By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Gaming Discussion - The Xbox One: A Lying Failure Machine

S.T.A.G.E. on 22 July 2014
BMaker11 said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
LudicrousSpeed said:
NobleTeam360 said:

So listening to what the consumer demands is a bad thing.......

Well you see, if it suits your agenda, you could easily call listening to the consumer "doing the bare minimum" or "doing what they had to do so xbox would still exist" or some equally silly attempt to distance their actions and intent from trying to provide a product consumers will buy.

Still scratching my head at people saying MS lied or that they deserve an apology. These companies change policies and strategies all the time and I never see an apology. In fact the only two times in my decades of gaming that I remember apologies are the RROD and the PSN hacking fiasco, and both of those warranted apologies. Believing your Kinect product to be a great piece of tech that gamers will want and developers will utilize and finding out neither are particularly true is not something that warrants a damn apology LOL. Kind of like Sony calling rumble a "last gen feature" and then quickly coming out with a rumble controller.. there didn't need to be an apology packed inside each Dualshock 3.

 


MS wasnt listening to anyone but themselves. It wasnt until Gamestop lowered Microsofts preorder numbers that they changed their ways.

You've said this a couple times in this thread, and I'm a little confused about it. How did Gamestop "lower the preorder numbers"? Did they just stop taking preorders for a time? Or did they literally "lower the numbers" and provide false data to MS to put them into a scare? Because it's not like I could go into a store, put money down on an XBone and then they say "no".

Gamestop at first didnt even take MS preorders, then they started taking them and capped it stating there was high demand. After MS dropped DRM Gamestop was overjoyed and applauded them for finally accepting that there is a used game market and remarkably the preorder numbers started to be lifted citing increased demand (even though Microsofts shipment numbers were lower.). Gamestop didnt need to cap anything, they were holding MS by the nuts. They admitted long ago that Sony had higher shipments and Microsoft with higher demand to boot. Microsofts azure DRM network would've caused gamers who paid for used games to pay a fee, which completely threatened Gamestop and dropped their stock levels.

“The very first thing I thought was that gamer won, yet again,” he told Forbes. “We knew, but I don’t think the rest of the world knew how passionate the gamer was about the buy/sell/trade model. [Sony's E3 Press conference] was a shot heard round the world. Microsoft heard that, they listened to that, and they changed their policies. I think it took a lot courage to do what they did.”- Bartel of Gamestop

Also followed by...

"Stern Agee analyst Arvind Bhatia reiterated a buy rating on Gamestop stock yesterday, though the Street recently downgraded from “buy” to “hold.” The stock has seen a 5% increase so far today."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johngaudiosi/2013/06/14/gamestop-president-tony-bartel-believes-used-games-playback-will-play-key-role-in-next-gen-console-war/

In other words because MS dropped DRM, Gamestops stocks rose because MS was responsible for Gamestops stock dropping in the first place.

Other links

http://www.thetechgame.com/News/sid=4747/c=182636/gamestop-applauds-microsoft-for-xbox-one-drm-revision.html



Around the Network
Machiavellian on 22 July 2014
BMaker11 said:
TheSting said:

It needed a firmware download to remove it. If it was easy to remove it would not have shipped with it. How much work was put into removing?

Why do games ship with Day 1 patches to up the rez to 1080p? They let the games go gold knowing full well they could just have it run at 1080p, but they still release and patch it the moment you insert the disc into the console. Clearly they have the code to apply it to the game beforehand, since they announce months in advance that the patch is released the day the game releases (when, in those months, they could just make the game 1080p on the disc), but they just don't apply it.

So, to answer your question: I have no clue how much work they put into it, but it doesn't mean they put a whole lot into it just because DRM was still on the console when the console launched

Actually thats not correct.  Games that come with day one patch mean that the changes needed could not be added before the Gold master is sent to production.  People forget their is a huge machine that goes into getting software and hardware into your hands.  Usually they have a process and timeline.  Missing those timelines would be very costly because a lot of marketing, hardware and software allocations and money spent is wrapped up in the process.

From my experience, I believe MS had to scrap a good portion of their OS security.  The 24 hour check was probably deeply integrated with how the X1 was made.  Just removing such a piece probably would introduce a hell of a lot of code especially if the security touched a lot of the OS when running games.  MS not only changed the DRM but they had to change how games would run since you had to install the game first.  It was not setup to run from disk as once installed you could literly throw the disk away.



sales2099 on 22 July 2014
wilco said:
I'm glad that MS has reversed their policies but I agree with Sterling, they shouldn't be treated like they have done consumers a favor by reversing policies that would have destroyed them.

The thing that still annoys me is that MS has never really come out and just clearly stated that they were wrong. Without that I just don't know if I can ever trust them again. Hearing MS unequivocally state that their original plans were ignorant and foolish is the only way that I will believe that they truly recognized the error of their ways. If they don't recognize that they did anything wrong then who is to say they won't go down this path again?

Trust? It is weird that you'd trust ANY corporation.

But let me get this straight.....you trusted Microsoft when they were the monopolistic mega-entity of the 90's, you trusted Xbox after it only lasted 4 years, you trusted 360 after the RROD thing, but this just goes too far. Doing policies that were cancelled a month after they were announced. Trust bond broken.

You aren't the first Ive read say something like this. I just want to point out how silly that sounds, that this subject is the last straw when it never even came to pass.

They fired Don, changed their polocies, and even cancelled the Xbox Entertainment division to focus back completely on games. You don't need a PR conference to baby you and hold your hand. They changed through their actions and you don't need a PR spokesperson to tell you that



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

WhiteEaglePL on 22 July 2014

lalalalalallalalalalaalalalalal buthurt pumpkins.

- Moderated, Carl



sales2099 on 22 July 2014
BMaker11 said:
sales2099 said:
Don't know how hard it is for some people to recognize the console, as it stands now, is a great machine and is only improving further. Most of the issues of E3 2013 didn't even make it to the final product.

I can't see the video, but I have an idea. I mean some people........just get over it. The people won and made a difference. Just seems like another kicking-while-down tactic meant to bolster "the competition", hence the click bait title.

Read the thread. Nobody in here (that agrees with the video) is disagreeing with this. Sterling (guy in the video) isn't even disagreeing with this.

What they're taking issue is that MS hiding behind the guise of "choice" and "listening to the consumer" when in actuality, it was capitulation to the circumstances. They're not owning up to their mistakes. They're not saying "we screwed up", they're saying "we're giving you options now".

You better believe that if the XBone was at 8.6M and PS4 was at 4.9M, Kinect would still be bundled, despite it obviously not "being integral to Xbox One" like the motherboard, chips, ram, power cable, etc. are, as MS claimed. "If it sold that much, people 'want' Kinect", sounds like a good potential rebuttal, but that would mean that MS doesn't care about "giving consumers options" when the machine obviously works without the peripheral, but still force a bundle.

Offcourse I believe that whoever is #1 can and will be lazy and more self serving. You'll see some of that in the coming years ;)

But my point is that one and the other go hand in hand. The capitulation of circumstances forced them to listen and give options. Layoffs = we screwed up. You don't need a PR statement to tell you that.



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

Around the Network
sales2099 on 22 July 2014
eva01beserk said:
daredevil.shark said:


But my comment still holds. Dual 1080p native resolution output for PS3. CGI graphics. Lol. Sony lied big time. Sony did the biggest false marketing in the history of gaming. Compared to PS3; Xbox One seems a small pinkie lie.

"Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it."     ------George Santayana

Your right sony did make that mistake. But does that give ms the right to do the same?(I see what ms is doing much worst but whatever). The worst part is that it was  amistake done by someone else and still they did not learn from it wich is why consumers dont seem to forget and wont let ms of the hook. So for people who keep saying hat sony did years ago, its even worst that ms did knowing it failed before but still arrogantly enouff did it anyways.

Actually yes, it does. Everyone has to make their own mistakes to learn. Life doesn't work like that where someone learns a lesson merely by observing someone else learning it. It always sticks better when its more personal.

Actually, since MS's mistakes never actually made it to the consoles launch, it technically isn't worse then PS3's early woes....which did make it to launch.



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

sales2099 on 22 July 2014
Captain_Tom said:
sales2099 said:

Yawn with the comparing. MS, in order to keep Xbox in business, was forced to "listen" to see what the consumers want. Because all updates and features after launch were a direct result of listening.

Sure.  They were forced to listen, they did not decide to because they always put consumers first like they wanted us to believe they did.

All corporations want us to believe the customer are #1. Some are just better at smoke and mirrors then others. Point being, whatever the motivation, we can both agree that MS is now listening to their consumers.



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

Machiavellian on 22 July 2014
Aura7541 said:
Machiavellian said:
Aura7541 said:
To build up on my analogy earlier, the difference between me in the analogy and MS is that MS took the wrong path repeatedly. What is even worse is that MS tried to justify it. We all saw the infamous Angry Joe interview with Major Nelson. And ugh... the infamous "We have a product for people who can't get online, it's called Xbox 360" quote by Don Mattrick really crossed the line.

Let's compare this to, for example, Freedom Wars being released in retail in Europe. Vita fans complained to SCEE that they want the physical game and thus, Sony responded in a timely fashion. Huge difference between these two scenarios. (Note that I'm NOT saying Sony listens to consumers and MS does not. I'm merely providing examples to point out the differences between listening to consumers vs listening to consumers after not listening to them initially).

Could you clarify on MS going down the wrong path repeatedly.  Are we talking about the X1 or in general.

@Bolded:  Oh I totally agree with those being a very bad moment in PR from MS.  Don statement was just plain dumb and Larry was complete ignorance.  

@2nd Bolded:  I am not sure I see the difference.  Before E3, how did consumers get a chance to tell MS they were on the wrong page.  It was during E3 that everything was revealed.  During and after E3 MS received constant info from cunsumers, bloggers and press that gamers were unhappy with the console direction.  What is the difference then what you just wrote.  Sony released a game without a disk, gamers complained they wanted a disk, Sony gave them a disk.  In your analogy, Sony would never have released the game without a physical copy because they would have known gamers wanted it.

Would not your analogy be correct if MS released the X1 exactly how they advertised it at E3 after getting constant feedback from consumers that they did not want this type of console then change it up.

@1st Bolded. I'm talking about the X1.

@ 2nd Bolded. If you read the the text inside the parantheses, you'll find your answer. The difference was the time it took for Sony and MS to react. One company took a significantly shorter time to react than the other.

How was MS response or how timly they reacted not fast.  E3 2013 was June 11 - 13.  MS made their policy change June 19th.  How fast do you think it takes to completly change your policy and direction for a product that was years in the making.

I also have to say that the 2 scenerios are not equal.  Sony only needed to provide a disc for a game, MS has to throw out basically everything they wanted to do which I am sure cost them millions.  If we are going to compare scenerios that could be on the same level then the PS hack would be it.  It took Sony 2 weeks before they confirmed there was a hack and that customer info was compromised.  Both scenerios cost both companies millions.



Machiavellian on 22 July 2014
sales2099 said:
eva01beserk said:
daredevil.shark said:
 


But my comment still holds. Dual 1080p native resolution output for PS3. CGI graphics. Lol. Sony lied big time. Sony did the biggest false marketing in the history of gaming. Compared to PS3; Xbox One seems a small pinkie lie.

"Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it."     ------George Santayana

Your right sony did make that mistake. But does that give ms the right to do the same?(I see what ms is doing much worst but whatever). The worst part is that it was  amistake done by someone else and still they did not learn from it wich is why consumers dont seem to forget and wont let ms of the hook. So for people who keep saying hat sony did years ago, its even worst that ms did knowing it failed before but still arrogantly enouff did it anyways.

Actually yes, it does. Everyone has to make their own mistakes to learn. Life doesn't work like that where someone learns a lesson merely by observing someone else learning it. It always sticks better when its more personal.

Actually, since MS's mistakes never actually made it to the consoles launch, it technically isn't worse then PS3's early woes....which did make it to launch.

When you have kids, you learn this point big time.  My wife and I always wonder why our son must experience his own mistakes even thought we have told him and showed examples before he listen.



sales2099 on 22 July 2014
BMaker11 said:
Machiavellian said:

I want you to read the bolded part of what I wrote and than think about about what you just posted.  Did you understand what I was asking.  I will reiterate it again.  I could not find anyone from MS that stated they could not change the 24hr check or that Kinect support could not be removed.  

What you just stated was the original policy and the X1 software.  No one is arguing what the original policy was we all know that part.  The question is where did MS lie to consumers.  People specificly stated they believe MS owe them an apology for lying.  The post I was responding to stated that MS lied about not being able to remove the DRM and Kinect.  What you posted has absolutly nothing I was commenting on and is something totally different.  In discussions like these people need to read everything as you lose context of what is being discussed.

Major Nelson said you "can't flip a switch" and turn off DRM since "the console was built around it"

Phil Harrison said "Xbox One is Kinect. They aren't separate systems" which implies that removal was impossible. It'd be akin to removing the RAM and expecting the system to still work

edit: and if you take "you can't flip a switch" to mean "it's not that the DRM is unable to change, it's that it'll take hard work and time to change it", well, first off, they literally did just "flip a switch". E3 2013 was June 11-13, the 180 happened on the 19th of the same month. And if the console was "built around it", it implies that it can't be changed. Wii was built around motion controls....you couldn't just "flip a switch" and get rid of the Wii mote. PS3 was built around blu-ray and high capacity games. You couldn't just "flip a switch" and get rid of Blu-ray. That's what "built around" means.

Cutting the PR crap, they are merely part of a hierarchy and it was their job to stay behind their product and what it stood for at the time. Until authorized otherwise, they shouldn't have been allowed to raise doubt about their business model.

"can't flip a switch" = It will take some time but it can be done. Hey, even one week is more time then "flipping a switch". I'm sure MS had many working long hours to remedy that asap

"the console was built around it" = Technically that isn't a lie. MS still believes the console is at it's best with Kinect attached, espcially when voice commanding your TV/media.

"Xbox One is Kinect. They aren't separate systems" = They wanted solidarity in their SKU lineup and not seperate userbases like 360 kinect did.

The quotes are more about their vision then physical hardware limitations. You just have to brush up on PR speak to get the real message.



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles.