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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Why do Zelda Console games take 5 years to develop.... ?

TheLastStarFighter said:
Miyamotoo said:
TheLastStarFighter said:
Miyamotoo said:

Every new Zelda is becoming bigger and more complex, so its needed more time, especially if it is first HD, most open and with biggest world in any Zelda game.

OoT is considered for best game ever, not just best Zelda, so it's really hard that new Zelda (or every other game) will top OoT and 99 MetaScore. So we have fall of MetaScore from 95>93, evan from 99>93, is that relly big big problem!? Is that really for wake up call!? Because Zelda U looks very promising, it's too early but I can see it like best Zelda game after OoT.

Biggest problem with Skyward Sword where motion controls, I liked them, but some people didn't, also game required Motion Plus addon, that had huge impact on sale of game.

Like I said, 99 quality game probably will never happen again, all other Zelda scores are around 95 and SS is 93, thats not relly reason for Iwata to cracking heads. :)

Also, A Link Between Worlds is better Zelda game than few previous handheld Zelda's.

Going from SD to HD and to new hardware was big problem for whole Nintendo, not just Zelda team, not just Zelda team, but they overcome those problems.

As a fan of Zelda since its inception, SS had issues beyond the motion controls (though that was one problem).  Generally speaking, it had make-work missions that extended the game artificially, had a less than excellent art style (the bird designs were more Muppet than epic), and the whole prequel-origin aspect to me was dealt with only moderately well.  The world could have really been a primevil undesturbed wilderness, ancient and mysterious, but that only partially well executed.  This in contrast to the brilliantly executed OoT story or even the very clever MM theme.  SS is even fairly superior in theme and execution to SS.  Not a bad game, but for a 5 year development with a supposedly large and talented team, it's a minor let down.

I have high hopes for Zelda U, but the track record of the Anouma Zelda team since Yoshiaki Koizumi (and his creative plot writing and game mechanics) left to lead EAD Tokyo is not promising.  Double the time with measurably inferior results.

Skyward Sword isn't perfect certainly (what game is!?), but again its very good game, for me SS is better Zelda than TP.

I think that Motion Controls affect on long development of SS.

You sound like evry Zelda game is devolped long like SS and thats not true. Zelda U is completely different story, first HD Zelda, most open and biggest world in any Zelda game, certainly they can't finish game like that in only 2-3 years, especially with other projects, WW HD, A Link Between Worlds...   And like I wrote, every new Zelda is becoming bigger and more complex and need more time to be developed, you can't expect new Zelda game to be smaller and to be developed in less time.

Me: Recent Zeldas have been of poorer quality but taking longer to make.

You: Starfighter is saying every Zelda is taking long like SS. 

 

Am I missing something?  How do you come up with that conclusion. 

I'm saying up to SS, Zelda games were made in 3 years and were at worst masterpieces and at best the greatest game made to date. SS bucked the trend, took twice as long and was one of the poorest received titles (still decent).  Now Zelda U is once again taking at least 5 years to release.  Like SS and WW, it seems like Aonouma is having a change of heart mid-production and majorly reworking the title. This is showing incompetence in leadership. If nothing else, with better foresight or decision making he could have produced twice as many titles or titles which are twice as good.

 

I would be more accepting of a 5 year development if the results were groundbreaking or exceptional in execution.  But we haven't seen that. We have seen the Zelda team toil for a year or two, rework the game, then release a product that is of lesser quality, innovation, impact and reception than its predecessors.

 

GTA V took the longest Dev time in the series yet, but few would argue that it offers the best GTA experience yet, and it has reviewed and sold as the best title in years.

Maybe you missed this

when polling multiple thousands of people Skyward Sword beat out OOT in every single catagory. Skyward Sword IS considered a masterpiece by all but the vocal minority who hate the motion controls. 



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RAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

 

 

DO NOT QUESTION ZELDA TIME/STORY/GAMEPLAY/ANYTHING 

 

 

EVER AGAIN!

 

 

You have been warned.



Pavolink said:
Jon-Erich said:

1. Wind Waker was able have a smoother development process since the Oracle games were outsourced. This meant that Nintendo was able to jump straight from Majora's Mask to Wind Waker. Also, Twilight Princess used the same engine as WInd Waker. This could have easily cut back on development time. Again, Skyward Sword didn't take 5 years to make. It took 2 years before they could start making it.

2. Do you know who else does that? Shigeru Miyamoto. Satoru Iwata also did it during the development of Earthbound. I'm sure you've heard of Shigeru Miyamoto's 'upending the tea table'?

http://www.zeldadungeon.net/wiki/Upending_the_Tea_Table

Given that Eiji Aonuma worked under him for many years, it would be no surprise if his methods are similar. Shinji Mikami used to take similar approaches with the Resident Evil series. Wether it's Iwata, Miyamoto, Mikami, or Aonuma, they cared more about making a good game than getting a game out on time. Besides, we still got plenty of Zleda games. Sure they weren't all 3D console Zelda games, but what would you rather have, one or two really good 3D Zelda games, or three or four medicore ones?

3. Actually, PS2 couldn't handle open world games. Ever play Shadows of the Colossus? Remember the framerate that game was running at? The PS2 almost couldn't handle it. Imagine playing an entire Zleda game at that same frame rate. Then, try to imagine what combat with multiple enemies would have been like. There's a reason why Shadow of the Colossus was almost devoid of life. It's true that GameCube could have handled such a game a little better, but not to the point where we could have gotten a decent Zelda game out of it. As for Wind Waker, most of that game was empty. Most of it was an ocean. It's not very hard to make a game like that using GameCube hardware.

But to create a huge open world game that's seamless and doesn't cut off at any point with multple terrain and many moving enemies and objects on the screen at once? PS2 or GameCube couldn't do anything like that. The Wii was basically an overclocked GameCube so that system couldn't do anything like that. Besides, if you look at the evolution of the Zelda series, it would seem like Zelda U is the direction the devleopers had been trying to take the series in since Ocarina of TIme. With OOT, the developers challenged thmeselves to have a huge 3D world instead of relying on a Super Mario 64-style hubworld. Wind Waker attempted to create a huge open world game by focusing on the ocean as the main setting. Twilight Princess tried to created a more expanded version of OOT's overworld. Skyward Sword attempted something similar to Wind Waker but with the sky instead of the Ocean. Now they have the hardware to do something they've been attempting to do for nearly 20 years. It's not anyone's fault. They just had to wait for the right hardware to come along.

Also, the reason I asked about playing the NES Zelda is because you didn't seem to get what he was saying.

1. They could have outsourced A lInk between Worlds, only game released by the Zelda team since Skyward Sword. Game was vey similar to A Link to the Past.

2. That's one of the worst things ever. They normally scrath good ideas or cut content. Like whatever they done with the Paper Mario in Sticker Star.

3. And what about Xenoblade? Dragon Quest VIII? Okami? Yes, Zelda team is lazy.

 

And before Aonuma announced Zelda HD, I though going for a Zelda NES like game will be the best after the linearity of Skyward Sword. Yes, they keep getting lazy.

1. Hell no. Not that one. Maybe they could have outsourced Phantom Hourglass or Spirit Tracks but Not A Link Between Worlds. That game has been the best game released in years. Besdies, after the turmiol that they faced with Capcom and the Oracle games, I doubt Nintendo would ever outsource any Zelda game that isn't a spinoff or a remake. 

2. You call it one of the worst things ever but it has resulted in some of Nintendo's best games ever. It's always better to get a good product out than it is to get an okay product out on time. Also, imagine if we things the way you think they should be. Ocarina of Time would been reduced to being Super 64 set in the Zelda universe. If Shinji Mikami cared only about getting a game out on time, we would have never gotten the Resident Evil 4 that we ended up with. We're talking some of the most influential games ever. They ended up the way they did because the creators knew when to slam on the breaks start over. They chose to ignore the intended release in order to create a better product and the world is a better place because of it.

3. Those games don't even come close to what Nintendo is trying to achieve. Also, lazy? No. If they were lazy, they would make OOT over again, give it a coat of realisitc graphics in order to to appease the Western gamers and then have it out by the holidays even if it's full of bugs and glitches in order to appease the shareholders.

Aonuma's problem isn't that he's lazy and doesn't care. It's the opposite. He does care. Maybe a little too much. He still cares in an industry where people have been taught to stop caring. We've seen where not giving a shit has led companies. Look no further than Sega, Capcom, and Konami. Then there are those companies in the West who give us broken products at launch and expect us not to care about it. Why did they do this? Because they cared about getting a game out by a certain date in order appease the shareholders. Not because they cared about the product.



Check out my art blog: http://jon-erich-art.blogspot.com

Skyward Sword took longer because there waste many issues with the Motion+ controller they were forced to use. If it hadn't been for Motion+, it would have been done sooner. It wasn't Aonuma who forced Motion+ either, it would have been the decision of the combination of top brass who wanted to use Aonuma's game to leverage sales and usage of the peripheral.

The newer upcoming Zelda is a massive HD open-world game, and one of the first Nintendo has ever worked on.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

Jon-Erich said:
Pavolink said:
Jon-Erich said:

1. Wind Waker was able have a smoother development process since the Oracle games were outsourced. This meant that Nintendo was able to jump straight from Majora's Mask to Wind Waker. Also, Twilight Princess used the same engine as WInd Waker. This could have easily cut back on development time. Again, Skyward Sword didn't take 5 years to make. It took 2 years before they could start making it.

2. Do you know who else does that? Shigeru Miyamoto. Satoru Iwata also did it during the development of Earthbound. I'm sure you've heard of Shigeru Miyamoto's 'upending the tea table'?

http://www.zeldadungeon.net/wiki/Upending_the_Tea_Table

Given that Eiji Aonuma worked under him for many years, it would be no surprise if his methods are similar. Shinji Mikami used to take similar approaches with the Resident Evil series. Wether it's Iwata, Miyamoto, Mikami, or Aonuma, they cared more about making a good game than getting a game out on time. Besides, we still got plenty of Zleda games. Sure they weren't all 3D console Zelda games, but what would you rather have, one or two really good 3D Zelda games, or three or four medicore ones?

3. Actually, PS2 couldn't handle open world games. Ever play Shadows of the Colossus? Remember the framerate that game was running at? The PS2 almost couldn't handle it. Imagine playing an entire Zleda game at that same frame rate. Then, try to imagine what combat with multiple enemies would have been like. There's a reason why Shadow of the Colossus was almost devoid of life. It's true that GameCube could have handled such a game a little better, but not to the point where we could have gotten a decent Zelda game out of it. As for Wind Waker, most of that game was empty. Most of it was an ocean. It's not very hard to make a game like that using GameCube hardware.

But to create a huge open world game that's seamless and doesn't cut off at any point with multple terrain and many moving enemies and objects on the screen at once? PS2 or GameCube couldn't do anything like that. The Wii was basically an overclocked GameCube so that system couldn't do anything like that. Besides, if you look at the evolution of the Zelda series, it would seem like Zelda U is the direction the devleopers had been trying to take the series in since Ocarina of TIme. With OOT, the developers challenged thmeselves to have a huge 3D world instead of relying on a Super Mario 64-style hubworld. Wind Waker attempted to create a huge open world game by focusing on the ocean as the main setting. Twilight Princess tried to created a more expanded version of OOT's overworld. Skyward Sword attempted something similar to Wind Waker but with the sky instead of the Ocean. Now they have the hardware to do something they've been attempting to do for nearly 20 years. It's not anyone's fault. They just had to wait for the right hardware to come along.

Also, the reason I asked about playing the NES Zelda is because you didn't seem to get what he was saying.

1. They could have outsourced A lInk between Worlds, only game released by the Zelda team since Skyward Sword. Game was vey similar to A Link to the Past.

2. That's one of the worst things ever. They normally scrath good ideas or cut content. Like whatever they done with the Paper Mario in Sticker Star.

3. And what about Xenoblade? Dragon Quest VIII? Okami? Yes, Zelda team is lazy.

 

And before Aonuma announced Zelda HD, I though going for a Zelda NES like game will be the best after the linearity of Skyward Sword. Yes, they keep getting lazy.

1. Hell no. Not that one. Maybe they could have outsourced Phantom Hourglass or Spirit Tracks but Not A Link Between Worlds. That game has been the best game released in years. Besdies, after the turmiol that they faced with Capcom and the Oracle games, I doubt Nintendo would ever outsource any Zelda game that isn't a spinoff or a remake. 

2. You call it one of the worst things ever but it has resulted in some of Nintendo's best games ever. It's always better to get a good product out than it is to get an okay product out on time. Also, imagine if we things the way you think they should be. Ocarina of Time would been reduced to being Super 64 set in the Zelda universe. If Shinji Mikami cared only about getting a game out on time, we would have never gotten the Resident Evil 4 that we ended up with. We're talking some of the most influential games ever. They ended up the way they did because the creators knew when to slam on the breaks start over. They chose to ignore the intended release in order to create a better product and the world is a better place because of it.

3. Those games don't even come close to what Nintendo is trying to achieve. Also, lazy? No. If they were lazy, they would make OOT over again, give it a coat of realisitc graphics in order to to appease the Western gamers and then have it out by the holidays even if it's full of bugs and glitches in order to appease the shareholders.

Aonuma's problem isn't that he's lazy and doesn't care. It's the opposite. He does care. Maybe a little too much. He still cares in an industry where people have been taught to stop caring. We've seen where not giving a shit has led companies. Look no further than Sega, Capcom, and Konami. Then there are those companies in the West who give us broken products at launch and expect us not to care about it. Why did they do this? Because they cared about getting a game out by a certain date in order appease the shareholders. Not because they cared about the product.

I have to agree that upending the table is probably the vast majority of the time benificial. To people working in the creative field, they know how hard it is to let go of things even if some things simply won't work. Sometimes it takes someone stepping in and saying that something needs to go is the only way to get the creators looking in new and better ways, or at the very least more comprehensible ways to create something.

George Lucas for example could really have used someone to scrap his stupid ideas for the prequels.



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TheLastStarFighter said:
Miyamotoo said:
TheLastStarFighter said:
Miyamotoo said:

Every new Zelda is becoming bigger and more complex, so its needed more time, especially if it is first HD, most open and with biggest world in any Zelda game.

OoT is considered for best game ever, not just best Zelda, so it's really hard that new Zelda (or every other game) will top OoT and 99 MetaScore. So we have fall of MetaScore from 95>93, evan from 99>93, is that relly big big problem!? Is that really for wake up call!? Because Zelda U looks very promising, it's too early but I can see it like best Zelda game after OoT.

Biggest problem with Skyward Sword where motion controls, I liked them, but some people didn't, also game required Motion Plus addon, that had huge impact on sale of game.

Like I said, 99 quality game probably will never happen again, all other Zelda scores are around 95 and SS is 93, thats not relly reason for Iwata to cracking heads. :)

Also, A Link Between Worlds is better Zelda game than few previous handheld Zelda's.

Going from SD to HD and to new hardware was big problem for whole Nintendo, not just Zelda team, not just Zelda team, but they overcome those problems.

As a fan of Zelda since its inception, SS had issues beyond the motion controls (though that was one problem).  Generally speaking, it had make-work missions that extended the game artificially, had a less than excellent art style (the bird designs were more Muppet than epic), and the whole prequel-origin aspect to me was dealt with only moderately well.  The world could have really been a primevil undesturbed wilderness, ancient and mysterious, but that only partially well executed.  This in contrast to the brilliantly executed OoT story or even the very clever MM theme.  SS is even fairly superior in theme and execution to SS.  Not a bad game, but for a 5 year development with a supposedly large and talented team, it's a minor let down.

I have high hopes for Zelda U, but the track record of the Anouma Zelda team since Yoshiaki Koizumi (and his creative plot writing and game mechanics) left to lead EAD Tokyo is not promising.  Double the time with measurably inferior results.

Skyward Sword isn't perfect certainly (what game is!?), but again its very good game, for me SS is better Zelda than TP.

I think that Motion Controls affect on long development of SS.

You sound like evry Zelda game is devolped long like SS and thats not true. Zelda U is completely different story, first HD Zelda, most open and biggest world in any Zelda game, certainly they can't finish game like that in only 2-3 years, especially with other projects, WW HD, A Link Between Worlds...   And like I wrote, every new Zelda is becoming bigger and more complex and need more time to be developed, you can't expect new Zelda game to be smaller and to be developed in less time.

Me: Recent Zeldas have been of poorer quality but taking longer to make.

You: Starfighter is saying every Zelda is taking long like SS. 

 

Am I missing something?  How do you come up with that conclusion. 

I'm saying up to SS, Zelda games were made in 3 years and were at worst masterpieces and at best the greatest game made to date. SS bucked the trend, took twice as long and was one of the poorest received titles (still decent).  Now Zelda U is once again taking at least 5 years to release.  Like SS and WW, it seems like Aonouma is having a change of heart mid-production and majorly reworking the title. This is showing incompetence in leadership. If nothing else, with better foresight or decision making he could have produced twice as many titles or titles which are twice as good.

 

I would be more accepting of a 5 year development if the results were groundbreaking or exceptional in execution.  But we haven't seen that. We have seen the Zelda team toil for a year or two, rework the game, then release a product that is of lesser quality, innovation, impact and reception than its predecessors.

 

GTA V took the longest Dev time in the series yet, but few would argue that it offers the best GTA experience yet, and it has reviewed and sold as the best title in years.

Yes, you missing something.

You: Recent Zeldas have been of poorer quality but taking longer to make.

Me: 99 quality game probably will never happen again, all other Zelda scores are around 95 and SS is 93, yes truly so poorer quality. Every new Zelda is becoming bigger and more complex, so its needed more time, especially if it is first HD, most open and with biggest world in any Zelda game.

If we look development of all previous Zelda games and Zelda U, I think only SS need to be finished in less time, but like I wrote, I think late implantation of Motion Controls affect on long development of SS.

Why you think Zelda U will not be one of the best Zelda experience ever, all we heard or saw about Zelda U is very very promising.



garywood said:
I do think Zelda is probably inferior in terms of value to Nintendo in comparison with things like 2D Mario, Mario Kart, Pokemon, etc

But Zelda (along with 3D mario) has long since been their flagship series when it comes to game design and technological innovation. They spend so long because the series has such a high standard, the games are usually quite large, and they're always trying to get something new into them.

Yes, and Zelda is game that almost always get the maximum from hardware, that's another reason that infect on time development.



Why do Zelda Console games take 5 years to develop....

qaulity takes time.

pick any 2:

 

nintendo pick good + cheap, when they do projects.



Jon-Erich said:
Pavolink said:
Jon-Erich said:

1. Wind Waker was able have a smoother development process since the Oracle games were outsourced. This meant that Nintendo was able to jump straight from Majora's Mask to Wind Waker. Also, Twilight Princess used the same engine as WInd Waker. This could have easily cut back on development time. Again, Skyward Sword didn't take 5 years to make. It took 2 years before they could start making it.

2. Do you know who else does that? Shigeru Miyamoto. Satoru Iwata also did it during the development of Earthbound. I'm sure you've heard of Shigeru Miyamoto's 'upending the tea table'?

http://www.zeldadungeon.net/wiki/Upending_the_Tea_Table

Given that Eiji Aonuma worked under him for many years, it would be no surprise if his methods are similar. Shinji Mikami used to take similar approaches with the Resident Evil series. Wether it's Iwata, Miyamoto, Mikami, or Aonuma, they cared more about making a good game than getting a game out on time. Besides, we still got plenty of Zleda games. Sure they weren't all 3D console Zelda games, but what would you rather have, one or two really good 3D Zelda games, or three or four medicore ones?

3. Actually, PS2 couldn't handle open world games. Ever play Shadows of the Colossus? Remember the framerate that game was running at? The PS2 almost couldn't handle it. Imagine playing an entire Zleda game at that same frame rate. Then, try to imagine what combat with multiple enemies would have been like. There's a reason why Shadow of the Colossus was almost devoid of life. It's true that GameCube could have handled such a game a little better, but not to the point where we could have gotten a decent Zelda game out of it. As for Wind Waker, most of that game was empty. Most of it was an ocean. It's not very hard to make a game like that using GameCube hardware.

But to create a huge open world game that's seamless and doesn't cut off at any point with multple terrain and many moving enemies and objects on the screen at once? PS2 or GameCube couldn't do anything like that. The Wii was basically an overclocked GameCube so that system couldn't do anything like that. Besides, if you look at the evolution of the Zelda series, it would seem like Zelda U is the direction the devleopers had been trying to take the series in since Ocarina of TIme. With OOT, the developers challenged thmeselves to have a huge 3D world instead of relying on a Super Mario 64-style hubworld. Wind Waker attempted to create a huge open world game by focusing on the ocean as the main setting. Twilight Princess tried to created a more expanded version of OOT's overworld. Skyward Sword attempted something similar to Wind Waker but with the sky instead of the Ocean. Now they have the hardware to do something they've been attempting to do for nearly 20 years. It's not anyone's fault. They just had to wait for the right hardware to come along.

Also, the reason I asked about playing the NES Zelda is because you didn't seem to get what he was saying.

1. They could have outsourced A lInk between Worlds, only game released by the Zelda team since Skyward Sword. Game was vey similar to A Link to the Past.

2. That's one of the worst things ever. They normally scrath good ideas or cut content. Like whatever they done with the Paper Mario in Sticker Star.

3. And what about Xenoblade? Dragon Quest VIII? Okami? Yes, Zelda team is lazy.

 

And before Aonuma announced Zelda HD, I though going for a Zelda NES like game will be the best after the linearity of Skyward Sword. Yes, they keep getting lazy.

1. Hell no. Not that one. Maybe they could have outsourced Phantom Hourglass or Spirit Tracks but Not A Link Between Worlds. That game has been the best game released in years. Besdies, after the turmiol that they faced with Capcom and the Oracle games, I doubt Nintendo would ever outsource any Zelda game that isn't a spinoff or a remake. 

2. You call it one of the worst things ever but it has resulted in some of Nintendo's best games ever. It's always better to get a good product out than it is to get an okay product out on time. Also, imagine if we things the way you think they should be. Ocarina of Time would been reduced to being Super 64 set in the Zelda universe. If Shinji Mikami cared only about getting a game out on time, we would have never gotten the Resident Evil 4 that we ended up with. We're talking some of the most influential games ever. They ended up the way they did because the creators knew when to slam on the breaks start over. They chose to ignore the intended release in order to create a better product and the world is a better place because of it.

3. Those games don't even come close to what Nintendo is trying to achieve. Also, lazy? No. If they were lazy, they would make OOT over again, give it a coat of realisitc graphics in order to to appease the Western gamers and then have it out by the holidays even if it's full of bugs and glitches in order to appease the shareholders.

Aonuma's problem isn't that he's lazy and doesn't care. It's the opposite. He does care. Maybe a little too much. He still cares in an industry where people have been taught to stop caring. We've seen where not giving a shit has led companies. Look no further than Sega, Capcom, and Konami. Then there are those companies in the West who give us broken products at launch and expect us not to care about it. Why did they do this? Because they cared about getting a game out by a certain date in order appease the shareholders. Not because they cared about the product.

Again, I completely agree.

When Nintendo delivers us broken or bad Zelda game for home console, then we can say that they are lazy or they dont care. I dont think that day will come in near future, there is a reason why Zelda franchise maintenance very high quality for 30 years.

 

What do you think about Zelda U for now and development of that game?



TheLastStarFighter said:
tolu619 said:

 

 


So you had to convert a program to Unity

 OMG! Doesn't change the fact that Window, GTA and Zelda are all heavily built on previous gens. Get it together champ!

 

"Heavily built on previous gens" and "been using the same engine since the N64 days" are not the same thing. You don't seem to know what an engine is in software architecture. You're acting like this is an argument between you and I in which one person has to win. It isn't. I simply corrected your wrong statement and you simply refuse to hear the truth. You clearly don't have much to say in response to what I've explained, seeing as you specifically picked out one example, the example I cited about converting to Unity, and then failed to explain why my example or explanation was wrong. You can chose not to learn, but I'll bet some others who have read my posts would learn a few things. That's supposed to be one of the advantages of forums. I've learnt a lot from people here, and it shouldn't be hard to research the validity of my statements. You have search engines at your disposal. And you can also ask your friend who works/worked at Microsoft whether your statement about using the same engine is even possible.

 

@Rolstoppable, your point about the treatment of the Zelda team sounds very likely now that you explain it.



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