By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - Why Are You An Atheist?

sc94597 said:
JWeinCom said:


I get that, but I kind of think if you treat it like that, the term kind of losing its meaning.  I am as sure as the fact that the Judeochristian god does not exist as I am that Bowser does not exist.  That's why I don't like the term agnostic.  Most people think of it as having some significant doubt.

Believe it or not there are athiests who believe they've falsified the existence of any deity, logically. The question is more of an epistemological one of philosophy vs. science. In science you are always an agnostic with how you address knowledge. There is always the possibility that something doesn't explain the full picture. In philosophy/logic you are dealing with absolute truths. 

So the distinction between a gnostic athiest and an agnostic athiest is a real one. 

The terms "agnostic" vs. "gnostic" are most useful when we ask the questions with regards to deities in general (not any specific one.) 

I understand the difference on a technical level, but I think you have to take into account the way language is used colloquially.  I feel that if I told people I'm an agnostic atheist, I wouldn't be effectively explaining my view to them.



Around the Network
JWeinCom said:
Teeqoz said:


Yes. (FYI I'm an agnostic atheist myself). I see where you're coming from, but you and I agree that regardless of how sure we are, we can't, by definition, be 100% sure.


I get that, but I kind of think if you treat it like that, the term kind of losing its meaning.  I am as sure as the fact that the Judeochristian god does not exist as I am that Bowser does not exist.  That's why I don't like the term agnostic.  Most people think of it as having some significant doubt.


You may still have significant doubt even though you think we can't know for sure. The thing is, there are agnostic theists too. Neither agnostic, gnostic, theist or atheist are enough by themselves. You need to have both to describe someone. People saying "I'm agnostic" are just misusing the word. Most likely they are agnostic atheists, aka "I believe there is no God" (there's the doubt) "but we can't disprove a theoretical God".



JWeinCom said:
ohmylanta1003 said:


Let's not take potshots, shall we?


I don't see a potshot there.  If that's his reason, that's his reason.


But by saying common sense, he's indirectly saying that anyone that thinks otherwise is stupid. What he should have said is that it makes sense to HIM.



I bet the Wii U would sell more than 15M LTD by the end of 2015. He bet it would sell less. I lost.

Well I've been calling myself an agnostic Atheist for quite some time, it wasn't really a choice for me, I can't force myself to believe in such nonsense. I was a Christian growing up, obviously indoctrinated by my family. Once I actually started to think critically of Religion is when I saw them for what they truly are, just aged old mythology used to explain stuff we didn't understand then. After leaving Christianity I researched a bunch of religions because I desperately wanted to find something I can really connect with to have that spiritual connection people talk about. Sadly I found that all organized religions are equally flawed/crazy, although some of them sounded really cool from a fictional standpoint.

I'm not opposed to a creator/god but I think organized religions are so dated and are holding society back in many ways, screw those cults, forge your own beliefs.



Teeqoz said:
JWeinCom said:


I get that, but I kind of think if you treat it like that, the term kind of losing its meaning.  I am as sure as the fact that the Judeochristian god does not exist as I am that Bowser does not exist.  That's why I don't like the term agnostic.  Most people think of it as having some significant doubt.


You may still have significant doubt even though you think we can't know for sure. The thing is, there are agnostic theists too. Neither agnostic, gnostic, theist or atheist are enough by themselves. You need to have both to describe someone. People saying "I'm agnostic" are just misusing the word. Most likely they are agnostic atheists, aka "I believe there is no God" (there's the doubt) "but we can't disprove a theoretical God".

Yeah, I get that, but I think the language is imprecise.  There is a difference between someone who can't completely disprove god, and someone who thinks there is a reasonable chance that god (yahweh) exists.  That's why I prefer Dawkin's terminology (de facto atheist, strong atheist, weak atheist etc.) better.  



Around the Network
ohmylanta1003 said:
JWeinCom said:


I don't see a potshot there.  If that's his reason, that's his reason.


But by saying common sense, he's indirectly saying that anyone that thinks otherwise is stupid. What he should have said is that it makes sense to HIM.


I don't want to speak for anyone else, but I don't think that's what he meant.  I believe he meant that it is abundantly obvious, and any rational person should be able to see it, not that it's just his interpretation.  If that idea is offensive to other people, so be it, but if that's his opinion which the topic was asking for (again don't want to shove words in his mouth) I can't think of a clearer way to express it.



JWeinCom said:
sc94597 said:

Believe it or not there are athiests who believe they've falsified the existence of any deity, logically. The question is more of an epistemological one of philosophy vs. science. In science you are always an agnostic with how you address knowledge. There is always the possibility that something doesn't explain the full picture. In philosophy/logic you are dealing with absolute truths. 

So the distinction between a gnostic athiest and an agnostic athiest is a real one. 

The terms "agnostic" vs. "gnostic" are most useful when we ask the questions with regards to deities in general (not any specific one.) 

I understand the difference on a technical level, but I think you have to take into account the way language is used colloquially.  I feel that if I told people I'm an agnostic atheist, I wouldn't be effectively explaining my view to them.

I understand. In my original post, I mostly wanted to address the people who say things like "Agnosticism is weak athiesm for people who are scared or think athiesm is bad. Some agnostics can be thiests, some can be indifferent, and others can actively disbelieve in the existence of a god. While athiesm might describe an agnostic athiest better than agnosticism, colloquially, agnosticism has a much wider meaning and a larger spectrum. To characterize it as "weak athiesm" (something with an entirely different meaning) is to over-simplify things in my opinion. They are answers to very different questions. If somebody asked me "Do you believe we can know anything about the existence of a deity?" I'd say, "no, I am an agnostic." If somebody asked me, "do you believe in the existence of a deity?" I'd say, "No, I am an athiest." The usefulness of making this distinction for the context of somebody who wants to understand is that it helps explain where the athiesm comes from. In my case, it comes from my agnosticism. My beliefs are rooted in empiricism and rationalism. Therefore, anything that I am agnostic about I cannot form a positive belief for. The athiesm of a gnostic comes from something very much different. They believe that they've disproved the diety, logically, and therefore can't believe in his existence because he does not exist.

This also helps inform us of the two types of theists. There are those who "feel" a god exists, based on anecdotal "knowledge"/pattern-seeking and instinct and there are those who know a god exists based on logic and/or teachings/scripture. I've found the first group much more tolerable than the second and I can empathize with them much more. 



sc94597 said:
JWeinCom said:

I understand the difference on a technical level, but I think you have to take into account the way language is used colloquially.  I feel that if I told people I'm an agnostic atheist, I wouldn't be effectively explaining my view to them.

I understand. In my original post, I mostly wanted to address the people who say things like "Agnosticism is weak athiesm for people who are scared or think athiesm is bad. Some agnostics can be thiests, some can be indifferent, and others can actively disbelieve in the existence of a god. While athiesm might describe an agnostic athiest better than agnosticism, colloquially, agnosticism has a much wider meaning and a larger spectrum. To characterize it as "weak athiesm" (something with an entirely different meaning) is to over-simplify things in my opinion. They are answers to very different questions. If somebody asked me "Do you believe we can know anything about the existence of a deity?" I'd say, "no, I am an agnostic." If somebody asked me, "do you believe in the existence of a deity?" I'd say, "No, I am an athiest." The usefulness of making this distinction for the context of somebody who wants to understand is that it helps explain where the athiesm comes from. In my case, it comes from my agnosticism. My beliefs are rooted in empiricism and rationalism. Therefore, anything that I am agnostic about I cannot form a positive belief for. The athiesm of a gnostic comes from something very much different. They believe that they've disproved the diety, logically, and therefore can't believe in his existence because he does not exist.

This also helps inform us of the two types of theists. There are those who "feel" a god exists, based on anecdotal "knowledge"/pattern-seeking and instinct and there are those who know a god exists based on logic and/or teachings/scripture. I've found the first group much more tolerable than the second and I can empathize with them much more. 


I totally agree with all that, and were I having a conversation with someone knowledgable about atheism and angosticism, I'd have no problem identifying as an agnostic in regards to yahweh.  But, like you said, a lot of people think agnosticism is weak atheism, and I don't want to give that impression.



JWeinCom said:
It's pretty simple. I have not seen any compelling evidence to believe in a deity.

The idea of a deistic god (one who created the universe but does not intervene) is unlikely, but possible. The idea of a theistic god (one that does intervene) I find highly unlikely. The idea of of a personal god (one that is interested in human affairs) is something I am nearly positive does not exist. As for any god that has thus far been proposed by man (yaweh, allah, jesus, zeus, appolo, krishna, brahma etc.) I am as close to 100% sure they do not exist as possible (although in fairness I haven't been exposed to every single god).

I would like to correct your opening statement. I did not choose to be an atheist, any more than I chose to believe in a heliocentric solar system. It is not a choice, but an interpretation of the available evidence. It's not a choice to believe in anything. It's a matter of how your mind processes the data.

It's nice when someone saves me the time of typing my own post :P

To add to this I was brought up Christian but eventually realised I simply didn't believe and came to this realisation the same way (I'm not saying this to be dissrespectful) I realised I didn't believe in Santa Claus.  I simply arrived at a point where believing made less sense than not believing. For me personally, God does not help to explain how existance, as we know it, came to be.

I would like to add, that this does not make me a horrible person nor make me feel that the universe less wondrous.  I still believe in being a good person, simply for the sake of it and not due to fear or some supposed reward in the afterlife. I believe that all of 'creation' ;) is splendid and magnificent and even more so because it started from something so simple and so mysterious rather than a personified deity.



bigtakilla said:
I'm not an athiest, I just don't care.


There is an actual term for that its what i refer to myself as which is an apatheist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apatheism welcome to the club :)