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Forums - Nintendo - AMD Hinting that they will get the win for Nintendo's next handheld?

Soundwave said:

Mind you we are talking about a product launch that is about 2 years away still probably. We are probably talking about iPhone 7s or iPhone 8 by this time.

Even if the product is 2 years away Intel won't be transitioning to the 10nm process node anytime soon seeing as how I'm expecting them to commercialize it in 2017 which means Nintendo will have to still work with the 14nm process node and that's IF Intel decides to work with them.



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padib said:
fatslob-:O said:

Even if the product is 2 years away Intel won't be transitioning to the 10nm process node anytime soon seeing as how I'm expecting them to commercialize it in 2017 which means Nintendo will have to still work with the 14nm process node and that's IF Intel decides to work with them.

@underlined . Captain Tom just told you AMD nukes Intel by a factor of 5 in the mobile space, and Soundwave suggested AMD.

Just let them spout what they want. LOL 

I don't think they actually know a whole lot about the current situation ...



fatslob-:O said:
Soundwave said:

If they can get 200-250 GFLOPS of performance in a 3-5 watt package, IMO that's a go for a mini-tablet sized product that can approximate/port the 10-15 "important" Wii U titles that anyone would really care about at 540p or 480p resolution, no?

The XBox 360 is 250 GFLOPS total and that runs most/many games at 720p, so running most/all games at 480-540p (at this level of visual fidelity.

I don't see the handheld really being a 'portable Wii U' as no one really wants that. If it was powerful enough to handle ports, I think the appeal for Nintendo there is that they could port games like DKC: Tropical Freeze that didn't sell perhaps as much as they would have liked on Wii U and get a second chance at selling those games again (hopefully to a larger userbase this time around).

@Bold That's actually impossible for a GPU currently even with the soon to be latest Intel's 14nm process node ... 

Performance is MORE than just about GFLOPs. Fermi GPUs are known for having less theoretical performance to Evergreen or Cayman GPUs but despite these facts a top end Fermi GPU will outperform the AMD counterparts. There are more things that you should consider about theoretical performance rather than raw shading performance such as primitive rates, fill rates, and bandwidth. 

Not sure if this is accurate but tegra k1 uses less than 11 watts according to this

http://wccftech.com/stats-nvidia-tegra-k1-superchip-wattage-finally-revealed/

and k1 is 300+ gigaflops and it looks to be on 28 nm.



phaedruss said:

Not sure if this is accurate but tegra k1 uses less than 11 watts according to this

http://wccftech.com/stats-nvidia-tegra-k1-superchip-wattage-finally-revealed/

and k1 is 300+ gigaflops and it looks to be on 28 nm.

I would lay off the Nvidia kool aid if I were you ... So many undelivered promises on the mobile front that it's actually kind of sad for them. 

It's probably JUST less than 11 watts but that doesn't mean it's not close to it. To put some more salt on the wound do note that Nvidia SoCs are very likely to throttle a lot of times meaning they won't perform consistently as advertised. 

Even if the Tegra K1 was manufactured on Intel's 14nm process node don't expect more than a 100% improvement in the performance per watt department. BTW a 3 watt TDP is excessive in the ultramobile form factor. 



fatslob-:O said:
phaedruss said:

Not sure if this is accurate but tegra k1 uses less than 11 watts according to this

http://wccftech.com/stats-nvidia-tegra-k1-superchip-wattage-finally-revealed/

and k1 is 300+ gigaflops and it looks to be on 28 nm.

I would lay off the Nvidia kool aid if I were you ... So many undelivered promises on the mobile front that it's actually kind of sad for them. 

It's probably JUST less than 11 watts but that doesn't mean it's not close to it. To put some more salt on the wound do note that Nvidia SoCs are very likely to throttle a lot of times meaning they won't perform consistently as advertised. 

Even if the Tegra K1 was manufactured on Intel's 14nm process node don't expect more than a 100% improvement in the performance per watt department. BTW a 3 watt TDP is excessive in the ultramobile form factor. 


Well you said we wouldn't be getting close to 200+ gigaflops with power usage at 3-5 watts until, what was it, 10nm? I think that's wrong.



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phaedruss said:

Well you said we wouldn't be getting close to 200+ gigaflops with power usage at 3-5 watts until, what was it, 10nm? I think that's wrong.

If anything I'm actually right ... At these current rates were likely to see 50 Gflops/watt at Intel's 14nm process node so by giving the said hypothetical chip a 3 watt TDP it would likely end up at around 150 Gflops which is still quite a ways off so you would end up needing Intel's 10nm process node just to match last gen consoles. 5 watt chips are meant for tablets which isn't desirable for Nintendo handhelds. 



fatslob-:O said:
phaedruss said:

Well you said we wouldn't be getting close to 200+ gigaflops with power usage at 3-5 watts until, what was it, 10nm? I think that's wrong.

If anything I'm actually right ... At these current rates were likely to see 50 Gflops/watt at Intel's 14nm process node so by giving the said hypothetical chip a 3 watt TDP it would likely end up at around 150 Gflops which is still quite a ways off so you would end up needing Intel's 10nm process node just to match last gen consoles. 5 watt chips are meant for tablets which isn't desirable for Nintendo handhelds. 


We don't know what the form factor for the next Nintendo handheld is, the 3DS isn't the monster seller they envisoned so don't assume they are married to the clamshell design. Even kids seem to prefer the bigger/single screen design of the iPad/iPad mini as they are playing more and more on those devices than Nintendo's. 

150 GFLOPS would be enough to approximate many/most 360/PS3/Wii U tier games at a significantly reduced resolution I think for play on the go. 

Many Vita games do not run at the full resolution of the screen, Uncharted runs at 720 x 408 for example instead of the full 960x544, but it's very hard to tell that it's a "low resolution" game on a small screen with a good PPI. I suspect a Nintendo handheld will scale similarily to this, higher end games will run at a much lower resolution. 



fatslob-:O said:
phaedruss said:

Well you said we wouldn't be getting close to 200+ gigaflops with power usage at 3-5 watts until, what was it, 10nm? I think that's wrong.

If anything I'm actually right ... At these current rates were likely to see 50 Gflops/watt at Intel's 14nm process node so by giving the said hypothetical chip a 3 watt TDP it would likely end up at around 150 Gflops which is still quite a ways off so you would end up needing Intel's 10nm process node just to match last gen consoles. 5 watt chips are meant for tablets which isn't desirable for Nintendo handhelds. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tegra#Tegra_K1

So according to wccftech, if it's accurate, the Tegra k1 consumes 11 watts, less than, let's just say 11. According to that wikipedia entry, the Tegra k1 is rated at 364 Gigaflops. That's 33 gigaflops/watt on 28 nanometer process. I can't find the slideshow right now (argh!) but according to AMD power consumption going from 40 nm to 28 nm could be reduced to as much as 30 % of 40 nm. That might be an extreme case, but even reducing the clock to about half as many gigaflops could get you around 5 watts. Factor in new more power efficient architecture with another die shrink to 20 nm, it seems you could easily get at least 50 gigaflops per watt at 20 nm at the very least. That's 4 w for 200 gigaflops.

As far as the tablet thing, I just showed earlier that the 3DS XL is about the same size as an ipad mini.



Soundwave said:

We don't know what the form factor for the next Nintendo handheld is, the 3DS isn't the monster seller they envisoned so don't assume they are married to the clamshell design. Even kids seem to prefer the bigger/single screen design of the iPad/iPad mini as they are playing more and more on those devices than Nintendo's. 

150 GFLOPS would be enough to approximate many/most 360/PS3/Wii U tier games at a significantly reduced resolution I think for play on the go. 

Many Vita games do not run at the full resolution of the screen, Uncharted runs at 720 x 408 for example instead of the full 960x544, but it's very hard to tell that it's a "low resolution" game on a small screen with a good PPI. I suspect a Nintendo handheld will scale similarily to this, higher end games will run at a much lower resolution. 

FYI the 2DS was a failure so don't just assume that a bigger form factor is the way to go. I think clamshell is one of the best things to have ever happened. 

I don't know if I should tell you this but the Vita was also extremely weak clocking in at less than 70 gflops so that's the reason why many vita games don't run the full resolution as pixel shading is very expensive so it's understandable why it happened.

I think the best resolution that Nintendo should go with is 480x270 as it will save a lot of power. 



phaedruss said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tegra#Tegra_K1

So according to wccftech, if it's accurate, the Tegra k1 consumes 11 watts, less than, let's just say 11. According to that wikipedia entry, the Tegra k1 is rated at 364 Gigaflops. That's 33 gigaflops/watt on 28 nanometer process. I can't find the slideshow right now (argh!) but according to AMD power consumption going from 40 nm to 28 nm could be reduced to as much as 30 % of 40 nm. That might be an extreme case, but even reducing the clock to about half as many gigaflops could get you around 5 watts. Factor in new more power efficient architecture with another die shrink to 20 nm, it seems you could easily get at least 50 gigaflops per watt at 20 nm at the very least. That's 4 w for 200 gigaflops.

As far as the tablet thing, I just showed earlier that the 3DS XL is about the same size as an ipad mini.

Don't just believe that the Tegra K1 can consistently pull off 33 Gflops/watt consistently as it often caps out at around 25 Gflops/watt cause of the fact that it throttles a lot.

BTW don't expect much gains from going to a smaller process node as leakage issues become more apparrent so reducing power consumption at smaller process nodes will get harder and harder. Architectures also don't play a big role to performance gains in comparison to chip scaling so that's pretty much a moot point you've got on your hands.

Just note that the IPad mini is using the same processors as the iPhones but instead of being clocked at 800 Mhz it's clocked at 1 Ghz so that's actually a small increase in power consumption compared to the iPhones. 5 watts are meant for noticebly bigger tablets.