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Forums - Politics - Indiana Governer signs bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers.

Aeolus451 on 27 March 2015
Wonktonodi said:
Aeolus451 said:

I can see how someone might tie in race into this but it's not about that or related to it. Those are very different from eachother. Before I say anymore, I'm completely neutral in this. I'm trying to see it as logically as possible. To me this is not a matter of right and wrong or what's politically correct.

Christianity and other religions think of homosexuality as a choice or a way of life. To them, it's a sinful lifestyle. Christians when confronted by sin or surrounded by it, will try to isolate themselves and their family from it. Hence why they want to isolate themselves from homosexuals or any other sinful people as much as possible. They simply see that lifestyle as sinful and that they should denouce it to get on the "right" path with god. 

As long as homosexuality is viewed as sin by christianity, there's no wiggle room or common ground with 'em. It's better to let them isolate themselves until they change their mind. You can't forcibly change their mind with laws or social pressure. It has to be done gradually. That's why I mentioned just relocating to a friendlier place or really just avoiding them. It's logical for most people to move from a dangerous place or community. In my opinion, it's just as logical to move from a community that doesn't want you there especially if it's the majority of 'em. I want to live in a positive environment. 

In this particular case, homosexuals should avoid the businesses that don't want them inside their businesses. That doesn't mean they should move just because of that. 

It is related though. people might as well be saying race is a sin and a life choice. how can the majority isolate themselves? Discrimination doesn't go away on its own. Sometimes people need to be forced to stop. you can't always change minds but you can change behavior.

While it's nice that you could just relocate. Most people don't have that luxury. Assuming that all people can, doesn't make them able to.


They can limit their interactions with individuals or groups.  Anybody can move if given enough time and motivation. 



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TruckOSaurus on 27 March 2015
pokymon90 said:
Ka-pi96 said:
pokymon90 said:
Isn't this more about public signs of affection? How will they honestly know you are gay? 2 men, 2 women, 1 man 1 woman, I don't like make out sessions in public.

Quite easy to tell depending on the business. Say it was a restaurant taking an anniversary booking and then 2 people of the same sex walk in, they'd know straight away wouldn't they.


In that case nothing wrong it. There will be plenty of other shops/people that will help with their anniversery.  The government shouldn't make you serve somebody you don't want to serve. I applaud Mike Pence.

If the owner doesn't approve of interracial couples, should he be allowed to turn them away too?



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The_Yoda on 27 March 2015
theprof00 said:
The_Yoda said:
theprof00 said:
daredevil.shark said:

Western world learned the word "karma" a few decades ago, when we are using this word for thousands of years. Lol. As for the "impact" of the word, I dont care. Because its not applicable for me. I havent done anything bad for anyone.

What are you so mad about?

Anyway, feel free to hold whatever beliefs you will. I think the flames you're receiving here are because people are tired of having other people's beliefs forced onto them.

But you are ok with the LGBT community forcing their beliefs on other people? This is the attidue that makes me shake my head.  People rallying so hard against something and not realizing they are doing the same thing to others that they are rallying against.

What beliefs are they forcing on others? The belief in being able to buy something at a store?

.RJ_Sizzle said:

What beliefs are they forcing? You're not born with religion, gay is biological.

 

The belief that homosexuality should be morally or socially acceptable.

 

At the bolded: Can you link me to where they have identified the gay or straight genes?

 





S.T.A.G.E. on 27 March 2015
FentonCrackshell said:
THANKS OBAMA!!!


It was a republican governor from Indiana. LOL 



Wonktonodi on 27 March 2015
sc94597 said:

1. If the cake owner needs to be involved in what they perceive to be a religious function (a wedding) then I think it is perfectly normal for them to have religious beliefs on the matter. Furthermore, having a wedding at a church isn't free, if you don't already belong to the church. It certainly is a business transaction as well, just a more covert one. The cake maker isn't just making a generic wedding cake. They need to make it specific for the couple's demands, and it must fit with the rest of the wedding, which they might view as partaking in the ceremony. I agree, I have issues with county clerks not giving mariage licenses as well. That is why I support legally-recognized gay marriage. I don't expect every person to support gay marriage though, and I realize that these things must come incremental or otherwise they'll run from them. 

2. One of the best slogans found in the LGBT movement is ,"if two people of the same sex are married it won't affect you." I stand by this slogan quite a bit. However, if we are to start forcing people to partake in the marriage (in their eyes) or lose their business, it does indeed affect those people. This creates even more fear and paranoia on the part of the anti-LGBT people, and it leads them to call their legislators to create laws like this one. The best option for us is to say, "alright, then I will take my business elsewhere and tell all of my straight friends who will be having weddings about your overly traditionalist beliefs." Instead an atmosphere was created that frightens these fundamentalists and by the power of democracy they got a less than desirable law passed, which can make things much worst for the LGBT community. 


1. Hypothiticals are fun, What if they just want a wedding cake to order? It's not the amount of involment that bothers these people it's that it's a gay wedding. Yet other instances of things that should be against their religious views don't stop them from doing business?  The popular culture anti gay religious views aren't the same as those with deep religious beleives. It's people picking and chossing parts to follow and the decrimination in the name of religion, is just trying to defend biogtry with a popular religion, not actually convictions.

The church would be where the ceremonial part takes place, they already only aloow those of that religion to take part. and being a member and being aple to used the ceremonial part isn't the same as, renting out halls from a church or other facility, those usually have prperty mangers who deal withthat anyway keeping the Church mroe seperate from the buiness side of renting out the building anyway.

2. Stupid slogan, though still acctate. It's the anti descrimination law that you should bring up though because that's the one that people were suing over. Marriage equality laws and court actions aren't the same as anti discrimanatory laws. Expecting the free market to take care of discrimination is a vaire naieve. 

 



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Wonktonodi on 27 March 2015
Aeolus451 said:
Wonktonodi said:

It is related though. people might as well be saying race is a sin and a life choice. how can the majority isolate themselves? Discrimination doesn't go away on its own. Sometimes people need to be forced to stop. you can't always change minds but you can change behavior.

While it's nice that you could just relocate. Most people don't have that luxury. Assuming that all people can, doesn't make them able to.


They can limit their interactions with individuals or groups.  Anybody can move if given enough time and motivation. 


I think pain of death shoudl be enough motivation, but once again it's not something everyone can do. Even so the don't like it just leave attitude is a terrible excuse to let people discriminate



S.T.A.G.E. on 27 March 2015
The_Yoda said:
theprof00 said:

What are you so mad about?

Anyway, feel free to hold whatever beliefs you will. I think the flames you're receiving here are because people are tired of having other people's beliefs forced onto them.

But you are ok with the LGBT community forcing their beliefs on other people? This is the attidue that makes me shake my head.  People rallying so hard against something and not realizing they are doing the same thing to others that they are rallying against.

LGBT community aren't forcing beliefs on people, they are just trying to exist in peace. Because of Christian domination and the actually belief of Christianity it makes the lives of minorities who are gay have a hard time. I can't even fathom the strength of gay people who are Christians have to deal with the verbal lashings of Christians on a daily basis and still love and believe in a god.



S.T.A.G.E. on 27 March 2015
Augen said:
zumnupy10 said:

Yes I think.

I'm a typical latin american man, mixed of portuguese and indians and I know I wouldn't be welcome in some places even in my country.  

I find that sad and unfortunate that you'd be unwelcome anywhere based on your heritage.

Yet, you would be okay with a society where the government stated that you were a second class citizen based on what you are and it openly allowed to be discriminated against?

We differ in opinion here if that is how you feel.

When European colonization and religious institution took over South America that attitude was doomed to occur. My family is from Jamaica and even went through the same thing, but our issue is more of classicism. He has a point. The way gays are treated in Jamaica comes from a deep seated religious cultural issue. The only time people are forced to face the issue is when they see that there are gay people in their family and parents even notice from when they are young.



The_Yoda on 27 March 2015
CladInShadows said:
The_Yoda said:
theprof00 said:
daredevil.shark said:

Western world learned the word "karma" a few decades ago, when we are using this word for thousands of years. Lol. As for the "impact" of the word, I dont care. Because its not applicable for me. I havent done anything bad for anyone.

What are you so mad about?

Anyway, feel free to hold whatever beliefs you will. I think the flames you're receiving here are because people are tired of having other people's beliefs forced onto them.

But you are ok with the LGBT community forcing their beliefs on other people? This is the attidue that makes me shake my head.  People rallying so hard against something and not realizing they are doing the same thing to others that they are rallying against.

Their belief is that they should have the right to exist and not be treated as lesser human beings.  That's a tad different from the belief that it's OK to discriminate against and hate members of the LGBT community.

I responded to a couple other people on this, please see that response. I think it is just up the page.



RJ_Sizzle on 27 March 2015
sc94597 said:
RJ_Sizzle said:

 You're not born with religion, gay is biological.

Being gay is much more innate than being religious, but that isn't to say there isn't a biological influence on religious beliefs as well. 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10637988

Although the transmission of religiousness has been assumed to be purely cultural, behavior genetic studies have demonstrated that genetic factors play a role in the individual differences in some religious traits. This article reviews the extant behavior genetic literature and presents new analyses from the "Virginia 30,000" on the causes of variation in religious affiliation, attitudes, and practices, and relates these to personality as construed by Eysenck. Results indicate that religious affiliation is primarily a culturally transmitted phenomenon, whereas religious attitudes and practices are moderately influenced by genetic factors. Further, Eysenck's personality traits do not mediate genetic influences on religiousness, but significant negative genetic correlations are found between church attendance and liberal sexual attitudes. Implications and possibilities for future studies are discussed.

Although all human traits are biological to an extent, anyway. We are biological beings. 

Spirituality is not in our blood, though we are biologically tuned to succumb to certain sociological functions. Humans will always form beliefs based on whether they're right or not. So, you can be born gay, but, you're not born to hate homosexuality, or pray on a carpet five times daily. Mass religious belief has to be taught, or influenced. Most societies go beyond religious text to decide what's best for society as a whole. Even non-secular nations cant adhere to theocracy 100 percent of the time, they'd never get anywhere.