactions never bothered me, I am the sucker who pays $20 AUS for mounts in World of Warcraft, however it amazes me how people turn a blind eye to it since MTs were one of the things that gamers showed they hated, but slap Naughty Dog on it and its not a problem to anybody. To me, most micro transaction games are the same unless your playing a Mobile game that requires you to pay to win etc. It doesn't effect me if a game wants to offer special items and skins as long as it doesn't effect my solo campaign runs and doesn't offer a huge advantage to the other teams in multiplayer.



Lawlight on 04 September 2015

I never spend any money on microtransactions. I will buy DLC though if I like a game - after I finish it though.



Lawlight on 04 September 2015
starcraft said:
People that argue that this only happens because people are happy to pay micro transactions, and that they don't mind because they don't are only semi-grasping the point.

Think back to Goldeneye 64. Think of all the skins you could access, all the guns you could use. Then think about the skins, guns and perks you could obtain through in-game cheats.

Now imagine that half of all of them could only be obtained by paying extra for the game on top of your $60 for the title, and your $60 for PS+ for the year.

THATS what is happening here. Things are being withheld from the game so that they can be sold later. You don't buy them? Fine. While you're busy laughing at those that do, you're missing the fact that you'd have more content if gamers were unwilling to put up with this.

This is FAR from a Naughty Dog specific problem, but they have gotten an absolute free-pass because their single player remains epic, and their multiplayer forgettable.


Uncharted or TLOU's MP are forgettable? I think the only reason people don't talk about them is because their SP is so good. They're definitely better than the vast majority of games with MP.



Roberto10 on 04 September 2015

I dont see a reason why a game should be bashed for it's microtransactions. The games ND makes are amazing and they release at normal retail price. I played tlou multiplayer quite a lot and I faired quite well without giving a cent via microtransactions. The pay2win argument is complete bs because the weapons you buy arent better than the ones you unlock for free. I also have no probleb with the cosmetic upgrades. If someone plays like 100+ hours on multiplayer they might want to spend 1$ to make their player look "cooler".
Having a lot of available microtransactions is like going to a store, if I see 100 shoes on display doesn't mean I have to buy them all, I just have a larger collection from which i can choose.
As for the UC3 multiplayer, I havent played it a lot so I dont have an opinion.
Just play the games and enjoy them noone is forcing you to buy anything and stop blaming "microtransactions" for your lack of skill in multiplayer. Chances are that the guy who has the outfit has been playing a lot more hours than you and is just better at it.