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Forums - Gaming - Greek economy

routsounmanman on 30 June 2015
walsufnir said:
routsounmanman said:
walsufnir said:
 


You don't want to tell me that the situation is equivalent? Greece didn't have a war and now needs to rebuild. And Greece will never be an industry nation as Germany. The whole country is totally different, relying a lot on tourism, for example.

There is a huge problem with the Greece mentality. Well, not problem... But they are different like every other country in EU is different. You have a lot of problems to solve which wouldn't be there if Greece hadn't got the Euro. Well, the other states at least wouldn't have the problem, perhaps Greece would still have trouble with Drachme but this wouldn't have a big impact like it now does.

By now I don't see what the current Greece government is trying to make better the next years, I don't even see that they have done anything when they started. You can't expect money on promises.

Also Greece government representatives don't behave like people who want money in any way, infact they are even arrogant and always blame others to be at fault while not saying with a single word that the problems Greece has are completely housemade and now they want others to help them, again.

Cherry picking at its finest. Who started the war? Who destroyed an entire continent? Meanwhile Greece lied about some numbers (although I'll never believe that the EU had no idea about it, they just liked the idea of a rich Greece buying EU products) and is getting demolished economically while everyone's against us, blaming us for everything wrong in the continent, while using us as shields from the markets.

And, while I agree we're the first ones to blame for this situation (for starters, we should have never adopted the Euro), we're certainly not the only problem of the EU. If Greece, wasn't in the eye of the storm, Portugal would be. And you can bet that it will be, as soon as we go down.


Oh please, the victim card... Yeah, sure.

But I agree, the Euro was bad for Greece and now all others have to pay for it. In fact, if you ask Germans, we didn't want the Euro either. Deutsche Mark was a very strong currency and one of the main factors for the Euro to begin with.

But now we have it, Greece is done with, no matter how much money we will give them. Cut the debts, let them begin from anew and that's it. If this leads to the destruction of the Euro as a currency in a whole, ok. Germans will easily get back to a strong national currency.

I really like the idea of Europe as a whole, really. But the EU is something we don't need for this and the Euro is also unnecessary, in my opinion. Open borders? Sure. Vacancy in other european countries? Sure! I enjoyed Kreta last year a lot! But please no orchestration from "above".

The problem is, Germany has gained immensely from the Euro. Go back to the Mark, and your exports will get prohibitely expensive for most countries (basically the absolute inverse problem for us going back to the Drachma).

We agree completely on the final paragraph. I want no more wars in the continent. Free trade. Open borders. But no sovereigncy. Country interests > EU interests all the time.

PS: I have nothing against the German people or you. I actually think you're the powerhouse of Europe right now, and are actually doing good for the continent the past 30 years. The fact is though, Greece can bleed no more.



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walsufnir on 30 June 2015
routsounmanman said:
walsufnir said:
routsounmanman said:

Cherry picking at its finest. Who started the war? Who destroyed an entire continent? Meanwhile Greece lied about some numbers (although I'll never believe that the EU had no idea about it, they just liked the idea of a rich Greece buying EU products) and is getting demolished economically while everyone's against us, blaming us for everything wrong in the continent, while using us as shields from the markets.

And, while I agree we're the first ones to blame for this situation (for starters, we should have never adopted the Euro), we're certainly not the only problem of the EU. If Greece, wasn't in the eye of the storm, Portugal would be. And you can bet that it will be, as soon as we go down.


Oh please, the victim card... Yeah, sure.

But I agree, the Euro was bad for Greece and now all others have to pay for it. In fact, if you ask Germans, we didn't want the Euro either. Deutsche Mark was a very strong currency and one of the main factors for the Euro to begin with.

But now we have it, Greece is done with, no matter how much money we will give them. Cut the debts, let them begin from anew and that's it. If this leads to the destruction of the Euro as a currency in a whole, ok. Germans will easily get back to a strong national currency.

I really like the idea of Europe as a whole, really. But the EU is something we don't need for this and the Euro is also unnecessary, in my opinion. Open borders? Sure. Vacancy in other european countries? Sure! I enjoyed Kreta last year a lot! But please no orchestration from "above".

The problem is, Germany has gained immensely from the Euro. Go back to the Mark, and your exports will get prohibitely expensive for most countries (basically the absolute inverse problem for us going back to the Drachma).

We agree completely on the final paragraph. I want no more wars in the continent. Free trade. Open borders. But no sovereigncy. Country interests > EU interests all the time.

PS: I have nothing against the German people or you. I actually think you're the powerhouse of Europe right now, and are actually doing good for the continent the past 30 years. The fact is though, Greece can bleed no more.


Oh, I have really nothing against Greece, really. As I said before, common people are not responsible for what is happening now but they are the ones who have to pay for it, Greece and German people. Not the people who are really responsible for this.

And I really have to blame the media here, in Germany and in Greece. They are making the problems even worse by generalizing how Greece and/or German people are while I guess we all can agree that we are not responsible for the current situation. I feel really sorry when I read about signs with "GerMoney" in Greece and I don't like the idea that Greece people hate Germans and otherwise. There is no need for that, really.



GamechaserBE on 30 June 2015

the Eu or Euro is not the problem, the problem started when we found out that the corrupt goverment of Greece was lying. Germany is doing well because they used strict rules to improve the economy and make its unemployment one of the lowest in Europe. Even countries that are doing fine like The Netherlands/Belgium/Sweden/UK took stronger measures than Greece did.

The last election in Greece they promised the people stuff that simple are not helping Greece economy. if you have 15.000 workers that worked for the state but were not really needed then it is normal to let them go but now they promised in the election they get their job back and promised even stuff as free electricity....ofcourse people will vote for you but how does it help Greece? Spain/Portugal/ireland were in trouble aswell but Ireland climbed out of it and Spain/Portugal are getting better. In Spain we see an expected Economic growth of +3% one of the highest in europe and we saw a decline of 500.000 in the unemployment numbers...Sure it is still high but atleast the goverment created work and a future that has a high potential to be good for its citizens.



Ruler on 30 June 2015
palou said:

The production value of greece's indutry, is sadly currently very low. Similarily to Cuba, Greece has a few speciality products to export, and otherwise relies on tourism and a weakish tertiary sector. Cuba's productivity is nothing to be proud of.

In the case of default, the new government would have great difficulty obtaining new loans, and would have a meager revenue, thus making it impossible to promote the creation of new sectors, as would be necessary.

Equally, banks will run out of liquidities, following the usual mistrust of new currencies, making it more difficult for new entrepreneurs to find financement.

Even tourism could be temporarily hurt by the instability.

In such a situation, forcibly weekening the drachme would just create hyperinflation, further reducing buying power of the populace.

I do not see how greece could fare off much better than, let's say, mexico, after defaulting.

thoughts.

Cuba is one of the richest latin american countries, its gdp per capita in ppp is higher than mexico



generic-user-1 on 30 June 2015

they should legalise a green herb that makes people happy and cut all taxes on beer, that would lead to a tourism boom. ohh and taxe the church.



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Ruler on 30 June 2015
walsufnir said:
hentai_11 said:
walsufnir said:
mai said:

So what about Italy, Spain, Portugal, France, Denmark or Ireland? Were they "worthy"?


That's a good question but I am not to judge and I am not the person who had the data to judge it. And I am not the person who made up the criteria. Thing is, the whole Euro topic is something that shows how democracy works (at least in Germany): Every 4 years you are allowed to elect people who dictate you what will happen.

There is a former German politician who said that is unfair to judge a government after election by their pre-election promises... this tells you what attitude they have towards the people they want them to vote.

Germany got the Euro because the government wanted it. No matter which party. Why weren't we able to vote for it? Because they knew we wouldn't want it. UK is a perfect example of this. It is absolutely ridiculous how we think that the world should function (see arabic spring) but democracy is only good for them if the common people do exactly what they want.

Do you remember when Ireland was to join EU? How many times did they do an election? "Let's vote until we get what we want".

The EU had criterias which had to be met to get the Euro. However the greek politicians cheated and faked their numbers to get the Euro. Here is a german link. (too lazy to search for an english one ...)

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/statistik-skandal-griechen-schummelten-sich-in-waehrungsunion-1.918589


Yes but nobody talks about this anymore strangely. The public discussion is concentrating on various points but we should concentrate on "cause and effect". Even if Greece would get money again this time, what are they going to change so this is the last time they get money from other countries?

The Greece government lied and because of this, I as a German have to pay for it. And many others, too. This can't be right.

No we have to pay for Merkels stupid decisions, she was the one who believes in austerity while acting completley different when the crisis hit germany itself in 2007. Like giving money for getting rid of used cars etc. instead of budget cuts.

She demanded reforms but the wrong ones. Instead taxing the rich or cutting the military budget she demanded social cuts demilishing the purchasing power and economy in greece.

And third she gave greece from the beginning to the IMF which servers more american interests. Instead making it from the beginning a european only settlement. By the way this what the deal is all about, switching greece debts from imf to EU so they have to pay less interests which should have happened in the first place.

Also she acts now differently because its a far leftwing goverment in greece, italy and portugal arent in a better situation or france. But because its a left wing goverment in greece and is connected to our leftwing party she goes completley hardcore with them now all of the sudden. This women is a despicable anti communist control freak. Thats what is happening right now



generic-user-1 on 30 June 2015
Ruler said:
walsufnir said:


Yes but nobody talks about this anymore strangely. The public discussion is concentrating on various points but we should concentrate on "cause and effect". Even if Greece would get money again this time, what are they going to change so this is the last time they get money from other countries?

The Greece government lied and because of this, I as a German have to pay for it. And many others, too. This can't be right.

No we have to pay for Merkels stupid decisions, she was the one who believes in austerity while acting completley different when the crisis hit germany itself in 2007. Like giving money for getting rid of used cars etc.

She demanded reforms but the wrong ones. Instead taxing the rich or cutting the military budget she demanded social cuts demilishing the purchasing power and economy in greece.

And third she gave greece from the beginning to the IMF which servers more american interests.

Also shes acts now differently because its a leftwing goverment now, italy and portugal arent in a better situation or france. But because its a left wing goverment in greece and is connected to our leftwing party she goes complketley hardcore. Shes a despicable anti communist control freak.


merkel never decides on anything. she waits till the media and other politicians are on one side and takes that side than.

and she doesnt believes in austerity, she believes in nothing.

other people demanded reforms, the right wing media picked that demand up and  after that merkel was a little bit for the reforms.

 

and she is not anti communistic, she cant be, all she got is based on her kader education in the DDR. 

she is the perfect counterpart to putin, putin was a more military orientated agent in the udssr and merkel was a spy with a propaganda as main workingfield.  she has learned to bet on the right horse in her time as agent, and the right horse isnt support for a non neoliberal government.  the german economist are mostly total retards that worship a econmic school that cant work and that they cant understand, the right wing media would have to search for an econimist to bash anything not neoliberal from her.



palou on 30 June 2015
walsufnir said:
Alkibiádēs said:
walsufnir said:


But do they? After what we know now about Greece and Euro, this point just can't be completely true. What "knowledge" do these people have? Our person in charge for defense, Ursula von der Leyen, was responsible for family ministry. She is totally exchangable. And she is only one example.

But to the other point: I don't want votes for every single fart out there, definitely not. But changing a currency is something so big that you have to let the common people vote for or against. The people in charge didn't evidently not have enough expertise and knowledge for the Euro.

I doubt today's economy would be better without the Euro, maybe for some countries.

And it's YOUR job to vote on the people (or in this case: party) who you think have such expertise or skill.

Indirect democracy is far from perfect, but tell me when you have found something better. As for the EU, yeah, it needs to be better organized...


You can doubt what you want but we don't know what the economy would be without the introduction of Euro. But did it harm UK not getting a new currency?

I don't have many options to vote. What if I doubt any of these guys have skill or expertise? Especially considering that most posts get assigned *after* election. "Cool, the guy I wanted to be in charge for defense now is responsible for environment". So you don't vote for the best but for the best available which is not necessarily the best.

In my opinion the suisse model is quite good. They have direct democracy in certain points and this also makes people feel democracy way better. Even better, people read about a topic and can make up their own opinion about it, rather than letting people from the government decide alone and totally ignoring what the common people want.

Example: government people earn money (of course). Every now and then there salary raises. The question if the salary should raise is answered by the people who get the salary! This is like people at work getting the question "do you want to have more money? Let's say 10%?" Who would answer no? Thing is, *we* pay them. They should ask *us* if they should get more money. But this doesn't happen, they decide on their own. What I want to say: There are many little things that make people frustrated about the government so that the voter participation goes down and down after each election and still the people "in charge" don't see anything wrong in what they are doing.

We have to get to the point where these people understand themselves as representatives of the common people.


Although this very likely does not have much to do with the currency, the UK's economy isn't exactly rosy either. Not in a crisis state, but severe stagnation, since quite some time.

Otherwise: I would argue that pre-crisis Greece shows the biggest flaw of giving power to the people. People are shortsighted, and selfish. Everyone wants to pay less taxes and get more services. And if the government fills all the wishes, well, you get what is happening now. A country needs someone at the top who can say no to its citizens.



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palou on 30 June 2015
Ruler said:
palou said:

The production value of greece's indutry, is sadly currently very low. Similarily to Cuba, Greece has a few speciality products to export, and otherwise relies on tourism and a weakish tertiary sector. Cuba's productivity is nothing to be proud of.

In the case of default, the new government would have great difficulty obtaining new loans, and would have a meager revenue, thus making it impossible to promote the creation of new sectors, as would be necessary.

Equally, banks will run out of liquidities, following the usual mistrust of new currencies, making it more difficult for new entrepreneurs to find financement.

Even tourism could be temporarily hurt by the instability.

In such a situation, forcibly weekening the drachme would just create hyperinflation, further reducing buying power of the populace.

I do not see how greece could fare off much better than, let's say, mexico, after defaulting.

thoughts.

Cuba is one of the richest latin american countries, its gdp per capita in ppp is higher than mexico

Yeah, I chose Mexico because A) Its economy is better (poorer, but more industry) and B) because Cuba has a very peculiar system, the ppp data being somewhat questionable, as the variety of products available is quite low (example: only cars they can get are 40 year old americans.)



Bet with PeH: 

I win if Arms sells over 700 000 units worldwide by the end of 2017.

Bet with WagnerPaiva:

 

I win if Emmanuel Macron wins the french presidential election May 7th 2017.

Ruler on 30 June 2015
palou said:
Ruler said:

Cuba is one of the richest latin american countries, its gdp per capita in ppp is higher than mexico

Yeah, I chose Mexico because A) Its economy is better (poorer, but more industry) and B) because Cuba has a very peculiar system, the ppp data being somewhat questionable, as the variety of products available is quite low (example: only cars they can get are 40 year old americans.)


Not true, they have better healthcare system than the US probably and produce their own medicine