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Forums - Nintendo - Pokemon can be so much more.

Player2 said:
Dr.Henry_Killinger said:
 

Look, I actually know the costs that go into video game development, not budget which includes stuff like marketting, distribution, and server fees, asset creation is the most expensive of what goes into actually making the game.

Climbing mountains, sailing oceans, flying unmanned skies are all different ways of saying traverssing a map. It incoporates modelling of terrain, textures, creating physics and lighting effects etc. However, that is nothing compared to making hundreds of animations for thousands of models. There is a reason  COD has 100s of modelers at one time on it. Those modellers cost a lot of money.

Activision can do can do whatever they want with their money. Fighting games have thousands of animations with highly detailed models and we know DOA 5 made a profit with ~600K copies.

Pokemon doesn't need hundreds of animations for thousand of models because pokemons can learn only a 70-80 moves on average (most of them are NFE forms with a very limited movepool) and I think Game Freak is smart enought to not waste time and money trying to make a Mega Punch animation for Caterpie. Plus we don't need different animations for every buff move out there either.

Unless by that you're referring to the content needed to fill this new world of epic scale, but then you'd be pretty much agreeing with me.

No no no you've completely misunderstood.

1. Fighting games do not have thousands of animations for each character model. Notice I said hundreds of Animations not Thousands, if a game had thousands of animations per model that would be really stupid.

2. With the 3D games the change from 2D sprites to 3D animated models was expensive. And most of those pokemon have a handful of animations, idle, and maybe a handful of animations like attack or idle, super imposed with effect to compose an attack. For a real time pokemon, every pokemon would need a lot more animations then prior. They could probably get away with there effect technique but this won't work.

3. Content is a blanket term that doesn't mean anything with regards to actual game design. Like any game the cost would be in the creation of new assets. The bulk of which would be new models and new animations for those models.



In this day and age, with the Internet, ignorance is a choice! And they're still choosing Ignorance! - Dr. Filthy Frank

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Dr.Henry_Killinger said:

No no no you've completely misunderstood.

1. Fighting games do not have thousands of animations for each character model. Notice I said hundreds of Animations not Thousands, if a game had thousands of animations per model that would be really stupid.

2. With the 3D games the change from 2D sprites to 3D animated models was expensive. And most of those pokemon have a handful of animations, idle, and maybe a handful of animations like attack or idle, super imposed with effect to compose an attack. For a real time pokemon, every pokemon would need a lot more animations then prior. They could probably get away with there effect technique but this won't work.

3. Content is a blanket term that doesn't mean anything with regards to actual game design. Like any game the cost would be in the creation of new assets. The bulk of which would be new models and new animations for those models.


Would that many animations for that many models be too ambitious to be realistic?



Dr.Henry_Killinger said:
Player2 said:
Dr.Henry_Killinger said:
 

Look, I actually know the costs that go into video game development, not budget which includes stuff like marketting, distribution, and server fees, asset creation is the most expensive of what goes into actually making the game.

Climbing mountains, sailing oceans, flying unmanned skies are all different ways of saying traverssing a map. It incoporates modelling of terrain, textures, creating physics and lighting effects etc. However, that is nothing compared to making hundreds of animations for thousands of models. There is a reason  COD has 100s of modelers at one time on it. Those modellers cost a lot of money.

Activision can do can do whatever they want with their money. Fighting games have thousands of animations with highly detailed models and we know DOA 5 made a profit with ~600K copies.

Pokemon doesn't need hundreds of animations for thousand of models because pokemons can learn only a 70-80 moves on average (most of them are NFE forms with a very limited movepool) and I think Game Freak is smart enought to not waste time and money trying to make a Mega Punch animation for Caterpie. Plus we don't need different animations for every buff move out there either.

Unless by that you're referring to the content needed to fill this new world of epic scale, but then you'd be pretty much agreeing with me.

No no no you've completely misunderstood.

1. Fighting games do not have thousands of animations for each character model. Notice I said hundreds of Animations not Thousands, if a game had thousands of animations per model that would be really stupid.

2. With the 3D games the change from 2D sprites to 3D animated models was expensive. And most of those pokemon have a handful of animations, idle, and maybe a handful of animations like attack or idle, super imposed with effect to compose an attack. For a real time pokemon, every pokemon would need a lot more animations then prior. They could probably get away with there effect technique but this won't work.

3. Content is a blanket term that doesn't mean anything with regards to actual game design. Like any game the cost would be in the creation of new assets. The bulk of which would be new models and new animations for those models.

Where did I say thousands per character? Point 1 still stands.

You want a game with thousands of animations per model? WWE games. And they make a profit with less than 2M sold. Character detail is lower than in your average 3D fighter, but it's still way above anything Pokemon-related so far.

Of course content is a blanket term, because I don't know what's in Spemanig's head. But assuming that everything has be made from scratch is quite a safe bet because it doesn't seem to include characters still being 1/5 the size of a house.



spemanig said:
Smear-Gel said:
Eh, the "open world pokemon of all regions/pokemon mmo" idea is asked all the time and always dumb for reasons I cant go into now but will when I get on a better computer.


I never said all regions and I never said MMO. Pokemon is already open world, so I really don't see much to "go into."


But it's Destiny-like?

Mis-read on all regions though, my bad.



Player2 said:

Where did I say thousands per character? Point 1 still stands.

You want a game with thousands of animations per model? WWE games. And they make a profit with less than 2M sold. Character detail is lower than in your average 3D fighter, but it's still way above anything Pokemon-related so far.

Of course content is a blanket term, because I don't know what's in Spemanig's head. But assuming that everything has be made from scratch is quite a safe bet because it doesn't seem to include characters still being 1/5 the size of a house.

If that is the case then it is entirely different. A couple thousand animations is completely different from a hundred animations for thousands of models. Saying character is meaningless because every playable character will have a model and for that model to be actively doing things it needs animations.

1. WWE Games do not have thousands of animations per model.

2. No game would have thousands of animations for a model cause that would make no sense.

3. The most expensive part of video game creation is Asset Creation, this is the main difference between indies and AAAs, there are a lot more resources and assets that can be created.

4. The majority of assets that would need to be created would be models and animations for those models, this is specifically for pokemon, nothing else in making this game would cost this much. The game's "huge scale" means nothing...

5. I know this.

6. Just because a game has big scale and is filled with content doesn't mean anything with regards to game development.



In this day and age, with the Internet, ignorance is a choice! And they're still choosing Ignorance! - Dr. Filthy Frank

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spemanig said:
Dr.Henry_Killinger said:

No no no you've completely misunderstood.

1. Fighting games do not have thousands of animations for each character model. Notice I said hundreds of Animations not Thousands, if a game had thousands of animations per model that would be really stupid.

2. With the 3D games the change from 2D sprites to 3D animated models was expensive. And most of those pokemon have a handful of animations, idle, and maybe a handful of animations like attack or idle, super imposed with effect to compose an attack. For a real time pokemon, every pokemon would need a lot more animations then prior. They could probably get away with there effect technique but this won't work.

3. Content is a blanket term that doesn't mean anything with regards to actual game design. Like any game the cost would be in the creation of new assets. The bulk of which would be new models and new animations for those models.


Would that many animations for that many models be too ambitious to be realistic?

It is entirely possible to do it by say procedural generation or making pokemon into individual size classes. But to personalize it to each pokemon would take considerable time and money. They are tricks to also create animations automatically, but again you have that variety and personalization problem.



In this day and age, with the Internet, ignorance is a choice! And they're still choosing Ignorance! - Dr. Filthy Frank

spemanig said:
VanceIX said:

Well, we both seem to disagree on the fundamental core of what Pokemon is and should be, so I'll leave this now.


What is the fundamental core of Pokemon to you?

A contained story with the playable character at the center of it, with turn-based strategy combat. If I wanted a truly open world, I would go play Skyrim. A real time, open world Pokemon would have so much potential to fail it wouldn't even be funny. Who do you think is going to program 800+ Pokemon animations, especially when each can have 60+ moves? It's too much for any development team, and bound to fail.



                                                                                                               You're Gonna Carry That Weight.

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VanceIX said:

A contained story with the playable character at the center of it, with turn-based strategy combat. If I wanted a truly open world, I would go play Skyrim. A real time, open world Pokemon would have so much potential to fail it wouldn't even be funny. Who do you think is going to program 800+ Pokemon animations, especially when each can have 60+ moves? It's too much for any development team, and bound to fail.


Skyrim is a very different game than Pokémon. An open world Consol Pokémon game would play absolutely nothing like a Pokémon game. As for your point on its potential to fail, of course it has the potential to fail. Any ambitious project would. But what I am describing is all under the assumption that it is done well. A real time, open world Pokémon done right would, In my opinion, be an exponentially more satisfying experience then anything any game has ever accomplished before. Of course it is ambitious and of course they would need a huge development team with a huge budget and laser focus and polish, but just because something is difficult doesn't mean that it is impossible. And it doesn't mean that it's unrealistic either. You seem to not think that the game wouldn't work conceptually, but that it couldn't be created realistically. Would you Be against the game I described if it didn't fail? If a team actually were able to make the 800+ Pokémon animations, each having a diverse move pool to also animate, and it was polished and balanced just like the handheld games, would you ignore it because it's not turn-based?



Dr.Henry_Killinger said:

It is entirely possible to do it by say procedural generation or making pokemon into individual size classes. But to personalize it to each pokemon would take considerable time and money. They are tricks to also create animations automatically, but again you have that variety and personalization problem.

That does seem to be the biggest issue. Animations are the most important thing in a game like this. I can't imagine a way that they could cut corners and have it not be noticeable. Certain Pokémon with similar body types like lucario and mewtwo could have similar animations for punch and kick moves, but when it comes to the way it's Pokémon move, I imagine a lot of it must be different species by species. 



spemanig said:
VanceIX said:

A contained story with the playable character at the center of it, with turn-based strategy combat. If I wanted a truly open world, I would go play Skyrim. A real time, open world Pokemon would have so much potential to fail it wouldn't even be funny. Who do you think is going to program 800+ Pokemon animations, especially when each can have 60+ moves? It's too much for any development team, and bound to fail.


Skyrim is a very different game than Pokémon. An open world Consol Pokémon game would play absolutely nothing like a Pokémon game. As for your point on its potential to fail, of course it has the potential to fail. Any ambitious project would. But what I am describing is all under the assumption that it is done well. A real time, open world Pokémon done right would, In my opinion, be an exponentially more satisfying experience then anything any game has ever accomplished before. Of course it is ambitious and of course they would need a huge development team with a huge budget and laser focus and polish, but just because something is difficult doesn't mean that it is impossible. And it doesn't mean that it's unrealistic either. You seem to not think that the game wouldn't work conceptually, but that it couldn't be created realistically. Would you Be against the game I described if it didn't fail? If a team actually were able to make the 800+ Pokémon animations, each having a diverse move pool to also animate, and it was polished and balanced just like the handheld games, would you ignore it because it's not turn-based?

You're just not being realistic here. There are over 800 pokemon, and tons of moves for each. To program animations for all of those would take years, not to mention the cost of developing the world and coming up with a new combat system.

Any such ambitious project is bound to crash and burn, and will be riddled with bugs to boot.

Any way, you obviously won't be dissuaded, so I'll bow out here.



                                                                                                               You're Gonna Carry That Weight.

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