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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Has Wii U Reached Full Market Saturation?

RolStoppable said:
zorg1000 said:

Well what do u suggest they do instead? Chase after the mainstream AAA crowd that PS/XB own or chase the casual crowd that iOS/Android now own?

I know u are a fan of the Wii/DS but do u honestly think they can replicate that type of success again among casual gamers? Yes, Nintendo made some big mistakes at the beginning of this generation but even if they released a $250 console, using an updated Wii Remote and focused on games like Wii Sports/Wii Fit, would we really be seeing drastically better sales? Or if they released a $150 handheld with games like Brain Training/Nintendogs being the main focus, would we be seeing sales more similar to the DS?

Maybe ever so slightly better, but for the most part no, the main demographic for these type of games no longer wants to buy dedicated hardware to play these $30-60 games. They now have smartphones, devices they own regardless of gaming, that offer 100's or possibly even 1000's of games for free. These devices also have many health related apps and education based games so there is very little incentive for anyone to buy a console/handheld to play these type of games.

I'm pretty sure that u agree with me that it's a horrible idea for Nintendo to make a high-powered, $400 console to compete with PS5/XB4 and try winning over 3rd parties and mainstream AAA crowd (if they make a console with similar specs as PS4/XB1, they are essentially making another Wii U so they would have to go one step ahead of that with their next console).

Going for the casual crowd is a dead-end, going for the mainstream crowd is a dead-end, both of these demographics are happy with their current offerings and Nintendo would have a mighty struggle and probably lose a ton of money trying to win these crowds over. The best option to me seems to be capitalize on the 80 million or so lifetime install base for 3DS+Wii U (might be more like 50-70m when u take into account people who own both devices or bought multiple versions of 3DS) and release a shit load of high quality 1st party titles that can sell very well with these numbers.

Games like Mario platformers, Pokemon, Mario Kart, Smash Bros are all capable of selling 10 million or more, Donkey Kong, Legend of Zelda, Luigi's Mansion, Animal Crossing are capable of selling over 5 million, Mario spinoffs, Kirby, Metroid, Kid Icarus, Fire Emblem, Pikmin, Yoshi, Xenoblade, etc are capable of selling 1-3 million on a 50-70 million install base. Then u also have some Japanese 3rd party titles like Monster Hunter, Dragon Quest, Youkai Watch which are capable of selling strong numbers and dozens of kid-friendly western 3rd party titles each year which bring in profits for Nintendo.

There are also some other things I think Nintendo can do to bring in strong profits. Continue to support and expand Amiibo with figurines and cards. They can use Quality of Life to try attracting the fitness/education crowd they had last gen. A $50-100 children's educational tablet with software based around Nintendo ip similar to what Leapfrog/Vtech have could be successful and get young children familiar with their ip so they become fans of their games later on, they can also allow Amiibo support for this. Various inexpensive health/fitness devices like they have already talked about could be successful, for example they could release an updated, rebranded, standalone Wii Fit type device for something like $70-100, it probably won't sell nearly as well as Wii Fit did but it could still be a moderate success and be profitable. Continue to build strong relations with indies to make the eShop more comparable to the App Store/Google Play. Make the Virtual Console a big deal again, even better than it was on Wii and release an optional subscription fee, something like $50/year gives unlimited access to the VC, this could bring in alot of money for Nintendo.

Overall make their dedicated hardware appeal to their current userbase, build up Amiibo, eShop & Virtual Console to bring in strong profits and use Quality of Life to attract children/parents with health/fitness/education based devices. Nintendo doesn't need to sell like Wii/DS in order to have strong software sales and big profits.

Your assumption that the "casual crowd" doesn't want to buy dedicated hardware anymore is solely based on the sales of the Wii U and 3DS. But these systems suck ass, having hardware features that don't come anywhere close to justifying their higher price tags compared to the previous generation on top of being features that the market clearly doesn't want (so price cuts won't change the trajectory). The only redeeming quality of these systems are Nintendo games, otherwise they would have been dead in the water within a year of launch. Your analysis is a lot like concluding that nobody wants to buy Super Mario Bros. anymore, based on sales of the Nintendo 64 and GameCube. It's pretty hard to sell things that don't exist in proper form or don't exist at all.

Also, iOS and Android own nothing. When has there ever been a complete control over consumers in the video and computer game space? Additionally, playing on one device doesn't rule out playing on another device. Furthermore, it's simply not feasible for iOS and Android to completely satisfy someone like the Wii Sports fan because there is nothing comparable on those devices. And that right there is the catch and the reason for Nintendo success or failure; the Wii U is a rejection of the Wii spirit, highlighted by the different standard controllers for each console. The Wii could thrive regardless of what other companies did, because it couldn't be substituted. On the other hand, the Wii U is a worse PlayStation or Xbox thanks to its lackluster third party support. It doesn't matter that the Wii U is backwards compatible with Wii controllers, because everyone with half a brain knows that games won't be tailor-made for the Wii Remote in such a setup. But even if such games were made, it's outright insulting that people are forced to buy a new console for games that could have all been on the Wii they already own. That's why Nintendo gets the middle finger from consumers.

Your suggested best course of action is a trap that businesses commonly fall in, because it looks like the safest path. Focusing on your best consumers isn't a bad idea on the surface, but ultimately you are cutting off the pipeline for new consumers while your existing pool will most likely shrink with each passing year. You know, that's pretty much the reason why there is a continual decline in home console sales for Nintendo, because they kept going down that safe path. The exception to that trend is the Wii, but it's an irrefutable fact that for that console Nintendo took deliberate steps to open up the pipeline for new consumers.

So my suggestion is the creation of devices that can't be substituted (this includes with each other) and are easy to understand. You get the existing consumers on board by making sequels to established IPs, you get consumers of other devices on board due to the unique appeal of your hardware, you have the potential to create new gamers because now people might finally see something that interests them. Now how does Nintendo accomplish this?

In the handheld space, Nintendo is the only one left in town after Sony's exit. So by being a portable gaming device with physical buttons Nintendo is already in a unique position. What they have to do though is eliminating unnecessary things; something like stereoscopic 3D is a big no-no. And, of course, they have to put out software that possesses traits that can draw in new consumers. Being the only one doesn't mean much when there are no fresh new IPs.

In the home console space, Sony and Microsoft are very predictable. Dual analog controllers, gritty games, online multiplayer focus. The only other thing to keep in mind for Nintendo is that they have to avoid self-sabotage. There is an abundance of sales data, so they should have a good idea of what type of software is able to gain traction and reach beyond the consumer base they currently have and what type of software is time-consuming to make, yet doesn't shift hardware.

I guess maybe it seems like casuals don't want dedicated hardware because Nintendo made some mistakes but I honestly cannot see Wii U/3DS doing a whole lot better if they basically just made Wii 2 & DS 2, would Wii Sports/Wii Fit/Brain Training/Nintendogs have the same impact as they did back in 2005-2009. Wii/DS benefitted alot from being the right products at the right time, they had virtually no competition for this demographic. If smart devices were around back in 2005/2006 then Wii/DS likely would not have seen nearly as much success as they did.

It's not impossible, but it's very very unlikely Nintendo can win back this crowd in massive numbers, it's just hard to compete with free games on devices everybody already owns. Wii wasn't a massive success because people thought those were the hith quality games ever, they were successful because they were simple pick up and play games that were fun in a group setting. Paying  $200+ on hardware and $50-60 software is too much for these people now.

U didn't really explain tho what u think Nintendo should do next-gen, ur being very vague and just saying make hardware that is easy to understand and new ip that can draw in new consumers. How do they do this? What type of games do u believe will bring in this audience? Mini game compilations and fitness games won't do it for the console, that's been played out and is no longer new. Educational games/pet simulators on handhelds? Nope, once again played out and no longer new. Same goes for motion controls and touch screen gaming, they aren't new and every device has them, so what can Nintendo do to make their hardware/software seem new and fresh again to this demographic?



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

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It is near saturated in Japan. It might not even get to 3million (I hope I'm wrong!) Other places in the world it can still sell quite a bit more I think.



Playing Xenoblade 2 before I buy Xenoblade 3 (otherwise I couldn't wait to play 3).

Can they announce a new Fire Emblem? A remake of Genealogy or Tellius would suffice !

RolStoppable said:
zorg1000 said:

I guess maybe it seems like casuals don't want dedicated hardware because Nintendo made some mistakes but I honestly cannot see Wii U/3DS doing a whole lot better if they basically just made Wii 2 & DS 2, would Wii Sports/Wii Fit/Brain Training/Nintendogs have the same impact as they did back in 2005-2009. Wii/DS benefitted alot from being the right products at the right time, they had virtually no competition for this demographic. If smart devices were around back in 2005/2006 then Wii/DS likely would not have seen nearly as much success as they did.

It's not impossible, but it's very very unlikely Nintendo can win back this crowd in massive numbers, it's just hard to compete with free games on devices everybody already owns. Wii wasn't a massive success because people thought those were the hith quality games ever, they were successful because they were simple pick up and play games that were fun in a group setting. Paying  $200+ on hardware and $50-60 software is too much for these people now.

U didn't really explain tho what u think Nintendo should do next-gen, ur being very vague and just saying make hardware that is easy to understand and new ip that can draw in new consumers. How do they do this? What type of games do u believe will bring in this audience? Mini game compilations and fitness games won't do it for the console, that's been played out and is no longer new. Educational games/pet simulators on handhelds? Nope, once again played out and no longer new. Same goes for motion controls and touch screen gaming, they aren't new and every device has them, so what can Nintendo do to make their hardware/software seem new and fresh again to this demographic?

Well, no, those games wouldn't have had the same impact the second time around, but why should we restrict this hypothetical scenario to Nintendo pumping out only sequels instead of continuing to evolve? Not sure how anyone could think that the availability of smart devices in 2005/06 could have stopped the Wii success. As I've repeatedly pointed out, they simply don't work as substitutes, hence they wouldn't be able to challenge Nintendo. Even the DS wouldn't have been threatened much despite smart devices having touchscreen interfaces, because there is the first mover advantage in entertainment. That's why iPhone/iPad continue to persist in popularity despite numerous other companies entering the same market segment; and in this case we are talking about mostly technological competition while when it comes to games, simply offering better technology doesn't give you an automatic edge because video games are content driven. Remember how the PS3 plus Move fared. The difference between Apple and Nintendo in their respective fields is that Apple stuck to their guns while Nintendo voluntarily gave up their advantages, hence the different fortunes of these companies.

Wii was a success because people perceived Nintendo's software as high quality. This is easy to verify by looking at the Wii bestsellers list that is dominated by Nintendo games while third party clones didn't come anywhere close to matching Nintendo's heights. Part of that can be attributed to Nintendo's first mover advantage on the software side, but it's just as important that Nintendo games were of higher quality. It's very arrogant to claim that the "casual crowd" has no quality standards whatsoever. And again, your argument that they don't want dedicated hardware anymore is based on the failures of the Wii U and 3DS.

The type of games that bring in new consumers are ones that are easy to learn, but still offer substance. Dual analog controllers, gritty games, online multiplayer focus; these are the things that Sony and Microsoft do. What's vague about that? It means no dual analog controller, colorful games, offline multiplayer (competitive and co-operative) for Nintendo. The people who look down on the "casual crowd" always equate games for them with minigame compilations and the rest that you mentioned, but somehow the likes of Mario Kart and Super Mario Bros. don't count. Zelda could easily be transformed into a multiplayer spinoff with different classes and a basic level up system. Think of a mix between Four Swords Adventures and Hyrule Warriors: Four players, top-down perspective, no lame puzzles and thus focused on combat where the players help each other out with their different abilities. Doesn't need more than a d-pad and a few buttons to be played, but it would be awesome. That's the kind of stuff that put Nintendo on the map in the first place.

Also, motion controls aren't a dead end. When did sales of Nintendo games go down? It was in 2011 and after. When was the last time Nintendo made such games? The year before (Wii Party), but the more significant one (Wii Sports Resort) was a 2009 release. Sales decreased because supply of new content dried up; that's what happened, not people losing interest. And even if other companies would try to dabble in motion controls, their ability to compete with Nintendo quality is in serious doubt. Furthermore, trends come and go repeatedly in entertainment, so a down period doesn't necessarily mean death for an idea. Even if we assume that the audience has grown tired of motion controls (which we shouldn't, because the real cause for the decline is that Nintendo stopped making such games), by late 2016 it will have been already more than half a decade since the previous boom. After a hiatus things can easily feel fresh again, especially if previous shortcomings are cleaned up.


Im not saying smart devices would have stopped Wii/DS success but they would have affected it if the App Sotre/Google Play were prevalent around the time Wii/DS released. Also, I never said casual gamers have no standards for quality, I'm saying their opinion on what makes a quality game is something that is simple and offers fun gameplay for short periods of time. Having free/$1 games that are simple, fun and addicting has devalued gaming in a way. Why spend $60 on a game when I can get one for 1/60 the price and is just as fun?

Actually sales of Wii started to go down in 2009, this year had Wii Sport Resort, Wii Motion Plus, Wii Fit Plus, New Super Mario Bros Wii, Just Dance, $50 price cut yet sales went down 12% YoY. 2010 had Wii Party, Super Mario Galaxy 2, Donkey Kong Country Returns, Kirby Epic Yarn, Just Dance 2, Zumba Fitness and sales went down 18%. 2011 had Wii Play Motion, Kirby Return to Dreamland, Zelda: Skyward Sword, Skylanders, Just Dance 3, another $50 price cut and sales went down 33%. So the decline did in fact start well before Nintendo stopped supporting with high quality software.

Ur just saying having a simple to use controller and colorful, local multiplayer games will do the trick but there is no way in hell that is all it takes to have another Wii level success. By that logic, if Wii U launched at $250, used Motion Plus instead of the Gamepad and had games like Nintendo Land, Splatoon, Mario Maker in the launch window then Wii U would be selling like hotcakes. I agree it would be doing better in that scenario but to believe it would be on its way to Wii level success is just plain naive.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

I think they will end generation with about 20~ million sales below gamecube and N64...



SJReiter said:

Obviously, the Wii U will continue to sell at some rate throughout it's lifespan, but I can't help but wonder if November 2014 was the month that officially confirmed that the Wii U basically reached the limits of it's market saturation in the entire world

Fixed. WiiU is -50% YoY in Japan despite the great Smash 



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RolStoppable said:
zorg1000 said:

Im not saying smart devices would have stopped Wii/DS success but they would have affected it if the App Sotre/Google Play were prevalent around the time Wii/DS released. Also, I never said casual gamers have no standards for quality, I'm saying their opinion on what makes a quality game is something that is simple and offers fun gameplay for short periods of time. Having free/$1 games that are simple, fun and addicting has devalued gaming in a way. Why spend $60 on a game when I can get one for 1/60 the price and is just as fun?

Actually sales of Wii started to go down in 2009, this year had Wii Sport Resort, Wii Motion Plus, Wii Fit Plus, New Super Mario Bros Wii, Just Dance, $50 price cut yet sales went down 12% YoY. 2010 had Wii Party, Super Mario Galaxy 2, Donkey Kong Country Returns, Kirby Epic Yarn, Just Dance 2, Zumba Fitness and sales went down 18%. 2011 had Wii Play Motion, Kirby Return to Dreamland, Zelda: Skyward Sword, Skylanders, Just Dance 3, another $50 price cut and sales went down 33%. So the decline did in fact start well before Nintendo stopped supporting with high quality software.

Ur just saying having a simple to use controller and colorful, local multiplayer games will do the trick but there is no way in hell that is all it takes to have another Wii level success. By that logic, if Wii U launched at $250, used Motion Plus instead of the Gamepad and had games like Nintendo Land, Splatoon, Mario Maker in the launch window then Wii U would be selling like hotcakes. I agree it would be doing better in that scenario but to believe it would be on its way to Wii level success is just plain naive.

1) Yes, gaming got devalued by free games overall, but you understand that the free and low priced options can only really cut into the success of higher priced games that are similar, i.e. when the lower priced options work as substitutes, right? Everything that can't get substituted with free offerings can still thrive at premium prices.

2) You should consider the release timing of all those games you mentioned. For example, your 2009 list has only second half of the year releases, meaning that the entire first half had nothing worth of note; that's where the year over year decline comes from, a damning software drought that killed momentum. 2010 is similar along with the lineup having less system-selling power to begin with. 2011 was atrocious; I mean, the minigame compilation Wii Play Motion is the only game in your list that released before November of that year. But despite all of the aforementioned things, each of those years recorded at least 11m of sales. It's perfectly reasonable to suggest that a more consistent release schedule along with a continued push to create new IPs would have resulted in higher Wii sales in each of those three years. Think about it, the Wii managed 11m in 2011 on the back of an awfully sparse lineup; the appeal of the system was far from dead at that point, but Nintendo made it dead by scaling back support in order to prepare for the ill-conceived Wii U.

3) Now you are changing what the point of contention was. Let me remind you: You believed that the best strategy going forward is to cater to existing consumers that bought Wii Us and 3DSes and give them what they want with the follow-up systems. I disagreed with that because it's very likely going to lead to a continued erosion of Nintendo's consumer base (historical trends point that way), so my task was not to lay out a strategy that matches or exceeds Wii and DS levels of success, but one that beats your suggested strategy that would top out at a Wii U+3DS level installed base because Nintendo would be looking inwards with (virtually) no thoughts lost on increasing their consumer base.

1. I agree that u can't substitute everything with free phone/tablet games, hence why PS/XB are largely unaffected. U can't simulate these AAA titles on phones/tablets. But when it comes to the type of games that made Wii/DS successful, yes they are able to substitute them. We have already agreed that the type of games that Wii/DS had were games with simple to understand controls/concepts and focused on light-hearted fun. That is exactly what type of games are on phones/tablets, games like Angry Birds, Cut the Rope, Doodle Jump, Candy Crush Saga, Minecraft all fit into this category. No, u can't get the exact same experience out of Wii and iPhone but that doesn't matter, as long as games are simple, fun and addicting then this demographic of gamers is happy to simply play games at a very low cost on the devices they own regardless of gaming.

2. I'll agree with u to an extent on this one, scaling back on games outside of the holidays did hurt the Wii image but I think it's a combination of Nintendo's mistakes and the rise of smart devices that have killed the Wii brand. If Nintendo had kept up strong support all year round in 2009-2011 then the decline would very likely have been smaller so maybe Nintendo in a way helped out the rise of gaming on smart devices when people got sick of only getting a few big games a year with most of them coming during the holidays.

3. I thought u were suggesting if Wii U had a simple controller and colorful, local multiplayer games then Wii U would be selling like Wii, that's my bad. So overall I agree with u on some points, had Nintendo giving Wii strong, year round support from 2009 onwards and made Wii U more accessible with a better lineup than yes I believe it would be doing quite a bit better but still only a moderate success like GC-N64 level sales.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

Yep, this was always, and obviously, going to be the case. Why? Look at the sales of the core Nintendo games on the Wii. SSBB only sold 15 million, Zelda sold a lot less. Using these games as a gauge as to separate the casual gamers from the core Nintendo fans, it was obvious the console was only ever going to sell 15 -20 million units, at best. A lot of people here worked on the idea that hardware sales would be a total of software sales i.e. SSBB + Mario Karts + mario Bros + Zelda. In reality it's the same person who buys all four games, and therefore it was clear as day that unless Nintendo had either strong 3rd party support or new IP's, the Wii U was never going to sell well.