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Forums - Politics Discussion - Vaccination mediatic blitz

The adverse effects reported are done by parents, I already know that some parents think that vaccines gave their kid autism so the fact that the FDA acknowledges this fact doesn't really legitimize the idea that autism and vaccines are actually related. Every study I can find says that there isn't a link.

That children that develop autism and those that don't were both vaccinated to the same frequency. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/113/2/259

That taking thimerosal out of vaccines which many blamed for autism had no effect on the rates of autism in those areas. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18180424

Basically it seems that all anyone against the idea of forced vaccines has to go with are single examples that can't be proven one way or another.

I also don't really like this concept that because measles isn't a problem in the US we shouldn't have to get vaccinated. The only reason it isn't a problem is because the bulk of the population is getting vaccinated. I'd hate to see these diseases make a resurgence if too many people in America try to take a free-ride using herd immunity. The fact that noone in the US has died from Measles is great, but don't take that to mean it's like the common cold.

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/

145700 deaths from measles in 2013 alone. Obviously without the proper medical care and vaccinations this can be a serious threat, and we have the means to cure it in our hands but some refuse to take it.

Sure not so many people died in the US (around 450 a year before the vaccine) but what about the economic issues that come from the treatment of the 3-4 million cases per year that occurred from what is now a completely preventable disease. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15106102

I get the concept that people want freedom in all things, but I think this is one of those cases where the freedom to swing your arms wildly stops at the other person's nose. The same reason you can't drink and drive because it endangers those around you parents shouldn't be able to deny their children and children around them protection from a preventable disease.



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Torillian said:
The adverse effects reported are done by parents, I already know that some parents think that vaccines gave their kid autism so the fact that the FDA acknowledges this fact doesn't really legitimize the idea that autism and vaccines are actually related. Every study I can find says that there isn't a link.

That children that develop autism and those that don't were both vaccinated to the same frequency. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/113/2/259

That taking thimerosal out of vaccines which many blamed for autism had no effect on the rates of autism in those areas. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18180424

Basically it seems that all anyone against the idea of forced vaccines has to go with are single examples that can't be proven one way or another.

I also don't really like this concept that because measles isn't a problem in the US we shouldn't have to get vaccinated. The only reason it isn't a problem is because the bulk of the population is getting vaccinated. I'd hate to see these diseases make a resurgence if too many people in America try to take a free-ride using herd immunity. The fact that noone in the US has died from Measles is great, but don't take that to mean it's like the common cold.

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/

145700 deaths from measles in 2013 alone. Obviously without the proper medical care and vaccinations this can be a serious threat, and we have the means to cure it in our hands but some refuse to take it.

Sure not so many people died in the US (around 450 a year before the vaccine) but what about the economic issues that come from the treatment of the 3-4 million cases per year that occurred from what is now a completely preventable disease. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15106102

I get the concept that people want freedom in all things, but I think this is one of those cases where the freedom to swing your arms wildly stops at the other person's nose. The same reason you can't drink and drive because it endangers those around you parents shouldn't be able to deny their children and children around them protection from a preventable disease.

Laws against shouting Bomb, or Fire in a theater, are basically the same.  Your right to free speech, is overruled by the fact that you're causing panic and an entirely unsafe situation.  Same thing here, by not vaccinating, you are creating an unsafe/harmful atmosphere for folks who cannot be vaccinated (children under the age of 1, I think, and those who have immuno deficiencies).

Well said.



Problem is, your choice doesn't just affect you. By not vaccinating, you're enforcing the consequences of your choice on other people's kids, putting them in danger as well. Every person that doesn't vaccinate lowers herd immunity, potentially placing millions of people at risk should it fall low enough.

And the mortality rate for Measles is waaaay more than "0.000015%", it was measured at 0.3%, or 3 in every 1000 victims, in the USA between 1987 and 2000. http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/189/Supplement_1/S4.full

As for whooping cough, it kills 5 in every 1000 infected infantshttp://ideas.health.vic.gov.au/bluebook/pertussis.asp

And those are the figures for first world countries; in the third world it's vastly worse.

And once again, autism and vaccines are not linked: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X14006367


Sorry My numbers are usa based and no one in the USA has died from meassles in the last 10 years but over 100 meassles vacine deaths.  http://healthimpactnews.com/2015/zero-u-s-measles-deaths-in-10-years-but-over-100-measles-vaccine-deaths-reported/

Also Iam not comparing if you have and die from it, it's actualy getting it and dieing from it.  There has been around 100 deaths a year in the USA from getting a diesease with a vacine with 320,000,000 that's 1 in 3,200,000 people. 

Millions at risk?  What about car accidents?  There's more car accidents in the USA then getting a vacinable disease.  Should we ban driving?  It puts more at risk. Do you go to work sick or to the store to get meds?  That's puting people at risk too.  You can't stop all risks.   Heard imunity?  Aren't Vacines supose to keep you from getting the diesease?  The ones that do get it are all the unvaccinated ones anyways right?  Have you heard about the overuse of antibotics.  From it now antibotics are not working when they used too because it mutated to survive and adapte.  There already seeing it happend in vacinable diseases because of vacines.  

Also high levels of Aluminum are linked to nurologicaly damage including autism.  They already started fading out amounts of mercury for the same reasons. I already gave you a link to the FDA site showing adverse effects and autism being one of them, so if it's "scientificly proven" why is it still there?  Here's another link about research on aluminum and autsim.  

http://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/14/11/2227/pdf

Also like I said don't judge something you don't understand.  I never said I haven't vaccinated my kids you just assumed.  I can still vacinate but choice what to and what not to.  I also have many friends that fully vacinate and don't at all and partail do.  Suport all of them in there decissions and don't try and persuade them one way or the other.  It's there choice.  

Now if there's a severe deadly true outbreak ( not a extremly small amount of people with no deaths) I would defently get that vacine if I didn't already have that one after researching the one with lesser of the dangerous chemicals. 



Bfriedli said:

Problem is, your choice doesn't just affect you. By not vaccinating, you're enforcing the consequences of your choice on other people's kids, putting them in danger as well. Every person that doesn't vaccinate lowers herd immunity, potentially placing millions of people at risk should it fall low enough.

And the mortality rate for Measles is waaaay more than "0.000015%", it was measured at 0.3%, or 3 in every 1000 victims, in the USA between 1987 and 2000. http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/189/Supplement_1/S4.full

As for whooping cough, it kills 5 in every 1000 infected infantshttp://ideas.health.vic.gov.au/bluebook/pertussis.asp

And those are the figures for first world countries; in the third world it's vastly worse.

And once again, autism and vaccines are not linked: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X14006367


Sorry My numbers are usa based and no one in the USA has died from meassles in the last 10 years but over 100 meassles vacine deaths.  http://healthimpactnews.com/2015/zero-u-s-measles-deaths-in-10-years-but-over-100-measles-vaccine-deaths-reported/

Also Iam not comparing if you have and die from it, it's actualy getting it and dieing from it.  There has been around 100 deaths a year in the USA from getting a diesease with a vacine with 320,000,000 that's 1 in 3,200,000 people. 

Millions at risk?  What about car accidents?  There's more car accidents in the USA then getting a vacinable disease.  Should we ban driving?  It puts more at risk. Do you go to work sick or to the store to get meds?  That's puting people at risk too.  You can't stop all risks.   Heard imunity?  Aren't Vacines supose to keep you from getting the diesease?  The ones that do get it are all the unvaccinated ones anyways right?  Have you heard about the overuse of antibotics.  From it now antibotics are not working when they used too because it mutated to survive and adapte.  There already seeing it happend in vacinable diseases because of vacines.  

Also high levels of Aluminum are linked to nurologicaly damage including autism.  They already started fading out amounts of mercury for the same reasons. I already gave you a link to the FDA site showing adverse effects and autism being one of them, so if it's "scientificly proven" why is it still there?  Here's another link about research on aluminum and autsim.  

http://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/14/11/2227/pdf

Also like I said don't judge something you don't understand.  I never said I haven't vaccinated my kids you just assumed.  I can still vacinate but choice what to and what not to.  I also have many friends that fully vacinate and don't at all and partail do.  Suport all of them in there decissions and don't try and persuade them one way or the other.  It's there choice.  

Now if there's a severe deadly true outbreak ( not a extremly small amount of people with no deaths) I would defently get that vacine if I didn't already have that one after researching the one with lesser of the dangerous chemicals. 

There is no link, it's been proven in a study of over a million children: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X14006367

As was previously stated...

Children that develop autism and those that don't were both vaccinated to the same frequency:

 http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/113/2/259

That taking thimerosal out of vaccines which many blamed for autism had no effect on the rates of autism in those areas:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18180424

As for aluminium, please, babies recieve more of that from breast milk than from vaccines, and vastly more from formula:

http://vec.chop.edu/service/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-safety/vaccine-ingredients/aluminum.html

If it really causes so much damage, babies raised on formula would be dead.

 

Do you understand how herd immunity works? The only reason Measles isn't rampant in the US, and other developed nations, is because of high vaccination coverage. If we let the vaccination rate drop, epidemics will break out, and thousands would die. That would be vastly worse than the side effects of vaccines.

People who have compromised immune systems, pre-existing conditions, are pregnant, or below a certain age can't take certain vaccines. Plus, as with all medicines, a small minority of those who recieve a vaccine don't gain lasting immunity. These people are only safe if the people around them are vaccinated an cannot serve as carriers. If people choose not to vaccinate, their children become hosts for spreading potentially deadly and crippling diseases, and other people's innocent kids pay the price.

People who don't vaccinate aren't just making a choice for themselves, that's the problem; they are choosing to put the rest of society in danger. It's like saying people should be able to drink drive cos it only affects their driving. The safety of society at large is more important than one's personal beliefs.



mornelithe said:

Laws against shouting Bomb, or Fire in a theater, are basically the same.  Your right to free speech, is overruled by the fact that you're causing panic and an entirely unsafe situation.  Same thing here, by not vaccinating, you are creating an unsafe/harmful atmosphere for folks who cannot be vaccinated (children under the age of 1, I think, and those who have immuno deficiencies).

Well said.

Children under 1 get 23 sometimes more doeses of vacines, at least here in the USA.  There millions more kids allergic to nuts, seeds, eggs and ton of other foods.  Even if you ate it and walked by and breathed on them they can have a reaction. Should we ban all public eating? There at way way more risk then the extremly extremly small amount that can't be vacinated.  Also quick story.  A family member of mine was forced to get a flu vacine that works in Health care after being threaten with her job of 15 years.  Even though she was allergic to ingredients in the vacine and let the DR. know.  She gave in and had a masive reaction and was hospitalized. Imagine that was a infant. They wouldn't have made it to the ER.  If DR. S are going to force immunization to someone that has allergies to ingredients do you think they even look at that? No.  I had Major Back surgry and I brought a limitation of the surgry up that my DR. Had no clue about even thought he's preformed 1000's of these before.  They don't know everything, they try don't get me wrong but every complacations of every med and every vacine and surgry, ect..that would be insane.  You here the list of 1 med they list on TV. It's a mile long.  There's a reason you don't see vacine ones.  



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curl-6 said:
Bfriedli said:

Problem is, your choice doesn't just affect you. By not vaccinating, you're enforcing the consequences of your choice on other people's kids, putting them in danger as well. Every person that doesn't vaccinate lowers herd immunity, potentially placing millions of people at risk should it fall low enough.

And the mortality rate for Measles is waaaay more than "0.000015%", it was measured at 0.3%, or 3 in every 1000 victims, in the USA between 1987 and 2000. http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/189/Supplement_1/S4.full

As for whooping cough, it kills 5 in every 1000 infected infantshttp://ideas.health.vic.gov.au/bluebook/pertussis.asp

And those are the figures for first world countries; in the third world it's vastly worse.

And once again, autism and vaccines are not linked: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X14006367


Sorry My numbers are usa based and no one in the USA has died from meassles in the last 10 years but over 100 meassles vacine deaths.  http://healthimpactnews.com/2015/zero-u-s-measles-deaths-in-10-years-but-over-100-measles-vaccine-deaths-reported/

Also Iam not comparing if you have and die from it, it's actualy getting it and dieing from it.  There has been around 100 deaths a year in the USA from getting a diesease with a vacine with 320,000,000 that's 1 in 3,200,000 people. 

Millions at risk?  What about car accidents?  There's more car accidents in the USA then getting a vacinable disease.  Should we ban driving?  It puts more at risk. Do you go to work sick or to the store to get meds?  That's puting people at risk too.  You can't stop all risks.   Heard imunity?  Aren't Vacines supose to keep you from getting the diesease?  The ones that do get it are all the unvaccinated ones anyways right?  Have you heard about the overuse of antibotics.  From it now antibotics are not working when they used too because it mutated to survive and adapte.  There already seeing it happend in vacinable diseases because of vacines.  

Also high levels of Aluminum are linked to nurologicaly damage including autism.  They already started fading out amounts of mercury for the same reasons. I already gave you a link to the FDA site showing adverse effects and autism being one of them, so if it's "scientificly proven" why is it still there?  Here's another link about research on aluminum and autsim.  

http://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/14/11/2227/pdf

Also like I said don't judge something you don't understand.  I never said I haven't vaccinated my kids you just assumed.  I can still vacinate but choice what to and what not to.  I also have many friends that fully vacinate and don't at all and partail do.  Suport all of them in there decissions and don't try and persuade them one way or the other.  It's there choice.  

Now if there's a severe deadly true outbreak ( not a extremly small amount of people with no deaths) I would defently get that vacine if I didn't already have that one after researching the one with lesser of the dangerous chemicals. 

There is no link, it's been proven in a study of over a million children: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X14006367

As was previously stated...

Children that develop autism and those that don't were both vaccinated to the same frequency:

 http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/113/2/259

That taking thimerosal out of vaccines which many blamed for autism had no effect on the rates of autism in those areas:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18180424

As for aluminium, please, babies recieve more of that from breast milk than from vaccines, and vastly more from formula:

http://vec.chop.edu/service/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-safety/vaccine-ingredients/aluminum.html

If it really causes so much damage, babies raised on formula would be dead.

 

Do you understand how herd immunity works? The only reason Measles isn't rampant in the US, and other developed nations, is because of high vaccination coverage. If we let the vaccination rate drop, epidemics will break out, and thousands would die. That would be vastly worse than the side effects of vaccines.

People who have compromised immune systems, pre-existing conditions, are pregnant, or below a certain age can't take certain vaccines. Plus, as with all medicines, a small minority of those who recieve a vaccine don't gain lasting immunity. These people are only safe if the people around them are vaccinated an cannot serve as carriers. If people choose not to vaccinate, their children become hosts for spreading potentially deadly and crippling diseases, and other people's innocent kids pay the price.

People who don't vaccinate aren't just making a choice for themselves, that's the problem; they are choosing to put the rest of society in danger. It's like saying people should be able to drink drive cos it only affects their driving. The safety of society at large is more important than one's personal beliefs.

Understand the heard part but this is about small amout of people's choice not eleminating vacines.  If they made them safer and more spread out Id would feel differnt then I do.

Again millions at risk???? There has been in the USA around 11,000 deaths from a preventable disease in the last 65 years.  Around 2/3 being 62, 63, 64 & 65 years ago. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/G/cases-deaths.pdf  

Again way way more die from other reasons, why force small amount to do something they don't feal that's a right choice for there family?  Go after more dangerous things.  

Heres that link again from the FDA and like I said why even list autism as adverse effect if it's "scienticly proven" not to, why list it?  http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM101580.pdf.  Did you read the other "scientific study" showing aluminum can cause autsim and other nurologicaly damage.  http://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/14/11/2227/pdf

Theres too much articles that are both sides for comfort. One saying no others saying yes. I do believe most vacines are ment to be good, they just need to try and make them safer.  Why not? Then there shouldn't  be much controversy or any payouts do to severe damage or deaths.  



Understand the heard part but this is about small amout of people's choice not eleminating vacines.  If they made them safer and more spread out Id would feel differnt then I do.

Again millions at risk???? There has been in the USA around 11,000 deaths from a preventable disease in the last 65 years.  Around 2/3 being 62, 63, 64 & 65 years ago. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/G/cases-deaths.pdf  

Again way way more die from other reasons, why force small amount to do something they don't feal that's a right choice for there family?  Go after more dangerous things.  

Heres that link again from the FDA and like I said why even list autism as adverse effect if it's "scienticly proven" not to, why list it?  http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM101580.pdf.  Did you read the other "scientific study" showing aluminum can cause autsim and other nurologicaly damage.  http://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/14/11/2227/pdf

Theres too much articles that are both sides for comfort. One saying no others saying yes. I do believe most vacines are ment to be good, they just need to try and make them safer.  Why not? Then there shouldn't  be much controversy or any payouts do to severe damage or deaths.  

If you truly understood the "herd part" and actually reviewed historical data on measles, this article would come as no surprise: http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/

Based upon your prior rhetoric and last post, however, that link should be revelatory, horrifying, and compel you to recant most of your previous assertions.



Bfriedli said:
curl-6 said:

There is no link, it's been proven in a study of over a million children: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X14006367

As was previously stated...

Children that develop autism and those that don't were both vaccinated to the same frequency:

 http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/113/2/259

That taking thimerosal out of vaccines which many blamed for autism had no effect on the rates of autism in those areas:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18180424

As for aluminium, please, babies recieve more of that from breast milk than from vaccines, and vastly more from formula:

http://vec.chop.edu/service/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-safety/vaccine-ingredients/aluminum.html

If it really causes so much damage, babies raised on formula would be dead.

 

Do you understand how herd immunity works? The only reason Measles isn't rampant in the US, and other developed nations, is because of high vaccination coverage. If we let the vaccination rate drop, epidemics will break out, and thousands would die. That would be vastly worse than the side effects of vaccines.

People who have compromised immune systems, pre-existing conditions, are pregnant, or below a certain age can't take certain vaccines. Plus, as with all medicines, a small minority of those who recieve a vaccine don't gain lasting immunity. These people are only safe if the people around them are vaccinated an cannot serve as carriers. If people choose not to vaccinate, their children become hosts for spreading potentially deadly and crippling diseases, and other people's innocent kids pay the price.

People who don't vaccinate aren't just making a choice for themselves, that's the problem; they are choosing to put the rest of society in danger. It's like saying people should be able to drink drive cos it only affects their driving. The safety of society at large is more important than one's personal beliefs.

Understand the heard part but this is about small amout of people's choice not eleminating vacines.  If they made them safer and more spread out Id would feel differnt then I do.

Again millions at risk???? There has been in the USA around 11,000 deaths from a preventable disease in the last 65 years.  Around 2/3 being 62, 63, 64 & 65 years ago. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/G/cases-deaths.pdf  

Again way way more die from other reasons, why force small amount to do something they don't feal that's a right choice for there family?  Go after more dangerous things.  

Heres that link again from the FDA and like I said why even list autism as adverse effect if it's "scienticly proven" not to, why list it?  http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM101580.pdf.  Did you read the other "scientific study" showing aluminum can cause autsim and other nurologicaly damage.  http://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/14/11/2227/pdf

Theres too much articles that are both sides for comfort. One saying no others saying yes. I do believe most vacines are ment to be good, they just need to try and make them safer.  Why not? Then there shouldn't  be much controversy or any payouts do to severe damage or deaths.  

Most likely it's there as an antiquated catchall to avoid lawsuits, and they simply haven't updated it. 

As to the chart, let's look at 1950; over 3000 recorded deaths in the US that year from polio and pertussis alone. And this was after smallpox, the biggest preventable killer, had been already vaccinated out of the country. (It also doesn't list how many people survived but were left crippled, blinded, or with other lasting consequences)

Fast forward to 2011, and not a single death. Why? Because of extensive vaccination. Remember also that the population of the US in 1950 was less than half what it is today.

Herd immunity is the mechanism by which epidemics are prevented, but it only works if a certain percentage of the population or higher is immune. When somebody doesn't vaccinate, they are lowering the population's overall immunity, and when it falls below a certain point, outbreaks occur.



From the WHO: "Measles is a highly contagious, serious disease caused by a virus. In 1980, before widespread vaccination, measles caused an estimated 2.6 million deaths each year." 

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/

As far as the "catch-all" theory, you are absolutely right; it's a byproduct of OUS clinical trials for FDA approvals (Too many simultaneous exposures make the root causes of patient symptoms indeterminate.). 





How measles made a comeback from scishow

http://youtu.be/kjFPUoIXd80



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