By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - General Discussion - Observation Shows Overwhelming Evidence for a Creator

Torillian said:
o_O.Q said:

the evidence is the underlying mathematical laws that givern everything... intelligence creates laws... its irrational to say that such precisely tuned laws that form the basis for everything just popped into being spontaneously

why is it irrational?  Do you have evidence of another universe without god's influence where there were no laws and everything was perfectly random at every moment?  You can't say something is unlikely or irrational when you only have one event to look at.  There is no proof that universes can come into existence without these laws, and in that context "every universe that is viable is defined by ____ laws" it would be perfectly rational for a randomly formed universe to come into existence with those laws.  

Lots of irrational things happen when you look at events outside of your everday life.  Quantum Mechanics is a great example which doesn't follow what most would deem rational, bt it' whatscience has observed.  If it's true that an electron can only exist in certain orbitals around an atom and not in between them then it seems reasonable to state that perhaps our universe exists as it does with the rules it does because that it the only way a universe can come to be.  


Funnily enough I know a theoretical physicist who told me that once you reach that level they stop teaching orbital theories and basically say they don't believe it. I'll have to ask him what their theoretical model currently is at some point. 



Around the Network
Blob said:
Torillian said:

why is it irrational?  Do you have evidence of another universe without god's influence where there were no laws and everything was perfectly random at every moment?  You can't say something is unlikely or irrational when you only have one event to look at.  There is no proof that universes can come into existence without these laws, and in that context "every universe that is viable is defined by ____ laws" it would be perfectly rational for a randomly formed universe to come into existence with those laws.  

Lots of irrational things happen when you look at events outside of your everday life.  Quantum Mechanics is a great example which doesn't follow what most would deem rational, bt it' whatscience has observed.  If it's true that an electron can only exist in certain orbitals around an atom and not in between them then it seems reasonable to state that perhaps our universe exists as it does with the rules it does because that it the only way a universe can come to be.  


Funnily enough I know a theoretical physicist who told me that once you reach that level they stop teaching orbital theories and basically say they don't believe it. I'll have to ask him what their theoretical model currently is at some point. 

You'll have to let me know.  I'm sure it's a simplification of reality that works for us chemists, but I'd be curious to know how it differs from what physicists who look at these things in detail consider.  

I do know that it isn't about discrete orbits around an atom but more that there are electron clouds around the nucleus with a certain probability to find the electron in any given space arond it.  The idea that the elctrons only have specific quantized states that they can be in comes does seem to hold water as the absorbance lines from elements are very crisp and not the continuum you would expect if the elctrons were totally free around the nucleus.  My understanding of it is that because the electron acts as a wave as well as a particle there are only certain distances around the nucleus where it can exist and the waveform of the electron will not destructively interfere with itself.  

Anything beyond that level of understanding though I would have to read up on.  



...

Blob said:
Torillian said:

why is it irrational?  Do you have evidence of another universe without god's influence where there were no laws and everything was perfectly random at every moment?  You can't say something is unlikely or irrational when you only have one event to look at.  There is no proof that universes can come into existence without these laws, and in that context "every universe that is viable is defined by ____ laws" it would be perfectly rational for a randomly formed universe to come into existence with those laws.  

Lots of irrational things happen when you look at events outside of your everday life.  Quantum Mechanics is a great example which doesn't follow what most would deem rational, bt it' whatscience has observed.  If it's true that an electron can only exist in certain orbitals around an atom and not in between them then it seems reasonable to state that perhaps our universe exists as it does with the rules it does because that it the only way a universe can come to be.  


Funnily enough I know a theoretical physicist who told me that once you reach that level they stop teaching orbital theories and basically say they don't believe it. I'll have to ask him what their theoretical model currently is at some point. 

because at some point human is limited by their brain and science is not everything, human need science to explain any event or natural law, but not everything can be expalin by science.



HollyGamer said:
o_O.Q said:

one more thing i'd like to add is that the Egyptians understood all of this which is why we use all of their symbols 

this is why there's a pryamid on the dollar bill

its why the staff of horus is used as the main symbol for medical sciences

and its why the washington monument is a giant penis

again i could list examples till my hair turns grey

Well bringing Egyptians as a sample is really wrong

because Egyptians worshiping Sun and Human, is really contradicting with today science and will only lead people to denied more or Intelligent creation.

They understood math and science (like most people who know science but does not worshiping God) but does not understood the connection between their God and their science.


now i'd like to preface this by saying that what follows will probably seem like the rantings of a crazy person but anyway i hate to break this to you but christians of this era worship the sun too... what you first have to understand is that sun worship is multifacted sure some people did worship the sun but others worshiped it as a symbol for intelligence

 

this is the vatican courtyard

 

in the middle there's a large obelisk and it is encircled by a large temple 

if you look at the ancient records the obelisk is the sign of the worship of the sun or of the light bearer or of lucipher or the penis of osirus etc etc etc ultimately it is the worship of intelligence because intelligence gave man the tools to dominate nature

 

with regards to the temple around the obelisk that is representative of the ancient structures pagans used in sun worship

for example this is a druidic gathering area 

 

do you see the similarity? why do you think catholics worship on sunday when the bible says to keep the sabbath holy? its because the religion from the start was corrupted by pagan practices and this is clear to anyone who looks back at the real history of the religion

 

personally i'd advise anyone that is serious about christianity to research its history and seek out their own path to god individually you do not need to associate yourself with a church or a label to pursue that path... most churches exist today to make money and that's it



Blob said:
Torillian said:

why is it irrational?  Do you have evidence of another universe without god's influence where there were no laws and everything was perfectly random at every moment?  You can't say something is unlikely or irrational when you only have one event to look at.  There is no proof that universes can come into existence without these laws, and in that context "every universe that is viable is defined by ____ laws" it would be perfectly rational for a randomly formed universe to come into existence with those laws.  

Lots of irrational things happen when you look at events outside of your everday life.  Quantum Mechanics is a great example which doesn't follow what most would deem rational, bt it' whatscience has observed.  If it's true that an electron can only exist in certain orbitals around an atom and not in between them then it seems reasonable to state that perhaps our universe exists as it does with the rules it does because that it the only way a universe can come to be.  


Funnily enough I know a theoretical physicist who told me that once you reach that level they stop teaching orbital theories and basically say they don't believe it. I'll have to ask him what their theoretical model currently is at some point. 

 

fair enough but i'm betting though that they still subscribe to the underlying basis that is void vs matter which was my point

i suppose at some point we may get rid of the void/matter dichotomy as our understanding grows

 

but my point remains that everything in existance is brought about by the interaction of two opposing forces



Around the Network

sorry double post



o_O.Q said:
HollyGamer said:
o_O.Q said:

one more thing i'd like to add is that the Egyptians understood all of this which is why we use all of their symbols 

this is why there's a pryamid on the dollar bill

its why the staff of horus is used as the main symbol for medical sciences

and its why the washington monument is a giant penis

again i could list examples till my hair turns grey

Well bringing Egyptians as a sample is really wrong

because Egyptians worshiping Sun and Human, is really contradicting with today science and will only lead people to denied more or Intelligent creation.

They understood math and science (like most people who know science but does not worshiping God) but does not understood the connection between their God and their science.


now i'd like to preface this by saying that what follows will probably seem like the rantings of a crazy person but anyway i hate to break this to you but christians of this era worship the sun too... what you first have to understand is that sun worship is multifacted sure some people did worship the sun but others worshiped it as a symbol for intelligence

do you see the similarity? why do you think catholics worship on sunday when the bible says to keep the sabbath holy? its because the religion from the start was corrupted by pagan practices and this is clear to anyone who looks back at the real history of the religion

personally i'd advise anyone that is serious about christianity to research its history and seek out their own path to god individually you do not need to associate yourself with a church or a label to pursue that path... most churches exist today to make money and that's it

Yeah agree with u on the bold part,

back to Egypth and Rome and ancient reigion , it doesnt mean if they worshiping sun mean they know about the Intellegent Creator or worshiping the Intelligent Creator, if they now the Sun is created by Intelegent Creator then why would they worshiping the creation not the creator. They may have advance interm of science (math). But there is no relations that shows that they know about intellegent creations.



Torillian said:
Blob said:


Funnily enough I know a theoretical physicist who told me that once you reach that level they stop teaching orbital theories and basically say they don't believe it. I'll have to ask him what their theoretical model currently is at some point. 

You'll have to let me know.  I'm sure it's a simplification of reality that works for us chemists, but I'd be curious to know how it differs from what physicists who look at these things in detail consider.  

I do know that it isn't about discrete orbits around an atom but more that there are electron clouds around the nucleus with a certain probability to find the electron in any given space arond it.  The idea that the elctrons only have specific quantized states that they can be in comes does seem to hold water as the absorbance lines from elements are very crisp and not the continuum you would expect if the elctrons were totally free around the nucleus.  My understanding of it is that because the electron acts as a wave as well as a particle there are only certain distances around the nucleus where it can exist and the waveform of the electron will not destructively interfere with itself.  

Anything beyond that level of understanding though I would have to read up on.  

 

Yeah the current model is a simplified version just to get the point across to the laymen. I'll have to remember to ask him as I keep forgetting or end up discussing other things with him.

So you're a chemist? In what field? 



Blob said:
Torillian said:
Blob said:


Funnily enough I know a theoretical physicist who told me that once you reach that level they stop teaching orbital theories and basically say they don't believe it. I'll have to ask him what their theoretical model currently is at some point. 

You'll have to let me know.  I'm sure it's a simplification of reality that works for us chemists, but I'd be curious to know how it differs from what physicists who look at these things in detail consider.  

I do know that it isn't about discrete orbits around an atom but more that there are electron clouds around the nucleus with a certain probability to find the electron in any given space arond it.  The idea that the elctrons only have specific quantized states that they can be in comes does seem to hold water as the absorbance lines from elements are very crisp and not the continuum you would expect if the elctrons were totally free around the nucleus.  My understanding of it is that because the electron acts as a wave as well as a particle there are only certain distances around the nucleus where it can exist and the waveform of the electron will not destructively interfere with itself.  

Anything beyond that level of understanding though I would have to read up on.  

 

Yeah the current model is a simplified version just to get the point across to the laymen. I'll have to remember to ask him as I keep forgetting or end up discussing other things with him.

So you're a chemist? In what field? 

bioinorganic chemistry, study of proteins that use metals either for their structure or their activity.  Most famous example of such a protein would be hemoglobin which has an Fe within its hemewhich is used for oxygen binding.  



...

All of your points are arguments from ignorance. None of them point to a god. You simply state that you don't understand how they can be how they are without god. The problem is your knowledge and nothing else. You can shove god in as the explanation where ever you feel like, but even if there are no other explanations there's still no way to assess the accuracy of yours.



4 ≈ One