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Forums - Politics - Is raising minimum wage nationwide a horrible idea?

irstupid said:
NobleTeam360 said:

Jobs are limited at big corporations, so people would have no choice but to take jobs at smaller places. 

And what makes a company a big corporation?  Profit, number of employees, ect.  Just as you have seen with obamacare, people will cut things to be below the bar.  There are rules that if a corporation employes like 50 employees full time they have to meet certain insurance regulations.  No what companies do that are near that threshold.  They fire people or move them to part time.  

I would imagine both profit and employees would determine if a coroporation is considered big or not, among other factors. I'm also against obamacare, the fact that the government is allowed to force businesses into getting health insurance for it's employees is illegal imo. But I digress....



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Mr Khan said:
BMaker11 said:
Baalzamon said:
While the general argument for a minimum wage increase is inherently flawed, there is an justifiable argument completely separate from it that is not flawed.

The general argument you hear is that the minimum wage should be a sufficient "livable wage," or so it is called, and is often pegged around $15/hr. The problem with an immediate wage increase of this much is, it will lead to some pretty significant inflation (especially at smaller businesses and thus the $15/hr no longer being "livable"), some industries going out of business completely (I'm especially looking at the bar industry, as people simply wouldn't be willing to pay 50% more for their burger, fries, and beer at their favorite local joint on a lazy afternoon), as well as the current moderate wage workplaces having some pretty upset workers. If somebody at McDonalds is able to make $15/hr, than why am I only making $26/hr with a 150 credit degree and 3 letters after my name (CPA).

Now, the legitimate reason why the minimum wage should be raised, and how it should be? It should always be attached to inflation, plain and simple. Why is a minimum wage worker today making $7.25/hr, when a minimum wage worker 10 years ago made $7.25/hr. I realize they don't have a college degree, but I also realize that they are making effectively 30% less money than 10 years ago for doing the exact same thing, which is by no means fair.

No one seems to take that into account (tying minimum wage to inflation). I am, personally, not just utterly opposed to raising the minimum wage. But people are asking for $15/hr. That's insane. I make more than that, but not a whole lot. And I'll tell you what: I can afford my rent, my stupidly expensive car payment for what the car is (mother had bad credit, but I had no credit leaving college and I needed a car. She just got one from one of those "bad credit, we'll take you!" places and the payments were transferred to me), my student loans, and a credit card bill. And you know what, I still travel to places like Vegas and Atlanta, buy Playstations, got into cycling (not a cheap hobby), and more. That's what $15/hr will get you. Point being, $15/hr is not a "living" wage. It is very much a "luxury" wage. My essentials...essentials that not everyone even have (credit card bill, student loans, car payment...but I still have to pay them, unlike getting a PS4) are covered as well as a roof over my head and food on the table. And on top of that I can do all that extra stuff. This is what people who want a higher wage want. Not a "living wage", they want the extra stuff. They're accustomed to living outside their means, and now that there's a movement behind it, people think they are entitled to that lifestyle. You can live on a lot less than $15/hr, and I'm living proof of it.

Now, if you made the mistake of having kids with a scumbag, and he's not around to take care of it: your fault. If you have a job in such a niche field that it wouldn't translate to anything else if you got laid off: your fault. If you don't work and someone else is the breadwinner and they die, and in the time you were together, you do absolutely nothing that would have the slightest relevance on a resume: your fault.

But don't turn around and say you need $15/hr to "live". I "live" on a lot less. No, not ramen and hot pockets either. And the additional money I make goes to extra stuff you have no business partaking in if you're only qualified enough to work at McDonald's.

I agree with you to a point. I crunched the numbers, and i could almost support myself on my $8/hr job if i worked it full time (can't, though, grad school and all).

My question is: are you single and/or childless?

Poverty and the wage debate usually isn't about unmarried 20 somethings.

I am single and childless. And I also know that something like 50% of people working minimum wage are single mothers, and not grimy teenagers with a summer job. But I addressed that in a prior post. People are using that as an argument to pull on people's heartstrings because we should feel bad for the situation they're in. But, like I said before, a job that takes no training and can be done by a high schooler shouldn't be paid the same as a job requiring high skills. I don't care who's working that job: single mothers, divorcees, the elderly, college students....it doesn't matter. If you're completely expendable because your job doesn't require much to complete the task and getting a replacement is as easy as picking some guy up off the street, it shouldn't be paid the same as a job that requires a college degree, technical skills, a few years experience in the field, etc. Unless we also increases the wages of higher skilled workers, which would then put minimum wage workers in the same predicament they were before, once the markets adjust. 

It's not my fault a woman went and had a bunch of kids without going to school. That's on her. That's not on the employer to raise wages to accomodate her irresponsibility. It's on her to better herself to manage the lifestyle she got herself into. And if she 's a single mother because she ended up a widow (if divorced, she gets child support, unless her boyfriend or husband isn't the father...again, her fault for fooling around with scumbags), it's still her fault for not doing anything to boost her skills while she was a housewife. For example, you know you can go to code academy and learn the basics of SQL in under an hour, right? Slap that on a resume and start searching for jobs and you'll get $14/hr minimum (at least around where I live) for an entry level SQL Specialist job.

I read that the average household income in the US is like $51 or $52K, and that's 2-income with 3 children and living in a house. 3 children and a house! And that's living comfortably. You mean to tell me 1 person needs over 60% of that to live?! Because, remember, people like to focus on the least common denominator, so while that may seem like candy and rainbows to a single mother, the shitty 17 year old that always gets your order wrong is making that much as well. It's 100% a person's responsibility to be able to accomodate children and a house if they choose to go that route. Not the employer. You don't want to make $7.25? Get a better job. It's not the employers fault you put yourself in a situation where you need more money but don't have more skills. Also remember that minimum wage work isn't meant to be a career. If you're trying to raise a family by working at McDonald's, you're not doing it right. Minimum wage is meant to support your needs, not 3 more kids



-CraZed- said:
Minimum wage itself is a bad idea. Its a huge waste of time and energy and was borne out of white labor unions that wanted to protect their own jobs from minorities who would work for lower wages than whites.

Why the hell do people support minimum wage laws, gun control laws, public schools, or just about any other idea that comes out of the progressive agenda? Most of them can be traced right back to injustices perpetrated on minorities on this country.

•The 1931 Davis-Bacon Act, requiring "prevailing" wages on federally assisted construction projects, was supported by the idea that it would keep contractors from using "cheap colored labor" to underbid contractors using white labor.

•Apartheid South Africa enacted a minimum wage to price low-skilled black workers out of selected trades.

•In the 1950s, New England textile manufacturers supported Sen. John F. Kennedy's efforts to increase the federal minimum wage to prevent competing mills from starting up in the low-wage South.

Minimum wage laws do nothing but cause prices to rise and further ensure the less skilled are harder to hire causing all sorts of other problems in the process.

What, then, is moral? To determine that low-wage workers are able to survive? The minimum wage is insufficient in that regard, unless we take to the idea that prices would adjust *downward* in the absence of a wage floor, but this is unrealistic.

So long as inflation is the norm, a minimum wage is needed, either that or wage subsidies to those who would otherwise suffer and fail. How do we ensure quality of life for marginal workers?



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

BMaker11 said:

I am single and childless. And I also know that something like 50% of people working minimum wage are single mothers, and not grimy teenagers with a summer job. But I addressed that in a prior post. People are using that as an argument to pull on people's heartstrings because we should feel bad for the situation they're in. But, like I said before, a job that takes no training and can be done by a high schooler shouldn't be paid the same as a job requiring high skills. I don't care who's working that job: single mothers, divorcees, the elderly, college students....it doesn't matter. If you're completely expendable because your job doesn't require much to complete the task and getting a replacement is as easy as picking some guy up off the street, it shouldn't be paid the same as a job that requires a college degree, technical skills, a few years experience in the field, etc. Unless we also increases the wages of higher skilled workers, which would then put minimum wage workers in the same predicament they were before, once the markets adjust. 

It's not my fault a woman went and had a bunch of kids without going to school. That's on her. That's not on the employer to raise wages to accomodate her irresponsibility. It's on her to better herself to manage the lifestyle she got herself into. And if she 's a single mother because she ended up a widow (if divorced, she gets child support, unless her boyfriend or husband isn't the father...again, her fault for fooling around with scumbags), it's still her fault for not doing anything to boost her skills while she was a housewife. For example, you know you can go to code academy and learn the basics of SQL in under an hour, right? Slap that on a resume and start searching for jobs and you'll get $14/hr minimum (at least around where I live) for an entry level SQL Specialist job.

I read that the average household income in the US is like $51 or $52K, and that's 2-income with 3 children and living in a house. 3 children and a house! And that's living comfortably. You mean to tell me 1 person needs over 60% of that to live?! Because, remember, people like to focus on the least common denominator, so while that may seem like candy and rainbows to a single mother, the shitty 17 year old that always gets your order wrong is making that much as well. It's 100% a person's responsibility to be able to accomodate children and a house if they choose to go that route. Not the employer. You don't want to make $7.25? Get a better job. It's not the employers fault you put yourself in a situation where you need more money but don't have more skills. Also remember that minimum wage work isn't meant to be a career. If you're trying to raise a family by working at McDonald's, you're not doing it right. Minimum wage is meant to support your needs, not 3 more kids

No, minimum wage is meant to alleviate poverty, which is defined as sole provider for a family of 4. That may change as dual income becomes increasingly the norm, but it is still designed that *all* of us can raise a family if we so choose. That path should not be limited to those of us fortunate enough to be on or ahead of the curve.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Mr Khan said:
-CraZed- said:
Minimum wage itself is a bad idea. Its a huge waste of time and energy and was borne out of white labor unions that wanted to protect their own jobs from minorities who would work for lower wages than whites.

Why the hell do people support minimum wage laws, gun control laws, public schools, or just about any other idea that comes out of the progressive agenda? Most of them can be traced right back to injustices perpetrated on minorities on this country.

•The 1931 Davis-Bacon Act, requiring "prevailing" wages on federally assisted construction projects, was supported by the idea that it would keep contractors from using "cheap colored labor" to underbid contractors using white labor.

•Apartheid South Africa enacted a minimum wage to price low-skilled black workers out of selected trades.

•In the 1950s, New England textile manufacturers supported Sen. John F. Kennedy's efforts to increase the federal minimum wage to prevent competing mills from starting up in the low-wage South.

Minimum wage laws do nothing but cause prices to rise and further ensure the less skilled are harder to hire causing all sorts of other problems in the process.

What, then, is moral? To determine that low-wage workers are able to survive? The minimum wage is insufficient in that regard, unless we take to the idea that prices would adjust *downward* in the absence of a wage floor, but this is unrealistic.

So long as inflation is the norm, a minimum wage is needed, either that or wage subsidies to those who would otherwise suffer and fail. How do we ensure quality of life for marginal workers?

Moral? A moral wage is one that is mutually agreed upon by two interested parties. Inflation is not always the norm and is dependant on a myriad of factors and it is when those who believe they know better than the 300+ million people who take part within our economy (I'm obviously limiting this to the US) start tinkering by enforcing artificial, and often arbitrary, hikes in wages people suffer for it and indeed inflation kicks in. It is called "means-of-control" and "built-in" inflation. Where as if we didn't enforce these types of policies costs of production can go down and so can then prices etc.

Look, I make about $32 an hour so one would say why then do you care? Well let's see, I care because now my purchasing power will be affected as the things that were made or sold or services rendered by people who make $7.25 now will inevitably go up (primary consequence). So now that my purchasing power has dropped I, being a rational human being will eventually look to increase my own wage so that I can gain that lost purchaing power back.  Once I have gained that wage increase (I'm a nurse and we have a tough union, we'll get it) then necessarily the cost of my services will go up as well (tertiary consequence).

Now since I am more valuable to the economy than a minimum wage earner (in terms of wage) it is obvious that my services will always cost more and in this case we would be talking about health care. Which, as we all know is already super expensive right? We'll thanks to a minimum wage hike the cost will go up further due to my wages going up and that short term gain of a higher minimum wage not only did absolutely nothing to help the minimum wage eraner better afford health care service but it also most likely resulted in he/she or someone else they worked with losing their job as employers cut out excessive labor to afford those pay hikes (another secondary consequence) and most likely causing them to lose any health care coverage they may have had through their employer.

And that scenario could even affect those who make MORE than minimum wage and work in companies that employ minimum wage workers.

This is a cycle that happens all across the economy as prices go up due to minimum wage hikes. Inflation may happen but it doesn't mean the tinkers at the central planning office need to inject more factors that cause it to happen.



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No. It's not. It's necessary, because whether they raise min. wage or NOT, inflation still happens. Prices of shit STILL goes up, whether there's any actual reason/cause for them to go up or not (hint: there usually isn't). Our financial system is totally fucked, and complete and utter bullshit, but we're so ingrained with it, that it's going to be hard to move on to something else (see: smarter, more sustainable).

So until THAT happens, yes, it is basically necessary to raise the min. wage every once in awhile. If you honestly don't think so, then you've probably never tried to support yourself (much less a family) on one or more min. wage jobs, even if you work your ass off and NEVER have any free time. Being the working poor is the drizzling shits, working your ass off with nothing to show for it. And those of us who are lucky enough NOT to be in that situation, should count ourselves thankful, and show compassion for those who do have to deal with such tough circumstances.



The goverment can rise it.but these company's will get smart and give part time workers like 10 hours a week.
There is no law on how many hours part timers can work.so they can get away with it



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DevilRising said:
No. It's not. It's necessary, because whether they raise min. wage or NOT, inflation still happens. Prices of shit STILL goes up, whether there's any actual reason/cause for them to go up or not (hint: there usually isn't). Our financial system is totally fucked, and complete and utter bullshit, but we're so ingrained with it, that it's going to be hard to move on to something else (see: smarter, more sustainable).

So until THAT happens, yes, it is basically necessary to raise the min. wage every once in awhile. If you honestly don't think so, then you've probably never tried to support yourself (much less a family) on one or more min. wage jobs, even if you work your ass off and NEVER have any free time. Being the working poor is the drizzling shits, working your ass off with nothing to show for it. And those of us who are lucky enough NOT to be in that situation, should count ourselves thankful, and show compassion for those who do have to deal with such tough circumstances.

Pretty much. 



DevilRising said:
No. It's not. It's necessary, because whether they raise min. wage or NOT, inflation still happens. Prices of shit STILL goes up, whether there's any actual reason/cause for them to go up or not (hint: there usually isn't). Our financial system is totally fucked, and complete and utter bullshit, but we're so ingrained with it, that it's going to be hard to move on to something else (see: smarter, more sustainable).

So until THAT happens, yes, it is basically necessary to raise the min. wage every once in awhile. If you honestly don't think so, then you've probably never tried to support yourself (much less a family) on one or more min. wage jobs, even if you work your ass off and NEVER have any free time. Being the working poor is the drizzling shits, working your ass off with nothing to show for it. And those of us who are lucky enough NOT to be in that situation, should count ourselves thankful, and show compassion for those who do have to deal with such tough circumstances.

I have news for you. I make more than four times the minimum wage and I work a lot to support my family. The difference is that I chose to not be a minimum wage worker WITH a family. If you are on minimum wage why are you having a family. And before you turn to the obligatory not everyone chooses this or some other cop out for why people are living beyond their means, let me point out that the average minimum wage earn stays on minimum age for less than a year and that fewer than 10% of Americans earn the minimum wage and that the two highest demographics who earn minimum wage are the very young and very old. Neither of which is your typical head of household raising kids.

And as I pointed out in an above post raising the minimum age will not make it easier for those who rely on it to support themselves as pricing increases will happen all that much faster and actually cause many to lose their jobs in the short term (before the economy as a whole settles into the new minimum wage and hiring can begin again).

The rest of your assertions on how we are all so ingrained with this effed up economy is so woefully ignorant it can hardly be summed up. But I'll try.

Most people have absolutely no concept of how our capitalist economy works. Which is why so many people are so bad at dealing with it.

Prices do go up. But they don't always and they don't have to either. Us gamers actually have a great example of this in our very own hobby. Being a gamer today is much cheaper than it was in the 80s and 90s.

Raising the minimum wage has had no impact on peverty and in fact while minimum wages have gone up median wages have decreased.

A couple of thought exercises.

#1: Why don't we just dictate every single person's wage to a set of standards. You are the one in charge of this standard. You can assign wages based their rank, class or even value to the economy, state or country by any metric you deem fit. Heck you could do it arbitrarily or even just assign everyone, worker and boss alike, the exact same wage.

What do you think that would do to the economy? Would that make everyone financially equal and happy? How long do you think that equality would last?

 

#2 (this is a favorite and always gets a reaction but not a good answer):  Why don't we just raise the minimum wage to $30/hr or even $100/hr. $1000/hr? Why not? What would this accomplish?