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Forums - Gaming - What conventions would you like to see changed in Zelda U?

As I said, lighting a torch is problem solving. Solving a problem is essentially a puzzle, logic or not. 

We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this. Guess we'll see when it comes out. I just hope many enjoy the game. 



Gotta figure out how to set these up lol.

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spemanig said:
Dusk said:

Right. So you walk into the dark room. What do you do? You solve the problem. Puzzle? Check. All problem solving puzzles, and others give clues to the puzzles. These are very rudamentary without doubt, but it is the foundation of Zelda games. Every since then, then puzzles have become more elaborate, or the necessity of using outside of the box problem solving skills has become essential. 

I'm going to agree with others. If you want Dark Souls, play that. If you want a hack-n-slack, go play Diablo. I believe you are setting yourself up for disappointment with Zelda U if you don't think there will be any puzzles. The trailers have already hinted towards that if you watch them closely. They said they are looking to change some conventions of the series, not change what it is. In all likelihood, they are getting rid of the linearity of the games and with the addition of health bars on enemies, it might become more action oriented in that respect, but it will likely urge you towards a certain path like MMO's often do with enemies you might not stand much of a chance against as a lower level character, but I doubt that Zelda would take such an extreme approach towards this idea. 

I'm personally hoping for multiple stories and forks in the road where you are forced to make decisions that can alter the destiny of the character and others around them. 

I also don't really like the idea of Link speaking. He has always been the silent altruistic protagonist through his actions, not words and I don't see an issue with that. 

The online multiplayer aspect sounds interesting and could be, but it's hard to say if it will come to fruition or not. 4 swords worked really well, but at the same time, the people were right there next to you. The problem with online in games, is that often people are the problem. Some are trolls, some are far advanced beyond others, or far behind. People become frustraited and there is no tie to encourage proper behavior. If your friend was trolling you when you play a game, you can start smack talking them or give them a shot in the arm. Online you have 13 year old children that say some of the most vile and vulgar things I have ever heard and there is nothing you can do other than turn them off (sound) or not play with them. If there becomes certain parts in the game that require multiple people, the game might become unplayable at some point in time where you cannot connect to others.

What's wrong with green?

I disagree with the Hero mode thing, although, I would like to see a bit of extra content on second run throughs or something like that. Perhaps alternate endings?

I think the triforce needs to stay. Beyond that, bring it.  


Powerful enemies discouraging unprepared travelers from progressing to an area they are ill prepared for is literally a Zelda 1 thing. Only afterwards did Mmos and, you guessed it, Dark Souls, adopt it and Zelda abandon it.

 

Do you like the Prime series? Because the producer of those games said the world was designed so it was safe to explore and the only real danger were the bosses. They didn't want people to become afraid of exploring the world. 

And I think it worked out just fine. 



Dusk said:

As I said, lighting a torch is problem solving. Solving a problem is essentially a puzzle, logic or not. 

We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this. Guess we'll see when it comes out. I just hope many enjoy the game. 


Problem-solving is not "essentially a puzzle." There is no way around that. When you turn on the lamp in your house, you didn't solve the puzzle. When you open a door in your house, you didn't solve the puzzle. Doing the same thing in a video game isn't solving a puzzle.



Samus Aran said:

Do you like the Prime series? Because the producer of those games said the world was designed so it was safe to explore and the only real danger were the bosses. They didn't want people to become afraid of exploring the world. 

And I think it worked out just fine. 


Metroid isn't open in the same way that Zeldas supposed to be. The Metroid games literally had locked doors to hold your progress in the world. Zelda 1 had enemies. Metroid is supposed to be A combination of the exploration aspects of Zelda mixed in with the linearity of Mario. You're striving to gain item upgrades to progress through the game. It worked in Metroid prime because that's how Metroid games are supposed to be. That doesn't work for Zelda. It's a completely different design philosophy. Those enemies may be really difficult for you if you just are in the game, but they are impossible. You can defeat them if you're skilled enough and progress further. That literally wouldn't make sense in A Metroid game because You already have a physical barrier stopping you from progressing. There's no reason to add a brutal Enemy on top of that to discourage you from going further, because you physically couldn't go any further even if you did defeat those enemies. You don't have complete freedom to explore anywhere you want in Metroid at the beginning. You are supposed to in Zelda so having organic areas like enemies works in Zelda. The only people that it discourages from exploring are people who would be too weak or unskilled to get past that area anyway.



spemanig said:
Dusk said:

As I said, lighting a torch is problem solving. Solving a problem is essentially a puzzle, logic or not. 

We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this. Guess we'll see when it comes out. I just hope many enjoy the game. 


Problem-solving is not "essentially a puzzle." There is no way around that. When you turn on the lamp in your house, you didn't solve the puzzle. When you open a door in your house, you didn't solve the puzzle. Doing the same thing in a video game isn't solving a puzzle.

When you do it for the first time it is. Think about the person that first lit a torch as opposed to flicking a switch that you grew up with. It still wasn't walking into a dungeon room and flicking a switch for the most part. 



Gotta figure out how to set these up lol.

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spemanig said:
DanneSandin said:

Well, that's why I said "mini puzzles" ;) And the thing is, they are puzzles in the sense that you have to figure them out. Sort of. It's just not hack'n'slash, although, I DO want those kind of enemies as well. But that's "canon fodder" ;) And I agree that items should be optional on enemies, kinda like Mega Man and bosses. But items could and maybe should allow you to explore certain areas in either the Overworld, or the dungeons, that you can't reach without said item. Just as a bonus area. And puzzles could work in the same vein; "if you wanna access this restricted area (which is in no way obligatory) you need to solve this puzzle".

Dungeons can be intimidating with puzzles though; do it wrong and more enemies come, or a trap is triggered. Or, before you solve the puzzle you'll need to take care of these two mini bosses. Things like that could work quite well.


If items are used to create logical shortcuts through dungeons like bombing walls of connected rooms in Zelda 1, then I can get behind that. I can't get behind halting my progress to solve what is always a mundane puzzle. And don't think I can get behind item exclusive secret areas either unless it's for inconsequential rewards like a bunch of rupees or something like that.

Like I said. Sprawling dungeons where you're solving one macro puzzle throughout work if they are separate from the main dungeons. Have those be separate, though. There's not many puzzles in Zelda where you get them wrong. You just don't get them correct yet. Also all of those things aren't causing intimidation through puzzle solving. The puzzles are just acting as a tedious key to open a door. You take your time solving a puzzle, you get it wrong, and then your intimidated by enemies or a trap. You are intimidated by two mini bosses, and then calm down to solve a puzzle.

Yes, items could be used to create short cuts - that's a pretty good use of them; reward the player for finding them by giving them the option of short cuts and things. The item-specific area would contain rupees or heart containers, as a reward for finding the area and stuff like that.

What I'm suggesting is that you NEED to take your time solving the puzzles; or else enemies or traps will be let loose. Get he puzzle wrong might open the WRONG door, letting enemies at ya. Imagine having only two hearts left, and you have to solve this puzzle, but if you get it wrong two darknuts will appear. Now, THAT'S a pretty intimidating situaition.



I'm on Twitter @DanneSandin!

Furthermore, I think VGChartz should add a "Like"-button.

spemanig said:
DanneSandin said:

But from what I hear, the bosses in DS2 isn't all that good; it sounds as if more of a wait-for-the-boss-attack-for-you-to-counter-attack thing. And that's not what I want from Zelda. I'd much rather fool the boss to attack me, so that it shows its weak spot so I can attack


I don't think I've ever played a Zelda game where you aren't just waiting for the boss to attack so you can counter attack aside from Zelda 1. And you're never fooling a boss into attacking you. You're waiting for them to because until they do, they are usually literally invincable and you have no other option but to wait. With Dark Souls, the game teaches you to create openings for yourself. It can teach you to be patient or be punished. They are almost always vulnerable, but they also know that you're vulnerable and will try to harm you. They are defensive through offense, which Zelda can stand to learn. I'd actually rather more of the boss fights be aggressive like in Bloodborne than passive like in Dark Souls as it fits Zelda better in my opinion.

Things like interrupting a boss mid attack to stun them and create an opening is what I really want to see in Zelda bosses. You don't need to do that, but it would limit your effectiveness if you didn't. Options. With recent Zelda bosses, there's always only one way to defeat them. In the Souls games and Bloodborne, there are many. Since bomb arrows are confirmed, let that be a way to stun large bosses. If you are able to score a hit on them while they are attacking, then they become dazed temperarily, opening them up for a follow up, however the bosses actually are smart enough to dodge obvious attacks. Same with the sheild bash. If you can block a powerful hit, there's a chance you can daze the boss, but they can also punish you by knocking you off your balance if you abuse it. The parry system in WW would have been so much better if there were no visual cue. If you could only parry by paying attention to the way your enemy telegraphs an attack and also the alert sound, it would have felt less cheap. Also, they should have had you manually attack the enemy after you parry rather than it simply being automatic. Press A to parry and then time pressing B correctly to successfully execute the counter attack.

But yeah, the boss fights in Dark Souls are awesome.

I totally agree with all of this! That's what I'd like to see from bosses, but also to a certain extent, to smaller foes as well.



I'm on Twitter @DanneSandin!

Furthermore, I think VGChartz should add a "Like"-button.

DanneSandin said:

Yes, items could be used to create short cuts - that's a pretty good use of them; reward the player for finding them by giving them the option of short cuts and things. The item-specific area would contain rupees or heart containers, as a reward for finding the area and stuff like that.

What I'm suggesting is that you NEED to take your time solving the puzzles; or else enemies or traps will be let loose. Get he puzzle wrong might open the WRONG door, letting enemies at ya. Imagine having only two hearts left, and you have to solve this puzzle, but if you get it wrong two darknuts will appear. Now, THAT'S a pretty intimidating situaition.


Sitting in a room taking your time to solve a puzzle is exactly what I don't want. To me, having strong enemies halt your attempts at solving a puzzle is frustrating more than it is intimidating. Your feeling of intimidation is shattered as soon as you halt your progress to solve a puzzle, and then the enemies just mean that you have to spend even more time solving that puzzle. Not because it's difficult, but because it's padding. It just forces you to stay in the same room for longer than you should need to.



spemanig said:
DanneSandin said:

Yes, items could be used to create short cuts - that's a pretty good use of them; reward the player for finding them by giving them the option of short cuts and things. The item-specific area would contain rupees or heart containers, as a reward for finding the area and stuff like that.

What I'm suggesting is that you NEED to take your time solving the puzzles; or else enemies or traps will be let loose. Get he puzzle wrong might open the WRONG door, letting enemies at ya. Imagine having only two hearts left, and you have to solve this puzzle, but if you get it wrong two darknuts will appear. Now, THAT'S a pretty intimidating situaition.


Sitting in a room taking your time to solve a puzzle is exactly what I don't want. To me, having strong enemies halt your attempts at solving a puzzle is frustrating more than it is intimidating. Your feeling of intimidation is shattered as soon as you halt your progress to solve a puzzle, and then the enemies just mean that you have to spend even more time solving that puzzle. Not because it's difficult, but because it's padding. It just forces you to stay in the same room for longer than you should need to.

But it doesnt have to be like that though. Puzzles can be intimidating if you know that IF you screw up, you might be attacked or set off some traps. Both of which would test your skills. Its really no difference from entering a room to fight a mini boss so that you can get a key. Whats the mini boss for? Testing your skills and halting your progress. Puzzles would test your WITS, and if youre not careful enough those puzzles would set of traps to test your skills.



I'm on Twitter @DanneSandin!

Furthermore, I think VGChartz should add a "Like"-button.

DanneSandin said:

But it doesnt have to be like that though. Puzzles can be intimidating if you know that IF you screw up, you might be attacked or set off some traps. Both of which would test your skills. Its really no difference from entering a room to fight a mini boss so that you can get a key. Whats the mini boss for? Testing your skills and halting your progress. Puzzles would test your WITS, and if youre not careful enough those puzzles would set of traps to test your skills.


There's a huge difference. Fighting a miniboss is an active experience. Solving a puzzle is not. You're confronted by a miniboss. You're presented with a puzzle. It's not like if you lose a miniboss fight, you have to solve a puzzle before you can challenge it again. That would be frustrating and ruin the pacing of the dungeon. The opposite that you suggest would be just as, if not more, frustrating. It isn't the puzzle that's intimidating. It's the punishment for failure. In a miniboss fight, the miniboss himself is intimidating. The idea that enemies are needed to make the naturally not intimidating process of solving a puzzle more intimidating is proof enough that they don't work in that way. The miniboss halts your progress by adding to the intimidating atmosphere of the dungeon. A puzzle halts your progress by evaporating that atmosphere.