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Forums - Gaming - Greek economy

Alkibiádēs on 30 June 2015
walsufnir said:
Alkibiádēs said:
walsufnir said:
mai said:

So what about Italy, Spain, Portugal, France, Denmark or Ireland? Were they "worthy"?


That's a good question but I am not to judge and I am not the person who had the data to judge it. And I am not the person who made up the criteria. Thing is, the whole Euro topic is something that shows how democracy works (at least in Germany): Every 4 years you are allowed to elect people who dictate you what will happen.

There is a former German politician who said that is unfair to judge a government after election by their pre-election promises... this tells you what attitude they have towards the people they want them to vote.

Germany got the Euro because the government wanted it. No matter which party. Why weren't we able to vote for it? Because they knew we wouldn't want it. UK is a perfect example of this. It is absolutely ridiculous how we think that the world should function (see arabic spring) but democracy is only good for them if the common people do exactly what they want.

Do you remember when Ireland was to join EU? How many times did they do an election? "Let's vote until we get what we waYnt".

You're suggesting a direct democracy, like in Ancient Greece, but that's impossible for big nation states like Germany. It would run like a train wreck. It barely worked in Ancient Greece, let alone in a country of 60 million people. Athens had what? 250.000 people?

You know the majority isn't always right, in fact they rarely are. The country should be run by people who have the expertise and knowledge in such things, the masses don't possess that knowledge. How could they?


But do they? After what we know now about Greece and Euro, this point just can't be completely true. What "knowledge" do these people have? Our person in charge for defense, Ursula von der Leyen, was responsible for family ministry. She is totally exchangable. And she is only one example.

But to the other point: I don't want votes for every single fart out there, definitely not. But changing a currency is something so big that you have to let the common people vote for or against. The people in charge didn't evidently not have enough expertise and knowledge for the Euro.

I doubt today's economy would be better without the Euro, maybe for some countries.

And it's YOUR job to vote on the people (or in this case: party) who you think have such expertise or skill.

Indirect democracy is far from perfect, but tell me when you have found something better. As for the EU, yeah, it needs to be better organized...



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walsufnir on 30 June 2015
Alkibiádēs said:
walsufnir said:


But do they? After what we know now about Greece and Euro, this point just can't be completely true. What "knowledge" do these people have? Our person in charge for defense, Ursula von der Leyen, was responsible for family ministry. She is totally exchangable. And she is only one example.

But to the other point: I don't want votes for every single fart out there, definitely not. But changing a currency is something so big that you have to let the common people vote for or against. The people in charge didn't evidently not have enough expertise and knowledge for the Euro.

I doubt today's economy would be better without the Euro, maybe for some countries.

And it's YOUR job to vote on the people (or in this case: party) who you think have such expertise or skill.

Indirect democracy is far from perfect, but tell me when you have found something better. As for the EU, yeah, it needs to be better organized...


You can doubt what you want but we don't know what the economy would be without the introduction of Euro. But did it harm UK not getting a new currency?

I don't have many options to vote. What if I doubt any of these guys have skill or expertise? Especially considering that most posts get assigned *after* election. "Cool, the guy I wanted to be in charge for defense now is responsible for environment". So you don't vote for the best but for the best available which is not necessarily the best.

In my opinion the suisse model is quite good. They have direct democracy in certain points and this also makes people feel democracy way better. Even better, people read about a topic and can make up their own opinion about it, rather than letting people from the government decide alone and totally ignoring what the common people want.

Example: government people earn money (of course). Every now and then there salary raises. The question if the salary should raise is answered by the people who get the salary! This is like people at work getting the question "do you want to have more money? Let's say 10%?" Who would answer no? Thing is, *we* pay them. They should ask *us* if they should get more money. But this doesn't happen, they decide on their own. What I want to say: There are many little things that make people frustrated about the government so that the voter participation goes down and down after each election and still the people "in charge" don't see anything wrong in what they are doing.

We have to get to the point where these people understand themselves as representatives of the common people.



hentai_11 on 30 June 2015
walsufnir said:
mai said:

So what about Italy, Spain, Portugal, France, Denmark or Ireland? Were they "worthy"?


That's a good question but I am not to judge and I am not the person who had the data to judge it. And I am not the person who made up the criteria. Thing is, the whole Euro topic is something that shows how democracy works (at least in Germany): Every 4 years you are allowed to elect people who dictate you what will happen.

There is a former German politician who said that is unfair to judge a government after election by their pre-election promises... this tells you what attitude they have towards the people they want them to vote.

Germany got the Euro because the government wanted it. No matter which party. Why weren't we able to vote for it? Because they knew we wouldn't want it. UK is a perfect example of this. It is absolutely ridiculous how we think that the world should function (see arabic spring) but democracy is only good for them if the common people do exactly what they want.

Do you remember when Ireland was to join EU? How many times did they do an election? "Let's vote until we get what we want".

The EU had criterias which had to be met to get the Euro. However the greek politicians cheated and faked their numbers to get the Euro. Here is a german link. (too lazy to search for an english one ...)

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/statistik-skandal-griechen-schummelten-sich-in-waehrungsunion-1.918589



Nettles on 30 June 2015

All this news on Greece is somewhat deflecting the news of Puerto Rico defaulting on it's debt.
Things are getting worse, thats for sure.



m0ney on 30 June 2015

EU & Co have lent Greece 240 billion - that is 30k on one person - that they don't intend to give back as I understand. Apparently they have more rotten government than any other European country, why feel sorry?



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walsufnir on 30 June 2015
hentai_11 said:
walsufnir said:
mai said:

So what about Italy, Spain, Portugal, France, Denmark or Ireland? Were they "worthy"?


That's a good question but I am not to judge and I am not the person who had the data to judge it. And I am not the person who made up the criteria. Thing is, the whole Euro topic is something that shows how democracy works (at least in Germany): Every 4 years you are allowed to elect people who dictate you what will happen.

There is a former German politician who said that is unfair to judge a government after election by their pre-election promises... this tells you what attitude they have towards the people they want them to vote.

Germany got the Euro because the government wanted it. No matter which party. Why weren't we able to vote for it? Because they knew we wouldn't want it. UK is a perfect example of this. It is absolutely ridiculous how we think that the world should function (see arabic spring) but democracy is only good for them if the common people do exactly what they want.

Do you remember when Ireland was to join EU? How many times did they do an election? "Let's vote until we get what we want".

The EU had criterias which had to be met to get the Euro. However the greek politicians cheated and faked their numbers to get the Euro. Here is a german link. (too lazy to search for an english one ...)

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/statistik-skandal-griechen-schummelten-sich-in-waehrungsunion-1.918589


Yes but nobody talks about this anymore strangely. The public discussion is concentrating on various points but we should concentrate on "cause and effect". Even if Greece would get money again this time, what are they going to change so this is the last time they get money from other countries?

The Greece government lied and because of this, I as a German have to pay for it. And many others, too. This can't be right.



routsounmanman on 30 June 2015
Moonhero said:
Let America fix it. Turn it into our new vacation land. Aww yeah, USA.

Just have the rest of the EU take over for a bit. I'm sure they cancan't do any worse than the Greek government did.


Greece is basically run by the EU for the past 5 years, lol.



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routsounmanman on 30 June 2015
walsufnir said:
hentai_11 said:
walsufnir said:
mai said:

So what about Italy, Spain, Portugal, France, Denmark or Ireland? Were they "worthy"?


That's a good question but I am not to judge and I am not the person who had the data to judge it. And I am not the person who made up the criteria. Thing is, the whole Euro topic is something that shows how democracy works (at least in Germany): Every 4 years you are allowed to elect people who dictate you what will happen.

There is a former German politician who said that is unfair to judge a government after election by their pre-election promises... this tells you what attitude they have towards the people they want them to vote.

Germany got the Euro because the government wanted it. No matter which party. Why weren't we able to vote for it? Because they knew we wouldn't want it. UK is a perfect example of this. It is absolutely ridiculous how we think that the world should function (see arabic spring) but democracy is only good for them if the common people do exactly what they want.

Do you remember when Ireland was to join EU? How many times did they do an election? "Let's vote until we get what we want".

The EU had criterias which had to be met to get the Euro. However the greek politicians cheated and faked their numbers to get the Euro. Here is a german link. (too lazy to search for an english one ...)

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/statistik-skandal-griechen-schummelten-sich-in-waehrungsunion-1.918589


[...]

The Greece government lied and because of this, I as a German have to pay for it. And many others, too. This can't be right.

As a Greek I died in WW2 and paid afterwards, shaving off 50% of your debt. This can't be right.



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walsufnir on 30 June 2015
routsounmanman said:
walsufnir said:


[...]

The Greece government lied and because of this, I as a German have to pay for it. And many others, too. This can't be right.

As a Greek I died in WW2 and paid afterwards, shaving off 50% of your debt. This can't be right.


No you didn't. And that you try to counter an argument with history is funny. Btw, Germans still pay a lot because of WW2, Greece is just additionally.



freebs2 on 30 June 2015
padib said:
noname2200 said:
haxxiy said:

The "Most compassionate" is my personal favorite.

France considering itself the most and least arrogant all at once is precious too.

Italy considering itself the least trustworthy is equally precious.

At least we're honest...

...about not being honest ;)