Forums - Gaming Discussion - I dont understand the hate Anita Sarkeesian is recieved over Mirrors Edge 2

What do you think of Anita

She sucks! 196 61.83%
 
Shes awesome! 18 5.68%
 
Don't care 60 18.93%
 
Sometimes I agree with he... 43 13.56%
 
Total:317

I want complex, awesome female characters for video games too, but chastising the industry for every nit-pick just comes off as obnoxious.

After watching a few of her videos, it just reminds me of the gender studies class I took in which every single thing in society was seen as a thing oppressing women. Is there still sexism? Yes, harassment and stereotypes still float around but she comes off as a fringe feminist in that EVERYTHING is oppressive instead of maybe more marketed to males (doesn't mean all males like it) just as things such as Pinterest or Seventeen magazine are marketed towards women (again, doesn't mean all women like it).

I guess it comes down to if we want video games to be a forefront of social change forcefully or let the market decide what we want video games to have. Honestly, awesome female protagonist, though few and far between, do have huge fanbases from both genders and deserve more place in the video game culture. I think putting women in for the sake of having a quota is dumb. We are better than that.



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TechnoHobbit said:
fireburn95 said:


And Anita is the one that blocks her youtube comments section hmm...

I can see why reading this thread. There is a point when criticism becomes hate, not to mention all of the criticism she gets for things she didn't even say/do. If people were reasonable and gave her well thought out counter arguments instead of all this ridiculousness I'm certain she would allow comments.


She hates freedom of speech unless it suits her. But hey keep drinking the kool aid.



fireburn95 said:
TechnoHobbit said:

I can see why reading this thread. There is a point when criticism becomes hate, not to mention all of the criticism she gets for things she didn't even say/do. If people were reasonable and gave her well thought out counter arguments instead of all this ridiculousness I'm certain she would allow comments.


Hate is still criticism. So we supposed to sugar coat her and only talk about the good points of her video. Thats censorship at its very finest.

Want well thought out counter arguments? Watch Thunderf00t on youtube. Plus, he doesn't censor his criticism, including the hate.

Guess what, if everybody hates something, it's probably bad.



the comment section under thunderf00ts videos are pure gold...

o_O.Q said:
"Ellie is the most empowered female character ever created"

then to be blunt you do not understand what empowerment means

ellie spends the whole game relying on joel to keep her safe so ultimately she was only ever a dependent and that is not empowering

to be empowered means that you for example have the power to keep yourself safe that you are truly independent and autonomous

ellie was neither and this is pretty much why i take issue with a lot of the things feminists say... because, for example, its clear that they lack a fundamental understanding of many of the terms they use commonly such as objectification, empowerment, independence, autonomy etc

Your attempt to make me seem like I cannot understand what empowerment means is false.

Actualy, no. Ellie is not completely dependent upon joel, she is put under his protection to be transported from point A to point B in the game. During this time Joel , eventually stops seeing Ellie as a job and eventually develops feelings for her, and eventually ends up falling for her as if she were his own daughter, which he lost earlier in the game.

Ellie as a personality, is brash, brave, wise beyond her years and self sufficient; however, she has a lot to learn in skill, philosophy and survival and joel gives this to her. She grew up in a post apocalyptic world and knows how to cope with it. She did not witness the world transform from tranquility, to shambles.  She might not be able to overpower a man, but she knows how to take them down and survive on her own (especially after Joel helps her). 

Joel eventually has to let go of Ellie and allow her to use the tools at her disposal to protect herself if need be. In the beginning of the game she is trying to cope with Joels protectiveness (admist his reluctance to be her protector). In the middle of the game he realizes that he cannot stop her from helping him and as the game progresses he can no longer stop her from growing into the survivalist she was always meant to be. He finally gathers the will and teaches her lessons which  allow her to shoot certain guns  (broadening her experience) and this helps her in the sequences later to come where joel would eventually need her help. He could no longer deny her.

Ellie was already a brave character, but joel empowered her to survive much longer during his time with her than without. He became the father she didnt have and she became the daughter he didn't have. His issue with empowering her, was learning to let go, because eventually she meant more to him than his duty to protect her. She returns the favor to protect him in kind. Joel couldnt protect her forever and just as he began to teach her...he needed her more than ever.

I'll just leave the definition of empower here for you.

    em·pow·er
    əmˈpou(ə)r/
    verb
    past tense: empowered; past participle: empowered
    1. give (someone) the authority or power to do something.
      "nobody was empowered to sign checks on her behalf"
      synonyms: authorizeentitlepermitallowlicensesanctionwarrantcommission,delegatequalifyenableequip
      "the act empowered police to arrest dissenters"
       
      • make (someone) stronger and more confident, especially in controlling their life and claiming their rights.
        "movements to empower the poor"
        synonyms: emancipateunshackle, set free, liberate
        "movements to empower the poor"
      • Joel eventually has to let go of Ellie and allow her to use the tools at her disposal to protect herself if need be. The whole game she was trying to help Joel and he was trying to prove save the day and protect her on his own.


    S.T.A.G.E. said:

    Anita Sarkeesian has stated numerous times in her videos that she sees a problem in gaming where females are concerned. Her argument is purely that the way games portray women don't put them in a strong light where they can fend for themselves or put them in the background. Of course she knows that is not completely true, but its not completely a lie either. She cites games that treat women like meat or sources of males sexual fantasies and look at it as a place that while inspiring can be very troubling in her opinion. The problem I don't think she understands is that she doesn't speak for all of female gamers. I am a feminist myself and I can cite numerous female characters who can hold their own in a game. 


    If she has a problem with the way women are treated in specific games, then take it up with those developers. Every developer should not feel responsible because 'game x promoted male fantasies of sexualised women'

    One thing people have against her is her lack of fact, or evidence, over opinion. "blah blah blah gives into male ego.." But why?! Did a dude ever claim to have sex with a girl because of the sex scene in god of war? Did anyone ever drag dead women around because of hitman absolution?

    No!
    Mens brains are more than sponges. We can think, we can reason, we can logically observe. We know right and wrong, and ultimately, what is on the screen, is stored in temporary memory of our brain for the meanwhile we are playing the game with the so called sexualised content.

    It's her personal opinion at the end of the day that certain scenes are designed to sell to male fantasy. But not every scene. 



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    generic-user-1 said:
    TechnoHobbit said:

    This is the first time I've actually sat down and read a thread about her and I can see what I long suspected is true--gamers in general really can't take much criticism lol.

    I'd get into it, but my avatar... isn't really the best for discussing this topic.



    no fear, we gamers dont judge you because of your gender, the colour of your skin or your sexual orientation. we only judge you because of the ideas in your head, so go on explain...

    Actually I'm wearing this avatar because I lost a bet lol

    Anyway, I can't help but feel gamers are acting as though they're a victim in this whole situation--as though Anita is forcing her opinions upon them. If someone doesn't agree with her they should simply make a good argument against her, instead they freak out and become super childish. Funny thing is, by freaking out about her they're actually just giving her more power.

    Like I said before, I don't agree with everything she says, but I do admit she makes some good points and that the portrayal of women in entertainment is pretty messed up and I see nothing wrong with devs (or anyone in the entertainment industry--her older videos have little to do with gaming) following some of her advice--in fact it would probably make the gaming market a bigger and better place. 

    IkePoR said:
    TechnoHobbit said:

    This is the first time I've actually sat down and read a thread about her and I can see what I long suspected is true--gamers in general really can't take much criticism lol.

    I'd get into it, but my avatar... isn't really the best for discussing this topic.

    I don't believe it is an issue of not being able to take criticism.  It's a matter of black or white with Anita.  As stated in this thread, Anita's agenda is female supremacy, and equality.  

    The fact some people hate equality between genders so much is a bit disappointing to be honest.

    fireburn95 said:

    Hate is still criticism. So we supposed to sugar coat her and only talk about the good points of her video. Thats censorship at its very finest.

    Want well thought out counter arguments? Watch Thunderf00t on youtube. Plus, he doesn't censor his criticism, including the hate.

    Guess what, if everybody hates something, it's probably bad.


    Hatred clouds the mind, you don't think rationally when you feel so much hatred. Though you are right, hate is criticism. It's criticism that doesn't help anything though. What I'm asking for is criticism that is done in a matter that is respectful, it doesn't have to be friendly, but it should be be done with a clear mind and with the intent of helping things get better (which I believe Anita Sarkeesian tries to do).  



    Bets:

    1. If the Wii U sells closer to 10 million LTD by 1/3/2015 I win. If it sells closer to 9.5 million LTD by 1/3/2015 OfficerRaichu15 wins (winner gets 2 weeks of avatar control)--Lost.

    S.T.A.G.E. said:
    o_O.Q said:
    "Ellie is the most empowered female character ever created"

    then to be blunt you do not understand what empowerment means

    ellie spends the whole game relying on joel to keep her safe so ultimately she was only ever a dependent and that is not empowering

    to be empowered means that you for example have the power to keep yourself safe that you are truly independent and autonomous

    ellie was neither and this is pretty much why i take issue with a lot of the things feminists say... because, for example, its clear that they lack a fundamental understanding of many of the terms they use commonly such as objectification, empowerment, independence, autonomy etc

    Your attempt to make me seem like I cannot understand what empowerment means is false.

    Actualy, no. Ellie is not completely dependent upon joel, she is put under his protection to be transported from point A to point B in the game. During this time Joel , eventually stops seeing Ellie as a job and eventually develops feelings for her, and eventually ends up falling for her as if she were his own daughter, which he lost earlier in the game.

    Ellie as a personality, is brash, brave, wise beyond her years and self sufficient; however, she has a lot to learn in skill, philosophy and survival and joel gives this to her. She grew up in a post apocalyptic world and knows how to cope with it. She did not witness the world transform from tranquility, to shambles.  She might not be able to overpower a man, but she knows how to take them down and survive on her own (especially after Joel helps her). 

    Joel eventually has to let go of Ellie and allow her to use the tools at her disposal to protect herself if need be. In the beginning of the game she is trying to cope with Joels protectiveness, in the beginning of the game he cannot stop her from helping him and as the game progresses he can no longer stop her from growing into the survivalist she was always meant to be, so he finally teaches her lessons allows her to shoot certain guns  and this helps her in the sequences later to come where joel would eventually need her help.

    Ellie was already a brave character, but joel empowered her to survive much longer during his time with her than without. He became the father she didnt have and she became the daughter he didn't have. His issue with empowering her, was learning to let go, because eventually she meant more to him than his duty to protect her. She returns the favor to protect him in kind. Joel couldnt protect her forever and just as he began to teach her...he needed her more than ever.

    I'll just leave the definition of empower here for you.

      em·pow·er
      əmˈpou(ə)r/
      verb
      past tense: empowered; past participle: empowered
      1. give (someone) the authority or power to do something.
        "nobody was empowered to sign checks on her behalf"
        synonyms: authorizeentitlepermitallowlicensesanctionwarrantcommission,delegatequalifyenableequip
        "the act empowered police to arrest dissenters"
         
        • make (someone) stronger and more confident, especially in controlling their life and claiming their rights.
          "movements to empower the poor"
          synonyms: emancipateunshackle, set free, liberate
          "movements to empower the poor"
        • Joel eventually has to let go of Ellie and allow her to use the tools at her disposal to protect herself if need be. The whole game she was trying to help Joel and he was trying to prove save the day and protect her on his own.


      "Your attempt to make me seem like I cannot understand what empowerment means is false."

      i did not say that, i said that based on your belief that ellie is empowered that you do not understand what it means at this point... to say that i said that you "cannot" understand it implies that i'm saying that you have some kind of mental defect and that is not the case

      "Joel eventually has to let go of Ellie and allow her to use the tools at her disposal to protect herself if need be"

      actually that's right now that i think about it i'm wrong

      i had forgotten about the winter months when ellie had to take care of joel and keep him safe and provide food for him

      so yeah my mistake i was only remembering the first half where joel had to escort her everywhere 

      "I'll just leave the definition of empower here for you."

      yes i understand empowerment but the ways i see it being used recently makes me wonder about if its losing its meaning




      generic-user-1 said:
      fireburn95 said:

      Hate is still criticism. So we supposed to sugar coat her and only talk about the good points of her video. Thats censorship at its very finest.

      Want well thought out counter arguments? Watch Thunderf00t on youtube. Plus, he doesn't censor his criticism, including the hate.

      Guess what, if everybody hates something, it's probably bad.


      Hatred clouds the mind, you don't think rationally when you feel so much hatred. Though you are right, hate is criticism. It's criticism that doesn't help anything though. What I'm asking for is criticism that is done in a matter that is respectful, it doesn't have to be friendly, but it should be be done with a clear mind and with the intent of helping things get better (which I believe Anita Sarkeesian tries to do).  



      People 'hate' because of Anitas lack of valid argument. An argument needs a point and evidence. She can easily come out and say "This game is designed to give in to male fantasy", but where's the evidence that men are psychologically void that they cannot differentiate between real and fake?

      Second point is, because she blocks critiques on twitter, even those who aren't aggresive or abusive.

      Third is, this isn't done Primarily for the good of feminism. She makes money of this. 160 big ones infact. For someone who asks for money, and gets a lot, you expect valid arguments, well sourced and evidence-filled.

      She promises 12 videos in 2 years, and makes half of that. Those who paid for what they were promised could naturally be angry at that alone. If we can hate at Bioware for an awful mass effect 3 ending,
      we can hate at Anita for low-quality, less-than-promised quanitity, invalid arguments and pushing agendas of female superiority. 



      I could go on either side. I think that her message is important. It needs to be talked about. I just think she doesn't do it in the ways that actually help.

      For instance her video critiques are often disingenuous. She will assign meaning to actions and scenarios that simply can't be attributed to the game. I think that if she were more genuine in her characterization of certain games she wouldn't get the strong hate reaction we tend to see associated with her.



      TechnoHobbit said:
      fireburn95 said:


      And Anita is the one that blocks her youtube comments section hmm...

      I can see why reading this thread. There is a point when criticism becomes hate, not to mention all of the criticism she gets for things she didn't even say/do. If people were reasonable and gave her well thought out counter arguments instead of all this ridiculousness I'm certain she would allow comments.

      sarkeeesian and feminists like her perpetuate hatred towards women even more than the men that she criticises for doing so 

      off the top of my head one example i can think of is when she said that the character bayonetta is nothing more than a fighting fuck toy that is made for the pleasure of male gamers

       

      therefore, she is offensive to lesbians there implying that female homosexuality is illegitimate, she implies that any women that have bayonetta's appearance and attitude are "fuck toys" and she's also offensive to men obviously and she acheived all of this with a few tweets

      and that's just one example that i can think of