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Forums - Nintendo - Fire Emblem's new anime direction (RANT)

Xxain said:
Nem said:


If you say so. But i do believe there is a level of arrogance in westerners saying how Japanese should do the art on their games.

If you dont like it, skip the game? Its not like they are going to change because of western audiences. Just like the Tales of series... they are games aimed at japanese audiences. You are fighting a losing battle.

The Tales series is aimed solely at Japan and those Japanese are in the that "level" of anime. Hideo Baba also stated Tales games are never developed with intention to sell overseas. If it happens it happens

The basic point is that liking anime should NOT be a requirement in enjoying a Japanese game. Japanaese developers, specifically those that work on JRG's are putting JRPG's in this box and it doesn't need to be there. Grandia, Xenogears, Chrono trigger are just a few of JRPG's that use a more obvious anime direction, but gamers around the world have enjoyed them regardless if their anime fans or not. A series like Fire Emblem, or any other Global JRPG series (developed with intention of selling overseas) stay away this moe, waifu, whatever anime crap.

Im not even touch on how chosing this anime effects the actual game. Harder to sum up. 

Fire Emblem was made with the intention of being released worldwide? Is that why the first 6 games and the 11th game were never released overseas?



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DerpSandwich said:

I actually enjoyed the demo quite a lot, but all this we're talking about has kept me from taking the plunge.  If I'm going to invest so much time into a story I want to actually care about it.  Egh....maybe someday if I can get it cheap I'll give it a shot, though it hasn't gone down a cent since its release.


Its not even nearly as bad as Mr. Tiger Tiger makes it sound. In fact, it doesn't even really feel overly Japanese. The tone of many of the character interactions are fairly light, but I think it very rarely ventures into anything that would be considered cringeworthy and when it does, I think it does so as a joke. Overall, the gameplay is the main strength of the game and it is amazing, the story as a whole is interesting and carries you along but isn't earth shattering and the character interactions are fun and light for most of the characters.

I think the majority of people would say that the interactions range between innocuous to funny to endearing. Certainly nothing intrusive enough to push you away from an absolutely fantastic game if the gameplay elements sound like they would interest you. Since you enjoyed the demo, I would heavily encourage you to actually try the game for yourself.



Airaku said:
XanderXT said:
Airaku said:

I agree on the art style bit to some extent. Older Japanese art styles looked much more realistic, Zelda is a prime example of this. This is very much the same case for anime today. I had some favorite animes growing up but when I look at anything that came out in the last decade it seems so simplistic to me. Some of it makes me want to take ice cream scoopers and rip my eyes out -_- jk but no seriously! For me, I personally find Fire Emblem's art style very mature by todays standards of anime. A decade ago I may have given a different answer but I would actually argue that Fire Emblem's cut scenes is worlds away better than a lot of animes today. For example animes like Bleach and One Piece are far to simplistic and lack details (and I love the One Piece manga!!!!). This is of course personal tastes but I find that there are much more details and facial expressions than a lot of recent anime styles. although sometimes it can be over used in the games, but I think they do that because the characters are in still frames when they talk their dialogue. On the subject of dialogue, I found that Awakening was great at parts and extremely weak and childish at other parts.

As for the whole characters dying bit, I really can't argue much on that for two reasons. One, in Awakening I play it in classic mode so when someone dies they die! Two, I'm that jackass that literally powers off the system when someone dies regardless of the game I'm playing. Why don't I play casual then? Simply because it isn't as intense and it forces me to not take risks and play strategically as well as double check all my moves. My mistakes are not forgiven and I need to replay the level or at least to my last save point.

Oh you will NOT believe the kinky stuff Tharja does. It is absolutely unreal and you are missing out. Her magic literally amplifies everything and she is always in control, her voodoo bullsh!t is so OP you have no sense of freewill and are forced to complete submission. So technically speaking it's "50 shades of Tharja". Hell she even manifests this OP dark whip!

PS. The proper name for Robin is actually "The Avatar". I have no idea why they didn't use that name for Super Smash Bros. It seems like a silly mistake on their end....

Robin is the default name in Awakening, remember?

Yes that is true but "The Avatar" is the more appropriate name. Robin is just used as an unisex name for the default name in the North American version only. In the same sense you could argue the name is "officially" Reflet or even Daraen. The Avatar has a different unisex name in every region, but is referred to as the Avatar in all regions. It isn't incorrect to refer him/her as Robin, Daraen, or Reflet but The Avatar is more fitting. I kind of wished they went with that name in Super Smash Bros to avoid confusion. The name "The Avatar" might be a little weird and more confusing in some ways. When they revealed the name Robin in the Smash Bros trailer my first reaction was "WTF"?

http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Avatar_(Awakening)

Robin, Rufure, and Reflet are much better names in my opinion.



XanderXT said:
Airaku said:

 

Yes that is true but "The Avatar" is the more appropriate name. Robin is just used as an unisex name for the default name in the North American version only. In the same sense you could argue the name is "officially" Reflet or even Daraen. The Avatar has a different unisex name in every region, but is referred to as the Avatar in all regions. It isn't incorrect to refer him/her as Robin, Daraen, or Reflet but The Avatar is more fitting. I kind of wished they went with that name in Super Smash Bros to avoid confusion. The name "The Avatar" might be a little weird and more confusing in some ways. When they revealed the name Robin in the Smash Bros trailer my first reaction was "WTF"?

http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Avatar_(Awakening)



Robin, Rufure, and Refelt are much better names in my opinion.


I guess each to their own. I suppose they are actual names but even still I feel that The Avatar is much more applicable name to the character. That is literally what the character is in both the sense of the player and the sense of being a vessel.




sundin13 said:
DerpSandwich said:

I actually enjoyed the demo quite a lot, but all this we're talking about has kept me from taking the plunge.  If I'm going to invest so much time into a story I want to actually care about it.  Egh....maybe someday if I can get it cheap I'll give it a shot, though it hasn't gone down a cent since its release.


Its not even nearly as bad as Mr. Tiger Tiger makes it sound. In fact, it doesn't even really feel overly Japanese. The tone of many of the character interactions are fairly light, but I think it very rarely ventures into anything that would be considered cringeworthy and when it does, I think it does so as a joke. Overall, the gameplay is the main strength of the game and it is amazing, the story as a whole is interesting and carries you along but isn't earth shattering and the character interactions are fun and light for most of the characters.

I think the majority of people would say that the interactions range between innocuous to funny to endearing. Certainly nothing intrusive enough to push you away from an absolutely fantastic game if the gameplay elements sound like they would interest you. Since you enjoyed the demo, I would heavily encourage you to actually try the game for yourself.

I probably will someday.  From what I've seen it's less on the annoying side and more on the "blah" side, which I guess could be considered a strength for a JRPG.  XD



Currently playing:

Bloodbath Paddy Wagon Ultra 9

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Hiku said:

"The Avatar" isn't a name though. It's a title, similar to "Shujinko" (Protagonist/Main Character) in Persona.
They do have some characters that go by their title in Smash though, such as Wii Fit Trainer and Villager. But that seems to only be the case for characters who don't have an officially given name. In the case of the Avatar, Intelligent Systems gave him/her the name Robin/Reflet, but outside of the game. Just like Atlus named the main protagonists of the Persona games, also outside of the main game.

To have different names in different regions isn't uncommon either. Toad is called Kinopio in Japan, Greninja is Gekkouga, Rosalina & Luma are Rosetta & Chiko, etc.

I wouldn't mind if he/she was called Avatar in Smash though, but I still prefer an actual name. Because in Smash, the character's personality is no longer partially a reflection of the player and their choices, but rather a character in its own right with an already established personality.

The main characters of the Persona series also remain nameless, until they appear in anime/manga or side games like Persona 4 Ultimax, where their personality is no longer a reflection of the player.

I suppose it is a matter of perspective but you do have a very compelling point. I just find it weird how the name Robin was not apparent until the release of Smash Bros. Before then I only knew him/her as the Avatar and frankly so did everyone else I talked to about the game. That is kind of the reason why I tend to shy away from the name Robin. Where as Link you actually see his name is Link before you change it. Even before he was an established character that we know and love today. Yes I am aware as why his name was specifically Link back in the day and that name fits perfectly with his character as he evolved in other ways. Robin on the other hand really felt more of a Avatar and a Vessel and that is how I interpreted Nintendo pushing him/her in Awakening.

I am aware that regions use name changes all the time. Heck Bowser is actually just Koopa or King Koopa in Japan. I used to have fun changing the language settings on Smash Bros back in the day to see all of the changes in the names.




sundin13 said:
ToraTiger said:
sundin13 said:


The point is fairly silly as like I said, they took something hollow and filled it. Kid Icarus was overall lacking personality and they filled it. Metroid's story was generally hollow and they filled it (although the writing and the boxes they were written into severely harmed the final product). In these two cases, it is simply a Japanese company injecting personality into works and you complaining because anime.

I don't really see your conclusion of this argument other than "anime is bad and it should stay out of my games".

You think the Metroid and Kid Icarus creators intended for their games to be turned into chiki centric anime inspired bland stories?  I dont know what you mean by the 2 games lacking in personalty, metroid had plenty of official backstory and plot and so did kid  icarus, and they existed without the need of filling their stories with hallow anime tropes.

First of all, what the hell does chiki mean? The only context I've ever seen that used in is meaning "chicken", but apparently it means "acquaintance", but I highly doubt that is what you mean.

Second, I think once again you are confusing your (seeming) xenophobia for anything of substance. There is nothing wrong with the story of Kid Icarus Uprising. It was entertaing and fun and quite different. It was certainly not adherent to "anime" tropes or pandering to otaku, and like I said, it was more similar in many ways to saturday morning cartoons than anime. Additionally, the story stayed consistently interesting, extremely well written, all of the characters were fun and it all lent itself to an amazing experience. Bland? Bullshit.

Third, have you played the first two Kid Icarus games? They were literally just gameplay with some goofy off the wall humor added on. Remember the Eggplant wizard? I don't think we are missing out on some deep sprawling narrative when the series moved to...well goofy off the wall humor.

As for Metroid, I would argue that none of that games flaws came from anything related to anime. The flaws were largely:
a) overwriting the characters: There was too much writing put into many areas where they should have went with silence or a more subdued tone. This was largely because they focused more on story than previous installments. The story however, was far from a typical anime story and I believe that the characters all stayed away from tropes. They weren't extremely deep and the writing was questionable, but neither of these things have anything to do with your point. Additionally, Samus was based off of the precedent set by previous games. The personality of Samus was already set long before Other M (see Metroid Fusion), and this personality once again has nothing to do with anime.
b) Trying to fill in nonsensical gaps: Many things in the gameplay of metroid just simply don't make sense. The most notable of these is the loss of powers at the begining of every game. The writers wanted to keep this gameplay pillar but write it into the game, which caused problems because no matter how you look at it, this doesn't make sense. The solution the writers came up with was far from elegant, but once again has absolutely nothing to do with anime.

Fourth, the fact that you are pulling Fire Emblem, Kid Icarus and Metroid all under the same umbrella elucidates one of the key problems with your point. These game are all hugely different in style, tone, writing, characterization, etc and yet you decide to refer to them all as "anime" as if that actually made sense. Anime is a medium, not a style or a tone. There is a huge variety of anime, and while your point made some semblance of sense at the beginning when you were just talking about Fire Emblem, the more your broaden it, the more it falls apart.

If you want to criticize moe culture, go ahead, but none of these three franchises demonstrate the qualities inherent to that.

If you want to criticize weak writing or characterization, go ahead, but don't attribute it to any sort of "japanification" or "animification", because you just don't have the strongest argument to make to correlate the two things or even really explain your point of view in any way that doesn't sound intensely xenophobic.

I might be spelling it wrong, but Chiki is similar to a word in Japanese that means friendly and cutesy.  That is what I mean when I said that.

And I stand by my initials statements, they didnt have to mordernize/animize the art like that, and make it lose the originality that the NES and GB game had, the story and writing is very different from the japanese version, so of course that is partially why it doesn't come off that way, Nintendo  likely knew that the original japanese-y plot would scare away westerners who aren't interested/repelled by that culture, so they gave them free reign on the writing.  I can speak Japanese midly well (Was dating a japanese chick for 3 years) and looking  through KI U japanese videos I can confirm that anyone with a little bit of Japanese experience would know how easternized the plot was originially.

The story and characters did come off as a bit bland for me in some spots, I loved the writing for the villans but Pit's typical small young hero bravado and Palutena's excessive smarts was a bit bland in my opinion, and what makes it worst is that they were literally the main characters and 70 percent of the dialog.  Viridi was kinda okay I guess.  I played the first 2, and I like the style and tone of them, as well as the concept art. 

Not being Xenophobic here, but excessively eastern (japanese) stories tend to suck, and suck just as much as excessively western stories (G.I Joe, Gears of War, ect) The story and characterization in other m was typical corny japanese narrative.  Not saying all japanese narrative is bad and cheesy, but Other M was literally the equalient of a cliche Michael Bay film with Megan Fox showing her boobs, explosions, and car chases.  I don't think they were akin to mainstream popular anime, but Samus' weak strong girl persona is so typical of a Japanese story.  Also Samus in Fusion is nothing at all like she is in Other M.  Hell Samus barely had any deep characterization up until other M, which to me is better than turning her into a weakling of a woman.  How doesn't it make sense how she loses her powers?  Her weapons/armors get damaged and they go offline, that is usually the reason 80 percent of the time.  Way better than an old wrinkley white guy telling her when she can and cant use the grapple beam.  That system was so much fail, and why would a badass like Samus need a man's authorization to use her tools? lol

I refer to them as anime because they adhere to many of the tropes of anime, just like you can call kid Icarus cartoonish.  They use anime cliches and plotpoints for their stories, as well as anime styled art for the presentation.

And no, I'm not saying it's moe, my point is they are taking their core franchise which were developed mostly in a western style (See Zelda, Mario, thank god they haven't gone down the same route) and turning them easterize, which not only kills the tone of the originals in comparison but they also have the nerve to use cliches and predicable tropes that you would find in an anime.



3DS I.D : 3282-2755-4646

I make bad threads.  

SSB really went downhill after Melee....

Manlet Crew

sundin13 said:
DerpSandwich said:

I actually enjoyed the demo quite a lot, but all this we're talking about has kept me from taking the plunge.  If I'm going to invest so much time into a story I want to actually care about it.  Egh....maybe someday if I can get it cheap I'll give it a shot, though it hasn't gone down a cent since its release.


Its not even nearly as bad as Mr. Tiger Tiger makes it sound. In fact, it doesn't even really feel overly Japanese. The tone of many of the character interactions are fairly light, but I think it very rarely ventures into anything that would be considered cringeworthy and when it does, I think it does so as a joke. Overall, the gameplay is the main strength of the game and it is amazing, the story as a whole is interesting and carries you along but isn't earth shattering and the character interactions are fun and light for most of the characters.

I think the majority of people would say that the interactions range between innocuous to funny to endearing. Certainly nothing intrusive enough to push you away from an absolutely fantastic game if the gameplay elements sound like they would interest you. Since you enjoyed the demo, I would heavily encourage you to actually try the game for yourself.

I got a challenge for you.  

1. Charge your 3DS.

2. Put in Awakening.

3.  Start game and load up a save with all the characters still alive

4. Go to a shop.

5. Look at everyone's buying comment when you're buying weapons/items for them.   

I promise you I can, and anyone remotely familar with anime can see what cliche trope the characters have, and name 5+ characters in other popular animes with even similar appearance and design just by reading their comment.  Lissa is the typical girly girl, Maribelle is typical rich girl, Vaike is typical tough guy, Lon'qu is typical tough hard guy with a small soft spot ect.ect.

You can literally tell everything about them and how they will react to eachother just by reading 7-10 words of their dialog, and some case much less.  If that isn't one dimesional weak characterization than I dont know what is. 



3DS I.D : 3282-2755-4646

I make bad threads.  

SSB really went downhill after Melee....

Manlet Crew

DerpSandwich said:
sundin13 said:
DerpSandwich said:

I actually enjoyed the demo quite a lot, but all this we're talking about has kept me from taking the plunge.  If I'm going to invest so much time into a story I want to actually care about it.  Egh....maybe someday if I can get it cheap I'll give it a shot, though it hasn't gone down a cent since its release.


Its not even nearly as bad as Mr. Tiger Tiger makes it sound. In fact, it doesn't even really feel overly Japanese. The tone of many of the character interactions are fairly light, but I think it very rarely ventures into anything that would be considered cringeworthy and when it does, I think it does so as a joke. Overall, the gameplay is the main strength of the game and it is amazing, the story as a whole is interesting and carries you along but isn't earth shattering and the character interactions are fun and light for most of the characters.

I think the majority of people would say that the interactions range between innocuous to funny to endearing. Certainly nothing intrusive enough to push you away from an absolutely fantastic game if the gameplay elements sound like they would interest you. Since you enjoyed the demo, I would heavily encourage you to actually try the game for yourself.

I probably will someday.  From what I've seen it's less on the annoying side and more on the "blah" side, which I guess could be considered a strength for a JRPG.  XD


Sorry Mr. Sundin-Sama, I can confirm that me and this guy see things similarly.  I highly doubt he would like the characters and setting in awakening.  

In the game's defense, it's still a great game, and has awesome graphics and music, so I would say its worth the buy considering how little bit of sh!t there is to play on 3ds



3DS I.D : 3282-2755-4646

I make bad threads.  

SSB really went downhill after Melee....

Manlet Crew

ToraTiger said:

I might be spelling it wrong, but Chiki is similar to a word in Japanese that means friendly and cutesy.  That is what I mean when I said that.

And I stand by my initials statements, they didnt have to mordernize/animize the art like that, and make it lose the originality that the NES and GB game had, the story and writing is very different from the japanese version, so of course that is partially why it doesn't come off that way, Nintendo  likely knew that the original japanese-y plot would scare away westerners who aren't interested/repelled by that culture, so they gave them free reign on the writing.  I can speak Japanese midly well (Was dating a japanese chick for 3 years) and looking  through KI U japanese videos I can confirm that anyone with a little bit of Japanese experience would know how easternized the plot was originially.

The story and characters did come off as a bit bland for me in some spots, I loved the writing for the villans but Pit's typical small young hero bravado and Palutena's excessive smarts was a bit bland in my opinion, and what makes it worst is that they were literally the main characters and 70 percent of the dialog.  Viridi was kinda okay I guess.  I played the first 2, and I like the style and tone of them, as well as the concept art. 

Not being Xenophobic here, but excessively eastern (japanese) stories tend to suck, and suck just as much as excessively western stories (G.I Joe, Gears of War, ect) The story and characterization in other m was typical corny japanese narrative.  Not saying all japanese narrative is bad and cheesy, but Other M was literally the equalient of a cliche Michael Bay film with Megan Fox showing her boobs, explosions, and car chases.  I don't think they were akin to mainstream popular anime, but Samus' weak strong girl persona is so typical of a Japanese story.  Also Samus in Fusion is nothing at all like she is in Other M.  Hell Samus barely had any deep characterization up until other M, which to me is better than turning her into a weakling of a woman.  How doesn't it make sense how she loses her powers?  Her weapons/armors get damaged and they go offline, that is usually the reason 80 percent of the time.  Way better than an old wrinkley white guy telling her when she can and cant use the grapple beam.  That system was so much fail, and why would a badass like Samus need a man's authorization to use her tools? lol

I refer to them as anime because they adhere to many of the tropes of anime, just like you can call kid Icarus cartoonish.  They use anime cliches and plotpoints for their stories, as well as anime styled art for the presentation.

And no, I'm not saying it's moe, my point is they are taking their core franchise which were developed mostly in a western style (See Zelda, Mario, thank god they haven't gone down the same route) and turning them easterize, which not only kills the tone of the originals in comparison but they also have the nerve to use cliches and predicable tropes that you would find in an anime.


-Ah, the word is chibi, which is a style neither Fire Emblem, Metroid nor Kid Icarus conform to.

-...Why would you go digging into the Japanese version to find faults in the non-Japanese version? That doesn't make any sense. Who cares if the Japanese version is too Japanese? If the localization is good enough that shouldn't be a problem and IT WASNT.

-Your criticisms of KI: U are so light that they might just float away. And once again, they have nothing to do with anime.

-Did....did you even read anything I said about Other M? You didn't did you....Well, not much point arguing then. I will just restate my thesis. In bold and underlined this time. Your criticisms of both Other M and Kid Icarus Uprising have absolutely nothing to do with any sort of Japanification or Animification of the games. They are simply increadibly banal remarks about writing in video games. If you have problems with story or characterizations, fine, but don't act like they are somehow tied to anime in any way whatsoever.

-Theres only so many ways that I can say that you are fundamentally wrong. You like western media. Congrats. We have tons of other western media. No need to complain that every single piece of media that exists doesn't fit your specific tastes. That is what this boils down to. You don't personally like it. That is all the substance your argument has and the more you say, the clearer it is that you are letting your personal biases seep into this discussion. The fact that there are so few similarities in tone, characterization and style between Other M, Uprising and Awakening, despite you trying to make them out to all be identical, make this clear.

-Also worth noting, that I wouldn't say that any of these three franchises are excessively Western at their core. Both Kid Icarus and Fire Emblem were much more Eastern in their early days, although more reminiscent of 90's anime/manga. Metroid had a slightly more Western tone, however there were still many ways in which it felt like a product of Japan excluding the Metroid Prime series. An argument could certainly be made that the Prime series was much more of a departure than Other M was (regardless of quality). At the end of the day, they are a cultural product of Japan, just like western media is a culture product of the west. You will see tropes to some degree in cultural products, especially ones where story and characters are not the primary focus like (most) video games.

Get over it or move on.

ToraTiger said:

I got a challenge for you.  

1. Charge your 3DS.

2. Put in Awakening.

3.  Start game and load up a save with all the characters still alive

4. Go to a shop.

5. Look at everyone's buying comment when you're buying weapons/items for them.   

I promise you I can, and anyone remotely familar with anime can see what cliche trope the characters have, and name 5+ characters in other popular animes with even similar appearance and design just by reading their comment.  Lissa is the typical girly girl, Maribelle is typical rich girl, Vaike is typical tough guy, Lon'qu is typical tough hard guy with a small soft spot ect.ect.

You can literally tell everything about them and how they will react to eachother just by reading 7-10 words of their dialog, and some case much less.  If that isn't one dimesional weak characterization than I dont know what is. 


a) My statement wasn't about character depth, it was about tone.
b) Pretty much any character can be simplified.
c) Despite the simplicity of the characters, the writers of Awakening do a lot with them, through building relationships that are endearing and using dialogue that is simply well written and fun to read.
d) Most of those tropes aren't anime specific. "Rich girl" isn't an anime trope. Its just a trope. Theres not really anything "anime" about it. That trope exists in virtually all media featuring fictional characters.

EDIT: If your topic was essentially "I don't like the focus of Fire Emblem's story moving away from the main path with a few well developed characters and towards a larger cast with characters with less apparent depth", I would have stopped this discussion after the conversation I had with Rol. That is a fair point of view. It is different and the character (for lack of a better word) of each character is injected in support roles and in their interactions with other characters. This makes the game different, and I am curious to see where FE: if goes with what seems like a smaller cast of characters and different mechanics. However, it is your insistence that this has anything whatsoever to do with anime that makes your point of view ridiculous, seemingly xenophobic and self centered.