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Forums - Politics Discussion - Islamic State murder British aid worker

Kyuu said:
SlayerRondo said:
MohammadBadir said:

Holy shit the Islamaphobia in here is real.

A false, violent and contradictory religion that was contrived by the mind of a delusional warmongering pedophile that some people take seriously does frighten me somewhat.

But I guess that makes you an Islamaphobicphobic.

Just you blabbering words isn't going to make what you're saying true. I asked whether you knew how the narrations were compiled, you completely dodged the question because you know you don't.. (yet you call Muhammad a pedophile, a belief that derives from an "Ahad Hadith")

We're all ignorant about plenty of things which is fine! But what's totally wrong is when one claims knowledge in things they are ignorant about. Well, this is what you're doing..

Here are a few violent passages.

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...

but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful.   And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone.  But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"  (Translation is from the Noble Quran)

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."


Quran (8:67) - "It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land..."

Also Muhammed got his start in the field of warfare by butchering Jewish villages.



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SlayerRondo said:

Here are a few violent passages.

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...

but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful.   And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone.  But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"  (Translation is from the Noble Quran)

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."


Quran (8:67) - "It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land..."

Also Muhammed got his start in the field of warfare by butchering Jewish villages.

 

1- " And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers."

The two bolded line clearly shows that this is all an act of self defence.

2- Again, you need to understand the historical fram of the event. "flee in the way of Allah"  is a refrence to famous immigration that heppen when muslimes were slaughtered and expelled from their homeland Maka. The Surah is talking about a group of people who pretended to be muslims but they actually fight Islam from within the Islamic soicity. They are recongized by not immegrating to Madina. Again self defence.

3- The prophet actually have let go of the war prisoners, that's why the Surah says that he shouldn't have prisoned and freed them in the first place, because they will just fight you again.

4-  Not true

I encourage you to read about the history of prophet Muhammad, He never started a war, not even once. All of the "violent passages" describe a time of war, in which Muslims were always defending themselves.

Edit: How any of that is even comparable to what ISIS is doing ?, they are just killing everone who isn't like them, even muslims.



SlayerRondo said:

Here are a few violent passages.

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...

but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful.   And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone.  But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"  (Translation is from the Noble Quran)

looks like ISIS doesn't follow that one as I heard the next american they want to behead is muslim (converted)

VXIII said:

I encourage you to read about the history of prophet Muhammad, He never started a war, not even once. All of the "violent passages" describe a time of war, in which Muslims were always defending themselves.

Edit: How any of that is even comparable to what ISIS is doing ?, they are just killing everone who isn't like them, even muslims.

hehe, oh, I bet the ISIS is only defending themselves against evil invaders and traitors from within



VXIII said:

1- " And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers."

The two bolded line clearly shows that this is all an act of self defence.

The tribe had already relocated to medina and rather than trying to peacefully spread the word they used violence

2- Again, you need to understand the historical fram of the event. "flee in the way of Allah"  is a refrence to famous immigration that heppen when muslimes were slaughtered and expelled from their homeland Maka. The Surah is talking about a group of people who pretended to be muslims but they actually fight Islam from within the Islamic soicity. They are recongized by not immegrating to Madina. Again self defence.

It is nowhere near as specific as you claim it to be.

3- The prophet actually have let go of the war prisoners, that's why the Surah states that you shouldn't have prisoned and freed them in the first place, because they will just fight you again.

So its just the Quran thats violent and not Muhammed?

4-  Not true

I encourage you to read about the history of prophet Muhammad, He never started a war, not even once. All of the "violent passages" describe a time of war, in which Muslims were always defending themselves.

The siege of Banu Qurayza was a clear example of Muhammed condoning the beheading of all male adults and having the women and children taken as slaves. That is a completely despicable act and shows the Muhammed was not a prophet of the devine but rather a product of the times.

He also took to raiding caravans from Mecca which does not seem very prophet like.

And also the ambiguity of the verses just goes to show hom unbelievable the Quran actually is that people can have multiple valid interpritations, some of which will clearly lead to violence by the devout. Would a god really be so incredibly foolish?





This is the Game of Thrones

Where you either win

or you DIE

Kyuu said:
MoHasanie said:
That's so sad. We need to eliminate these people and all the people who support them.


I disagree with the second part. A lot of people support ISIS out of ignorance (either ignorance of what ISIS does, or ignorance that Shia and non-Muslim powers are more brutal. You know, temporarily accepting evil for the greater good and such? well some people think that works..) Despicable as it may be, eliminating them is too strong an action and it will do nothing more than justifying extremism to grow stronger.

When some radical Shia in Iraq finally began "responding" to the radical Sunni attacks following the destruction of two Shia Imam shrines in Samaraa in 2006. All it did is radicalizing some of the peaceful Sunnis as well. A Sunni child who lost his family will not think of what triggered this craze. All he knows is that a "Shia" turned his life into a hell. Little does he know that the Shia militant himself suffered a horrible history too.

You have to find some effective ways to educate people.. Ignorance has and will always be the first problem. I don't believe the western powers are sincere about offering help, it feels to me that some of them enjoy the instability of the region.

Yes I agree with you. I'm not sure how this problem can be solved. Education would certainly help but its a long term solution. They only way I think they can stop Sunni and Shia violence, at least in Iraq, is by splitting the country into three separate states for the Shiites, Sunnis, and Kurds. 



    

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SlayerRondo said:

VXIII said:

1- " And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers."

The two bolded line clearly shows that this is all an act of self defence.

2- Again, you need to understand the historical fram of the event. "flee in the way of Allah"  is a refrence to famous immigration that heppen when muslimes were slaughtered and expelled from their homeland Maka. The Surah is talking about a group of people who pretended to be muslims but they actually fight Islam from within the Islamic soicity. They are recongized by not immegrating to Madina. Again self defence.

3- The prophet actually have let go of the war prisoners, that's why the Surah states that you shouldn't have prisoned and freed them in the first place, because they will just fight you again.

4-  Not true

I encourage you to read about the history of prophet Muhammad, He never started a war, not even once. All of the "violent passages" describe a time of war, in which Muslims were always defending themselves.

 

 

 

 

1. The tribe had already relocated to medina and rather than trying to peacefully spread the word they used violence

2. It is nowhere near as specific as you claim it to be.

3. So its just the Quran thats violent and not Muhammed?

4. The siege of Banu Qurayza was a clear example of Muhammed condoning the beheading of all male adults and having the women and children taken as slaves. That is a completely despicable act and shows the Muhammed was not a prophet of the devine but rather a product of the times.

He also took to raiding caravans from Mecca which does not seem very prophet like.

And also the ambiguity of the verses just goes to show hom unbelievable the Quran actually is that people can have multiple valid interpritations, some of which will clearly lead to violence by the devout. Would a god really be so incredibly foolish?

 

 


I had to change the format, I hate when people add their replay in the same post, so confusing for me... Anyways:

1 - Violence in self defence, yes. The Surah is clear about that. Why do you ignore that ?

2 - True, That's why having knowledge about the circumstances surrounding the event is important, feel free to check the validity of what I tell you.

3- You keep ignoring the true meaning and taking things out of context , It is a war agains muslims, the Surah says kill who tries to kill you and don't take prisoners, they will just fight you again.

4- Banu Qurayza betrayed the alliance with muslims and conspired agaist theIslam. Only warriors were killed. Here is a small text from Bukhari book.

"The Prophet said, "O Sad! These people have agreed to accept your verdict." Sad said, "I judge that their warriors should be killed and their children and women should be taken as captives." The Prophet said, "You have given a judgment similar to Allah's Judgment (or the King's judgment)."Sahih al-Bukhari,"

Again, Please read about the Islamic history, don't just read to people who criticize it.



glad the us and allies are bombing the heck out of these hellish barbarians.



Kyuu said:

The main problem within islam (in my opinion) is that people take every Hadith (narrations attributed to Muhammad) too serouisly. A lot of Hadith are immediately contradictory with the Quran as well as with other Hadith even when a context is provided.

Out of curiosity, do you know anything about how these "Hadith" were compiled?

They were compiled from oral reports of people claiming that they knew the prophet's sayings and teachings. But it was all collected after the death of the prophet so some might not be accurate. The most reliable is the collection written by Bukhari. I believe many of the hadith sayings and statements have been verified but there are still a few which may not be right. Also Shia and Sunni people don't follow all the same ones. They select the ones they follow based on who it was said by, or who it refers to. The different interpretations have caused differences of worship practices and rules between the two sects. 



    

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VXIII said:

1- " And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers."

The two bolded line clearly shows that this is all an act of self defence.


This sounds a lot like what Israel has been doing since 1948.

I take it that Muslims around the world approve of Israel, since it has expelled people from the places that they expelled the Jews from, and it kills whoever threatens it with violence? It's just self-defence and taking back what is theirs.

It would be pretty hypocritical if they were to condemn Israel for doing exactly what the Koran tells Muslims to do.



Qwark said:

Belgium even has an activist group called Sharia for Belgium, well luckily the EU is way to secure to let something let that happen and way to slow at changing it laws :D. 


The netherlands have a sharia group and i believe england has one too.Sadly our freedom of speech laws are so strong that they can spit alot of hate around against our western culture before the goverment shuts them up. And alot of muslims here in Belgium are really dissatisfied at them for giving such an extreme image of the islam and dividing the groups of different cultures here even more, cause most of them just want to live peacefully but the media only seems to give the bad ones screentime.