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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Without Playstation, would the industry be in another crisis?

Mr Puggsly said:
Materia-Blade said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Ah, I said the Wiimote and Nunchuck is not a "standard" gamepad. Stop arguing this point, the existence of the Wii Pro Controller proves I'm right.

Here's the thing, you're looking at software sales as a whole. You aren't taking into consideration what type of software was selling on Wii. The people that enjoyed core games on Wii declined quickly. The people buying casual and 1st party games on Wii stayed around longer but went away as well. Wii support declined because the audience went away.

Again, I'm just giving facts. Most people will agree with me because its reality.

You said gamepad, wiimote + nunchuck is one. the pro controller is for the extra buttons.

Now to some points: there's no such thing as "casual" game. dismissing a game as "casual" is very imature. ya know, fps was a new genre once, will you consider it casual? the wii brought new kinds of play that were enjoyed by new and old gamers. on top of that, all kinds of games sold well to great on the wii. saying things like "The people that enjoyed core games on Wii declined quickly" is beyond wrong. it's pure downplaying. you aren't giving me facts, facts would be how wii had great software sales while software kept being released on it.

No, the Pro Controller is dual joystick and not motion based. The Wiimote and Nunchuck often utilize motion. Again, you're just wrong.

I'm not downplaying the Wii, I'm telling you why it went from mega popular to fading into obscurity rather quickly when compared to its competitors. The Wii U is struggling because the Wii was simply a fad. The audience Wii acquired were mostly just casuals that wanted something cool at the moment. The Wii owners that had a greater interest in gaming simply went to a console with superior core lineups like Xbox and Playstation.

For the record, I don't dislike the Wii and I still mine along with a collection of game. I think it was a fine machine with a respectable library. But the Wii audience was mostly casuals that wanted the cool new device. The audience for Wii went away quickly because it was mostly hype. It was a very successful platform for shovelware because the audience was generally not avid gamers.


And if we remove the mandatory bundled sw of Wii from sw total the attach ratio would be dangerously approaching 1/2 of X360, which again shows how it dropped hard and fast. For the more hacked excuse you see how the lack of foresight of Nintendo was big. X360 is quite easy to mod, but you lose MP so the strong online helped a lot. Also game price, Nintendo hold price for far too long, so people that would never pay 60 on the game but rather wait 1 year for used at sub 20 will just pirate the games. Now when you can find gems for 5-15 why pirate and lose online?



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Around the Network
S.T.A.G.E. said:
shenlong213 said:
Nope, the industry would be more peace

Really? Nintendo won their case but they were involved in shady tactics to stay ahead of the competition before the Playstation arrived.
http://articles.latimes.com/1992-05-02/business/fi-1361_1_video-game-market

Isn't that exactly what sony and ms do?



Mr Puggsly said:
Materia-Blade said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Ah, I said the Wiimote and Nunchuck is not a "standard" gamepad. Stop arguing this point, the existence of the Wii Pro Controller proves I'm right.

Here's the thing, you're looking at software sales as a whole. You aren't taking into consideration what type of software was selling on Wii. The people that enjoyed core games on Wii declined quickly. The people buying casual and 1st party games on Wii stayed around longer but went away as well. Wii support declined because the audience went away.

Again, I'm just giving facts. Most people will agree with me because its reality.

You said gamepad, wiimote + nunchuck is one. the pro controller is for the extra buttons.

Now to some points: there's no such thing as "casual" game. dismissing a game as "casual" is very imature. ya know, fps was a new genre once, will you consider it casual? the wii brought new kinds of play that were enjoyed by new and old gamers. on top of that, all kinds of games sold well to great on the wii. saying things like "The people that enjoyed core games on Wii declined quickly" is beyond wrong. it's pure downplaying. you aren't giving me facts, facts would be how wii had great software sales while software kept being released on it.

No, the Pro Controller is dual joystick and not motion based. The Wiimote and Nunchuck often utilize motion. Again, you're just wrong.

I'm not downplaying the Wii, I'm telling you why it went from mega popular to fading into obscurity rather quickly when compared to its competitors. The Wii U is struggling because the Wii was simply a fad. The audience Wii acquired were mostly just casuals that wanted something cool at the moment. The Wii owners that had a greater interest in gaming simply went to a console with superior core lineups like Xbox and Playstation.

For the record, I don't dislike the Wii and I still mine along with a collection of game. I think it was a fine machine with a respectable library. But the Wii audience was mostly casuals that wanted the cool new device. The audience for Wii went away quickly because it was mostly hype. It was a very successful platform for shovelware because the audience was generally not avid gamers.

Wiimote and nunchuck CAN utilize motion. It's only a few buttons from being a more tradicional controller.

"I'm not downplaying the Wii, I'm telling you why it went from mega popular to fading into obscurity rather quickly when compared to its competitors."

It didn't. Software sales only declined when software releases slowed considerably and it kept being played just like any other console. I can also counter argument that the competitors started the gen into obscurity and took a long time to get rid of it.

"The Wii U is struggling because the Wii was simply a fad. The audience Wii acquired were mostly just casuals that wanted something cool at the moment."

yeah, 100% wrong. also, that is downplaying. Wii was acquired and played by the usual audience of snes/ps/ps2 that are kids and teens. The difference is that it was also enjoyed by the older part of the family.

"The Wii owners that had a greater interest in gaming simply went to a console with superior core lineups like Xbox and Playstation."

Waiting for your proof but I already know it isn't true. you really should speak for yourself in subjects like this and stop downplaying a system and it's games.



DonFerrari said:
Mr Puggsly said:
Materia-Blade said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Ah, I said the Wiimote and Nunchuck is not a "standard" gamepad. Stop arguing this point, the existence of the Wii Pro Controller proves I'm right.

Here's the thing, you're looking at software sales as a whole. You aren't taking into consideration what type of software was selling on Wii. The people that enjoyed core games on Wii declined quickly. The people buying casual and 1st party games on Wii stayed around longer but went away as well. Wii support declined because the audience went away.

Again, I'm just giving facts. Most people will agree with me because its reality.

You said gamepad, wiimote + nunchuck is one. the pro controller is for the extra buttons.

Now to some points: there's no such thing as "casual" game. dismissing a game as "casual" is very imature. ya know, fps was a new genre once, will you consider it casual? the wii brought new kinds of play that were enjoyed by new and old gamers. on top of that, all kinds of games sold well to great on the wii. saying things like "The people that enjoyed core games on Wii declined quickly" is beyond wrong. it's pure downplaying. you aren't giving me facts, facts would be how wii had great software sales while software kept being released on it.

No, the Pro Controller is dual joystick and not motion based. The Wiimote and Nunchuck often utilize motion. Again, you're just wrong.

I'm not downplaying the Wii, I'm telling you why it went from mega popular to fading into obscurity rather quickly when compared to its competitors. The Wii U is struggling because the Wii was simply a fad. The audience Wii acquired were mostly just casuals that wanted something cool at the moment. The Wii owners that had a greater interest in gaming simply went to a console with superior core lineups like Xbox and Playstation.

For the record, I don't dislike the Wii and I still mine along with a collection of game. I think it was a fine machine with a respectable library. But the Wii audience was mostly casuals that wanted the cool new device. The audience for Wii went away quickly because it was mostly hype. It was a very successful platform for shovelware because the audience was generally not avid gamers.


And if we remove the mandatory bundled sw of Wii from sw total the attach ratio would be dangerously approaching 1/2 of X360, which again shows how it dropped hard and fast. For the more hacked excuse you see how the lack of foresight of Nintendo was big. X360 is quite easy to mod, but you lose MP so the strong online helped a lot. Also game price, Nintendo hold price for far too long, so people that would never pay 60 on the game but rather wait 1 year for used at sub 20 will just pirate the games. Now when you can find gems for 5-15 why pirate and lose online?

What if we remove the mandatory bundled software of 360? U act like Nintendo is the only one to bundle games. I can probably find over 50 games that had bundles on 360 at some point.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

DonFerrari said:
Mr Puggsly said:
Materia-Blade said:

You said gamepad, wiimote + nunchuck is one. the pro controller is for the extra buttons.

Now to some points: there's no such thing as "casual" game. dismissing a game as "casual" is very imature. ya know, fps was a new genre once, will you consider it casual? the wii brought new kinds of play that were enjoyed by new and old gamers. on top of that, all kinds of games sold well to great on the wii. saying things like "The people that enjoyed core games on Wii declined quickly" is beyond wrong. it's pure downplaying. you aren't giving me facts, facts would be how wii had great software sales while software kept being released on it.

No, the Pro Controller is dual joystick and not motion based. The Wiimote and Nunchuck often utilize motion. Again, you're just wrong.

I'm not downplaying the Wii, I'm telling you why it went from mega popular to fading into obscurity rather quickly when compared to its competitors. The Wii U is struggling because the Wii was simply a fad. The audience Wii acquired were mostly just casuals that wanted something cool at the moment. The Wii owners that had a greater interest in gaming simply went to a console with superior core lineups like Xbox and Playstation.

For the record, I don't dislike the Wii and I still mine along with a collection of game. I think it was a fine machine with a respectable library. But the Wii audience was mostly casuals that wanted the cool new device. The audience for Wii went away quickly because it was mostly hype. It was a very successful platform for shovelware because the audience was generally not avid gamers.


And if we remove the mandatory bundled sw of Wii from sw total the attach ratio would be dangerously approaching 1/2 of X360, which again shows how it dropped hard and fast. For the more hacked excuse you see how the lack of foresight of Nintendo was big. X360 is quite easy to mod, but you lose MP so the strong online helped a lot. Also game price, Nintendo hold price for far too long, so people that would never pay 60 on the game but rather wait 1 year for used at sub 20 will just pirate the games. Now when you can find gems for 5-15 why pirate and lose online?

"And if we remove the mandatory bundled sw of Wii from sw total the attach ratio would be dangerously approaching 1/2 of X360, which again shows how it dropped hard and fast."

I'm sincerely interested, where did you get that from? and even if it were true, how would that relate to dropping fast?

VG chartz has wii software at 900 million vs x360 software at 924 million. Virtual tie.

http://www.vgchartz.com/gamedb/?page=1&results=1000&name=&platform=Wii&minSales=0&publisher=&genre=&sort=GL

http://www.vgchartz.com/gamedb/?page=1&results=1000&name=&platform=X360&minSales=0&publisher=&genre=&sort=GL

Wii sports would have sold 30m+ without the bundle, as japan proves. That gives you 850m wii software vs 900m x360 software (no bundle, remember?)

Now, are you gonna say 850m is almost half of 900m?



Around the Network
S.T.A.G.E. said:
shenlong213 said:
Nope, the industry would be more peace

Really? Nintendo won their case but they were involved in shady tactics to stay ahead of the competition before the Playstation arrived.
http://articles.latimes.com/1992-05-02/business/fi-1361_1_video-game-market


http://neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=701305

According to this, NES had shipped a whopping 200,000 units in North America by August 1986 or around the time Atari 7800 & Sega Master System released. If 3rd parties really felt they were being mistreated than they could have easily developed games for those consoles instead, it's not like NES was some huge force when they released.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

DonFerrari said:

There is no way to tell what would happen if Nintendo hadn't entered the fray in the 80's but what we can be sure is that it would have taken longer, if there would be a bigger crash or if things would be better in the end we can't be sure... but in the case of Sony, seeing how many failed and that no one else tried before MS entered and also didn't really suceed at first I don't think anyone else would make the same success. 

You're making assumptions on what could have happened using what did happen as your only basis.  You can't do that.  Remove Sony from the equation, since that is the entire basis of the op.  Put another CD-based platform on the market now since not only Nintendo would have developed one eventually, but Sega already had one.  Now, remove the $299 PlayStation completely from your thinking which is what caused Sega to make so many missteps with their Saturn launch.  Someone is going to benefit from all of that 3rd Party software I mentioned.  Someone earlier in this thread claimed that franchises like Final Fantasy, Tomb Raider, and Metal Gear Solid wouldn't have existed without the PlayStation, but it's completely the other way around.  The PlayStation succeeded in large part, because they were the default beneficiary of all that 3rd Party support.  Remove the PlayStation from the playing field as the op suggests, and what happens to those games/franchises?  Do they just disappear into thin air?  No.  They appear on whatever else would have been the dominant console of the 5th generation.  Why?  Because they weren't developed by Sony in the first place!  Zorg1000 clearly showed in his posts that the video game userbase was not decreasing gen over gen before Sony arrived.  It was increasing.  Just because the op only cares to show how Nintendo was losing market share gen over gen, doesn't mean the home console market as a whole was shrinking.  That's selective thinking.  You have to look at the industry as a whole.  And to pretend that Square, Konami, etc. would not have released their flagship titles somewhere else just because the PlayStation didn't exist is even more representative of selective thinking. 

As for others tried and failed, you are still narrow-mindedly thinking it terms of only what happened, instead of what could have happened.  TurboGraphx-16 was doomed by no 3rd Party support.  Atari Jaguar was also doomed by lack of 3rd Party support (and difficult to develop for which didn't help).  SNK released NeoGeo gold at $649, which is the equivalent of over $1,000 today.  Even the silver version at $399 was too expensive for it's day when SNES and Genesis were both under $200.  Panasonic put a $700 3DO on the market, so also no surprise that it failed.  That would be the equivalent of releasing a $1,143 console today.  Yeah, that's not going to succeed in any generation.  Look how much marketshare Sony lost from their PS2 when they tried releasing a $600 PS3 onto the market (that's the gen that Sony lost me as a consumer for example).  Barring the consoles that priced themselves out of the market from consideration, now add the 3rd party support Sony enjoyed to one of the other consoles.  Somebody was going to benefit from those titles as I previously mentioned.  Either Sega Saturn would have done a great deal better.  Atari could have enjoyed a resurgence since 3rd party's were on the fence about producing titles for Jaguar, preferring to wait and see if it would build up a strong userbase (which is coincidentally the exact same pitfall the Wii U fell into this gen for comparison).  Subtract the PlayStation from the market and maybe the Jaguar's userbase grows at a sufficient pace to entice 3rd partys to jump on board. 

Am I saying Jaguar, Saturn, or another unreleased console would have sold 100 million units?  Not per se.  Because that's not what the op asked.  He asked if the absence of the PlayStation would have led the industry to another crisis.  I'm saying it wouldn't for the reasons I laid out.  The industry was already increasing gen over gen as has been illustrated elsewhere in this thread.  And, somebody else would have benefitted from all that 3rd party support that the PlayStation enjoyed.  You are pretending that there is NO scenario where the console market could have thrived without the existence of the Sony PlayStation.  There are always other scenarios.  It's like saying the way World War II played out is the ONLY way World War II could have possibly ended.  That would be ridiculously ignorant and pig-headed.  Hitler could have made other decisions that would have drastically altered the course of the war.  Germany could have attacked Great Britain when they had the chance.  Historians have long since admitted that Britain's costline was woefully under-defended at the time.  They also acknowledge that the Luftwaffe's switch from strategic bombing to terror bombing also was a blunder on Hitler's part.  Germany could have not attacked the Soviet Union opening themselves up to a 2-front war when they did.  There's a reason there are so many "What if?" novels exist out there.  Just because something did happen, doesn't make it the only way it EVER could have happened.  Yours, the op, and others here are claiming that only Sony could have kept the video game industry expanding (when it was clearly expanding before their entry into the marketplace); and that's just not the case.



zorg1000 said:
DonFerrari said:


And if we remove the mandatory bundled sw of Wii from sw total the attach ratio would be dangerously approaching 1/2 of X360, which again shows how it dropped hard and fast. For the more hacked excuse you see how the lack of foresight of Nintendo was big. X360 is quite easy to mod, but you lose MP so the strong online helped a lot. Also game price, Nintendo hold price for far too long, so people that would never pay 60 on the game but rather wait 1 year for used at sub 20 will just pirate the games. Now when you can find gems for 5-15 why pirate and lose online?

What if we remove the mandatory bundled software of 360? U act like Nintendo is the only one to bundle games. I can probably find over 50 games that had bundles on 360 at some point.

Uhnnnnnnnnn find me how many games were bundled for 50% of the consoles for 0 dollars. Wii had 2 games for free for a long time. So it would be like 750M on a 102M userbase against 950M on a 85M userbase. For me that is quite the gap, while x360 keep selling much more sw than Wii.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Materia-Blade said:
DonFerrari said:


And if we remove the mandatory bundled sw of Wii from sw total the attach ratio would be dangerously approaching 1/2 of X360, which again shows how it dropped hard and fast. For the more hacked excuse you see how the lack of foresight of Nintendo was big. X360 is quite easy to mod, but you lose MP so the strong online helped a lot. Also game price, Nintendo hold price for far too long, so people that would never pay 60 on the game but rather wait 1 year for used at sub 20 will just pirate the games. Now when you can find gems for 5-15 why pirate and lose online?

"And if we remove the mandatory bundled sw of Wii from sw total the attach ratio would be dangerously approaching 1/2 of X360, which again shows how it dropped hard and fast."

I'm sincerely interested, where did you get that from? and even if it were true, how would that relate to dropping fast?

VG chartz has wii software at 900 million vs x360 software at 924 million. Virtual tie.

http://www.vgchartz.com/gamedb/?page=1&results=1000&name=&platform=Wii&minSales=0&publisher=&genre=&sort=GL

http://www.vgchartz.com/gamedb/?page=1&results=1000&name=&platform=X360&minSales=0&publisher=&genre=&sort=GL

Wii sports would have sold 30m+ without the bundle, as japan proves. That gives you 850m wii software vs 900m x360 software (no bundle, remember?)

Now, are you gonna say 850m is almost half of 900m?

See answer to zorg



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Mandalore76 said:
DonFerrari said:

There is no way to tell what would happen if Nintendo hadn't entered the fray in the 80's but what we can be sure is that it would have taken longer, if there would be a bigger crash or if things would be better in the end we can't be sure... but in the case of Sony, seeing how many failed and that no one else tried before MS entered and also didn't really suceed at first I don't think anyone else would make the same success. 

You're making assumptions on what could have happened using what did happen as your only basis.  You can't do that.  Remove Sony from the equation, since that is the entire basis of the op.  Put another CD-based platform on the market now since not only Nintendo would have developed one eventually, but Sega already had one.  Now, remove the $299 PlayStation completely from your thinking which is what caused Sega to make so many missteps with their Saturn launch.  Someone is going to benefit from all of that 3rd Party software I mentioned.  Someone earlier in this thread claimed that franchises like Final Fantasy, Tomb Raider, and Metal Gear Solid wouldn't have existed without the PlayStation, but it's completely the other way around.  The PlayStation succeeded in large part, because they were the default beneficiary of all that 3rd Party support.  Remove the PlayStation from the playing field as the op suggests, and what happens to those games/franchises?  Do they just disappear into thin air?  No.  They appear on whatever else would have been the dominant console of the 5th generation.  Why?  Because they weren't developed by Sony in the first place!  Zorg1000 clearly showed in his posts that the video game userbase was not decreasing gen over gen before Sony arrived.  It was increasing.  Just because the op only cares to show how Nintendo was losing market share gen over gen, doesn't mean the home console market as a whole was shrinking.  That's selective thinking.  You have to look at the industry as a whole.  And to pretend that Square, Konami, etc. would not have released their flagship titles somewhere else just because the PlayStation didn't exist is even more representative of selective thinking. 

As for others tried and failed, you are still narrow-mindedly thinking it terms of only what happened, instead of what could have happened.  TurboGraphx-16 was doomed by no 3rd Party support.  Atari Jaguar was also doomed by lack of 3rd Party support (and difficult to develop for which didn't help).  SNK released NeoGeo gold at $649, which is the equivalent of over $1,000 today.  Even the silver version at $399 was too expensive for it's day when SNES and Genesis were both under $200.  Panasonic put a $700 3DO on the market, so also no surprise that it failed.  That would be the equivalent of releasing a $1,143 console today.  Yeah, that's not going to succeed in any generation.  Look how much marketshare Sony lost from their PS2 when they tried releasing a $600 PS3 onto the market (that's the gen that Sony lost me as a consumer for example).  Barring the consoles that priced themselves out of the market from consideration, now add the 3rd party support Sony enjoyed to one of the other consoles.  Somebody was going to benefit from those titles as I previously mentioned.  Either Sega Saturn would have done a great deal better.  Atari could have enjoyed a resurgence since 3rd party's were on the fence about producing titles for Jaguar, preferring to wait and see if it would build up a strong userbase (which is coincidentally the exact same pitfall the Wii U fell into this gen for comparison).  Subtract the PlayStation from the market and maybe the Jaguar's userbase grows at a sufficient pace to entice 3rd partys to jump on board. 

Am I saying Jaguar, Saturn, or another unreleased console would have sold 100 million units?  Not per se.  Because that's not what the op asked.  He asked if the absence of the PlayStation would have led the industry to another crisis.  I'm saying it wouldn't for the reasons I laid out.  The industry was already increasing gen over gen as has been illustrated elsewhere in this thread.  And, somebody else would have benefitted from all that 3rd party support that the PlayStation enjoyed.  You are pretending that there is NO scenario where the console market could have thrived without the existence of the Sony PlayStation.  There are always other scenarios.  It's like saying the way World War II played out is the ONLY way World War II could have possibly ended.  That would be ridiculously ignorant and pig-headed.  Hitler could have made other decisions that would have drastically altered the course of the war.  Germany could have attacked Great Britain when they had the chance.  Historians have long since admitted that Britain's costline was woefully under-defended at the time.  They also acknowledge that the Luftwaffe's switch from strategic bombing to terror bombing also was a blunder on Hitler's part.  Germany could have not attacked the Soviet Union opening themselves up to a 2-front war when they did.  There's a reason there are so many "What if?" novels exist out there.  Just because something did happen, doesn't make it the only way it EVER could have happened.  Yours, the op, and others here are claiming that only Sony could have kept the video game industry expanding (when it was clearly expanding before their entry into the marketplace); and that's just not the case.

List the companies that remained and would do it. Why would they try Sony strategy instead of the same strategy the other 10 took? Why would sega and Nintendo do different than they done if were already doing those mistakes before Sony. And seeing their marketplace and how newcomers fared so far it could be a 30% smaller gen so maybe some of those games wouldn't See the light of the day because of lack of public and demographic.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."