| PAOerfulone said: Wade in his heyday was something special. |
And he was robbed of the 08-09 MVP
WHO WILL WIN THE NBA FINALS? | |||
| Golden State Warriors | 53 | 66.25% | |
| Cleveland Cavaliers | 27 | 33.75% | |
| Total: | 80 | ||
| PAOerfulone said: Wade in his heyday was something special. |
And he was robbed of the 08-09 MVP
Angelus said:
And he was robbed of the 08-09 MVP |
Completely agree. Wade carried the last place team of the previous season to 5th place in the East while leading the league in scoring and averaging ridiculous numbers across the board.
amp316 said:
MVPs and championships aren't everything. Was Karl Malone or Charles Barkley a bum because they never won a title? Michael Jordan used to not win the MVP nearly every year since he couldn't win it every year. I personally would put Robertson or Olajuwon over LeBron, Shaq, or even Wilt. Shaq and Wilt both dominated because of their size but couldn't shoot a FT to save their lives. And while LeBron is the perfect athelete, he doesn't have the heart of any on that list. I could list a hundred that I think have more heart than him. Of course, that's just my opinion, after all. |
Of course Barkley and Malone aren't bums, but they're not Top 10 Greatest because of their lack of rings. As for Shaq and Wilt's inability to hit FT, they still have all the accolades and stats. I personally don't mind if someone wants to put Hakeem or Robertson over Lebron in the moment, but I don't think Shaq can be taken off any Top 10 list.
amp316 said:
Sorry, but I can't agree with this. Sure, he would have won more titles than Larry, but LeBron isn't going up against Magic's Lakers in the Finals. Also, Larry is quite possibly the greatest clutch shooter in history and we know that LeBron isn't even close to that. |
Actually that would tie him with Lary Bird as far as titles go the tie breaker would be all the other achievements he got. Also Bird might be a better clutch shooter but LeBron is a overall better player.
TheGoldenBoy said:
Of course Barkley and Malone aren't bums, but they're not Top 10 Greatest because of their lack of rings. As for Shaq and Wilt's inability to hit FT, they still have all the accolades and stats. I personally don't mind if someone wants to put Hakeem or Robertson over Lebron in the moment, but I don't think Shaq can be taken off any Top 10 list. |
John Stockton never won any rings but to be he is a top 10 player because of the numbers he put up. He is the best pure point guard of all time and no one is even going to come close to his total assist and steal numbers. Those two records he will have forever. Lets see the current active leader in assist (Andre Miller) barely has over half as many as Stockton did and the same applies to the current active leader in steals (Kobe Bryant) and both of those are very close to retiring.
amp316 said:
Where is Oscar Robertson on that list? |
Better question is where is John Stockon on that list he is the greatest pure point guard of all time no one will ever come close to his total assist and steal numbers. Plus the guy was a rock the only player from those Jazz teams that missed fewer games was Karl Malone.
Chris Hu said:
John Stockton never won any rings but to be he is a top 10 player because of the numbers he put up. He is the best pure point guard of all time and no one is even going to come close to his total assist and steal numbers. Those two records he will have forever. Lets see the current active leader in assist (Andre Miller) barely has over half as many as Stockton did and the same applies to the current active leader in steals (Kobe Bryant) and both of those are very close to retiring. |
Stockton is another one of those guys (like Barkley and Malone) that just can't be in the Top 10 because of their lack of rings. If sheer numbers is all it takes then Kareem should be considered the greatest of all time because he's Top 5 in Points, Blocks and Rebounds. For me personally it's a combination of the numbers and accomplishments. Stockton's definitely Top 20 though.
TheGoldenBoy said:
Stockton is another one of those guys (like Barkley and Malone) that just can't be in the Top 10 because of their lack of rings. If sheer numbers is all it takes then Kareem should be considered the greatest of all time because he's Top 5 in Points, Blocks and Rebounds. For me personally it's a combination of the numbers and accomplishments. Stockton's definitely Top 20 though. |
Nope, you need a team to win and Stockton just never had enough help besides Malone and even without much of a suporting cast he made it to two consecutive finals. Also its pretty dumb to have a top ten that doesn't have a player from every postion. Stockton is the best overall pure point guard so not putting him in a all time top ten is pretty dumb. The only other point guard you can put ahead of him because of titles is Magic Johsonson but that is a unfair comparison since in reality Magic Johson was a small forward that happened to play the point guard spot. Guys that are 6'9 are usually small forwards or shooting guards.
Robertson. Stockton. Olajuwon. All of those guys were amazing players, don't get me wrong, definitely in my top 15. But when it comes to the top 10, every single player that's around that area has their own strong case of being there, that some guys are unfortunately gonna have to be left out. While you make a strong case for Stockton, Robertson, and Olajuwon. Others can make just as strong cases for Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, or Julius Erving. And then more people will make their casese for Scottie Pippen, Isiah Thomas, or Clyde Drexler.
My reasons for having my top 10 are these:
1. Michael - It's Michael Jordan, need I say more?
2. Russell - 11 rings, a rebounding monster, and a defense nightmare inside the paint. If blocks were recorded stats back in the 60s, expect him and Wilt to be at the very top of the all time blocked shots list.
3. Kareem - All time leading NBA scorer, 6 league MVP's, 6 rings, the innovator of the most unstoppable shot in all of basketball - the Skyhook.
4. Magic - The Magic man, a guy who could do it all, a 6'9" PG who could also shoot, rebound, defend. He did everything he could to help the Lakers win, and his 5 rings and 3 Finals MVPs, and 3 league MVPs attest to that. Together with Larry Bird, he helped bring the NBA back from it's 6 ft grave it was being buried in during the 70s, and made it a nationwide popular event on nearly the same level as football, he and Larry saved the league. And who in that time could forget - SHOWTIME!!! And he's arguably the greatest Laker ever... Speaking of greatest Lakers ever...
5. Kobe - The modern day Michael Jordan, he had the same assassin's mentality that opponents feared, the very same mentality that many say LeBron lacks, which is the reason Larry Bird, Shaq, and Michael all have said that with both Kobe and LeBron in their prime, they'd take Kobe. He was a STONE COLD KILLER. In his prime, he was just unstoppable. Some of his best highlights are some that today's stars could only dream of achieving, 81 points in a game (only Wilt has scored more in one game), outscoring a Dallas Mavericks team through 3 quarters 63-62, the same Mavericks team in 2006 that would go the NBA Finals, 4 straight games with 50+ points. The complete offensive arsenal: shoot, post up, pass (when he felt like it), etc. And he was no slouch on defense either, a total lockdown defender. 5 rings, 2 Finals MVPs, 3rd all time in scoring, and when he retires, he has a good shot of going down as the greatest Laker ever.
6. Wilt the Stilt - The most dominant force in the history of the NBA, this guy once averaged 50pts and 27rebs IN THE SAME SEASON! As stated earlier, he once scored 100 points IN ONE GAME, (which was the one and only time where he shot good from the Free Throw line.) He and LeBron are the two most physically gifted athletes to step foot on a basketball court. Same as I said before with him and Russell being the two all time leaders in blcoked shots if they were recorded back then.
7. Tim Duncan - The Big Fundamental -(Where do you see that word in basketball anymore?). The greatest Power Forward of all time. 5 rings, 3 finals MVPs, 2 league MVPS, a top 15 scorer, top 10 rebounder, top 5 in blocked shots. The Spurs' franchise player. He took that small market team, who had David Robinson leading them to the playoffs, and made them into one of the best basketball franchises ever.
8. Larry Bird - The Legend. The most clutch performer in the history of the game. 3 rings, 2 finals MVPs, 3 league MVPs, won the Rookie of the Year award over Magic Johnson. He average a double-double for his career 24 pts, 10 rebs, to go along with 6 assists a game. As stated earlier, he & Magic saved the league together. There may not be an NBA today without Magic and Larry.
9. Shaq - Superman. The Big Aristotle. The Big Shaqtus. Wilt Chamberneezy and all these other stupid nicknames he came up with. Talk about a modern day Wilt Chamberlain, look no further than the big fella. Flat out domination. 6th all time in scoring Top 15 rebounder. Top 10 in blocked shots. 4 rings, 3 finals MVPs, one league MVP, where he averaged 30 points and close to 14 rebounds and 3 blocked shots a game. If he got the ball in the paint, there was no stopping him. He was nightmare for any team trying to guard him.
10. LeBron - The King. The true Mr. All Around (Sorry Scottie Pippen). The most physically gifted basketball player ever. 2 rings, 2 finals MVPs, 4 league MVPs. He has averaged 27 points, 7 rebounds, and 7 assists his entire career, along with close to 2 steals and 1 block per game as well. A guy who can play all 5 positions and play them all effectively! An extremely rare and special thing to see in a basketball player. And the scary thing is that he is still in his prime. He's still got a loooong way to go before he's done, so it's very possible for him to climb even further up this list.
Those are my reasons for having my top 10. And everyone else will have their own reasons for their own top 10. There have been a lot of players that in the league that are worthy of being on the top 10 list, but the thing is, you can't have those 20-30 all time greats on a list that can only hold 10 of them. So most of those players will have to take a cut. So it's really just a matter of fan opinion. But those players have made such strong cases that any fan's opinion and arguments in support of those players in their top 10 are legitmate and strong. You can absolutely make a case for Oscar Robertson or John Stockton, or Hakeem Olajuwon. But then you'd have to take out guys like Shaquille O'Neal, Tim Duncan, or LeBron James who are all just as deserving as those guys are.
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Chris Hu said:
Nope, you need a team to win and Stockton just never had enough help besides Malone and even without much of a suporting cast he made it to two consecutive finals. Also its pretty dumb to have a top ten that doesn't have a player from every postion. Stockton is the best overall pure point guard so not putting him in a all time top ten is pretty dumb. The only other point guard you can put ahead of him because of titles is Magic Johsonson but that is a unfair comparison since in reality Magic Johson was a small forward that happened to play the point guard spot. Guys that are 6'9 are usually small forwards or shooting guards. |
A Top 10 list isn't charity. You have to earn that spot and the facts are that there are 10+ players with greater accomplishments than John Stockton. What position you played doesn't matter in where you rank. You don't need a player from every position. You can make a Top 10 list with 6 Centers if you wanted to. This is not about creating the best team, it's about the greatest players to ever play.
Also, comparing Magic to John is also completely fair because Magic did play the PG position. It's your skill set that determines your position not your height. If that's the case then it's "unfair" to even compare Lebron with anyone since he can and does play the PG, SG, SF and PF positions effectively.