Conina said: Well, an OS-upgrade on PCs is a lot easier than installing the PS4-OS on a PS3, the XBO-OS on a 360 or the WiiU-OS on the old Wii. ;) The thing is: if the main purpose of your PC is gaming, you don't need to install the newest Windows version every few years. Are there even PC games released which demand anything newer than the 8 year old Vista? Most 2013 and 2014 PC games will even run on the 13 year old Windows XP... especially those who can still run on a laptop. So yeah, a complete OS upgrade can be problematic, especially on laptops... but that's not the normal case and the upgrade process got better each new Windows version. The more frequent "normal" updates (Windows security updates, graphic card drivers, Java, Adobe Flash, Steam) run automatically or can be installed with a few mouse clicks.

Ok, now look at everything you just mentioned in the part I bolded. How many of those clicks do you need on a game console? How many drivers or normal updates do you need? If i buy a PS4 today, put it under my bed for the next 4 years. When i plug it in, all I weill need to do is download whatever the latest update is. Just one update and thats it. On a PC, you would be installing over 100 updates. and not even talking about the compulsory ones. f you have ever installed a new OS for a PC you would know what I am talking about. And all this doesn't cover hardware specific updates that in most cases you may have to seek out and install yourself.

And lastly, because you don't "need" to do something often doesn't mean that its not something to mention. Its still a PC thing. And something that should be considered if you are going into PC gaming or remotely are considering building your own rig. Its a hassle, one easily overcome if you know your way around the internet... but one that is never shared with console gamers or streaming boxes.

bevochan said: Single player games - I usually go with PC.  Games looked the best on PC.  No subjectivity here. Multiplayer games (with exception to MMOs and MOBAs) - I usually go with consoles.  More subjective but...   In general, multiplayer communities are better on consoles.  Too many cheaters on PC multiplayers.  Servers are better and easier to find games on consoles.  I know there are good FPS communities on PC such as counter strike and older battlefields, but I don't like counter strike and I didn't buy PC version of BF4.  Titanfall PC community is supposedly already dead.  MOST IMPORTANTLY, most of my friends have consoles and not gaming PCs.

Dang, these are my thoughts 100%

Intrinsic said: Conina said: So yeah, a complete OS upgrade can be problematic, especially on laptops... but that's not the normal case and the upgrade process got better each new Windows version. The more frequent "normal" updates (Windows security updates, graphic card drivers, Java, Adobe Flash, Steam) run automatically or can be installed with a few mouse clicks. Ok, now look at everything you just mentioned in the part I bolded. How many of those clicks do you need on a game console? How many drivers or normal updates do you need? If i buy a PS4 today, put it under my bed for the next 4 years. When i plug it in, all I weill need to do is download whatever the latest update is. Just one update and thats it. On a PC, you would be installing over 100 updates. and not even talking about the compulsory ones. f you have ever installed a new OS for a PC you would know what I am talking about. And all this doesn't cover hardware specific updates that in most cases you may have to seek out and install yourself.

If you buy a PC today with a preinstalled Windows, put it under your bed for the next 4 years and then plug it in again, you don't need to install 100 updates. The windows patches will run automatically, no input of you required. Java, Adobe and your browser will open requesters to install the newest versions, just deselect the bloatware and click "OK"... only the newest versions get downloaded and installed, not the steps between old and newest. If you have Nvidia, Geforce Experience will also offer a One-Click-update. Steam will update itself and all its games automatically. That's it.

I used to upgrade my pc but haven't anymore in the last 5 years. I still play some games on pc but prefer consoles nowadays.

- PC reminds me of work, there's always that email right there and internet distractions.
- PC gaming behind a desk is uncomfortable, so I move it to the big screen. Yet those background installed windows updates always need to finish when shutting down, then it has to configure updates while starting back up after moving.
- Performance is far more variable while playing on PC. Some effects might bring your specific gpu down to a crawl. And there is always that nagging feeling that it could look and run better with an upgrade. I spend too much time in the settings, ini files, internet forums instead of playing the game.
- My internet is capped, I have to plan ahead if I want to download a big AAA game. Buying $60 digital games on PC feels like a rip off anyway, I rather have a physical disc.

I largely agree with the OP when it comes to consoles vs. PC. Streaming, while better on paper, is actually iffy because of local ISP monopolies.

PC definitely has performance, but it comes out as a hardware cost. To meaningfully better a current-gen console you have to upgrade your hardware every two or three years, so even if you are getting good discounts on Steam games, the actual cost reduction is minimal unless you're buying and playing all the games in the world.

I want to add, though, that I have spent hundreds of hours debugging errant PC games because they weren't optimized for my hardware. I have never had that problem on a console.

Conina said: If you buy a PC today with a preinstalled Windows, put it under your bed for the next 4 years and then plug it in again, you don't need to install 100 updates. The windows patches will run automatically, no input of you required. Java, Adobe and your browser will open requesters to install the newest versions, just deselect the bloatware and click "OK"... only the newest versions get downloaded and installed, not the steps between old and newest. If you have Nvidia, Geforce Experience will also offer a One-Click-update. Steam will update itself and all its games automatically. That's it.

Alright, this is about PC gaming not being as complicated as I made it sound right? Yet you are making a lot of exceptions here. Lets dial back a little.

Say you have $400 and a TV at home. Now you have three options. One is to just go out an buy a PS4. The second is to go out and find a PC for $400 (be it a laptop or a zotac or anything that have everything preinstalled and all you have to do is just connect it to your TV). The third is to streatch your budget out as much as possible to afford an experience that is at least on par with what you can get for consoles.

Option 2 is off the table cause no prebuilt PC isn't going to have the specs that can match a PS4. "mini" PCs in that price bracket dusually don't even had a dedicated GPU.  And consider that you will also need to throw in a controller since you primarily wanna use this for games. This leaves you with optione one and three.

So option 3, you are going to be building a system from scratch. This means, cpu, gpu or an apu. motherboard, HDD, PCU, keyboard, mouse, controller, a case, and windows OS. Now no matter how you wanna spin it, there are like 9 to 11 things theer that you need to build your PC. And you have to get super creative with your buying options and even go into the used market here or there to get the best deals. You are either willing to do all this and know how to, or you are looking for someone that already has and buying the system off them; and that system will not cost you $400. Now being that you are building this system from scratch, nothing in that list is simply a plug and play affair. You have to know something about a BIOS or EMFI, you have to install device drivers for everything that you are putting in your rig.

Everything you have read above, are things that you will not have to do with a console. And that is why PC gaming is more complicated. Its easy to say oh my PC does this or that or can do this. But pls, show me a PC gamer that has never had to update or find the right driver for some newly added hardware and I will tell you that PC gamer does not game primarily on a PC.

This isn't a diss on PC gaming. I was just point out that as far as ease of use goes, PCs are orders of magnitude more complicated than consoles. And believe me when I say that have to deal with any two or three of those things is enough to put majority of the gaming public off. Lets not even get into all 9 to 11 of them.

Egann said: I largely agree with the OP when it comes to consoles vs. PC. Streaming, while better on paper, is actually iffy because of local ISP monopolies. PC definitely has performance, but it comes out as a hardware cost. To meaningfully better a current-gen console you have to upgrade your hardware every two or three years, so even if you are getting good discounts on Steam games, the actual cost reduction is minimal unless you're buying and playing all the games in the world. I want to add, though, that I have spent hundreds of hours debugging errant PC games because they weren't optimized for my hardware. I have never had that problem on a console.

Yup, streaming is better on paper. Which is why i also pointed out in my OP under streaming as "in theory". The amount of hurdles to tackle with streaming are ridiculous. Funny thing though, is that only a few of those are things that the end user can do anything about, all we can do is have the best internet connection we can get and hope that our ISP doesn't bounce us off too many servers so our ping is minimal. There is just too much wrong with streaming.

What you say about PC gaming is what troubles me about PC gamers. I have a very very very powerful rig if i may say, though I didnt build it primarily to play games I built it to work. But for a gaming platform, its more powerful than what the average PC gamer has by miles. Yet I can comfortably admit that gaming on PC is just never straighforward.  If you are willing to put in the time and effort its worth it, but PC gamers that are used to this extra effort seem to think its the norm and acceptable. 

Intrinsic said: Alright, this is about PC gaming not being as complicated as I made it sound right? Yet you are making a lot of exceptions here. Lets dial back a little. Say you have $400 and a TV at home. Now you have three options. One is to just go out an buy a PS4. The second is to go out and find a PC for $400 (be it a laptop or a zotac or anything that have everything preinstalled and all you have to do is just connect it to your TV). The third is to streatch your budget out as much as possible to afford an experience that is at least on par with what you can get for consoles. Option 2 is off the table cause no prebuilt PC isn't going to have the specs that can match a PS4. "mini" PCs in that price bracket dusually don't even had a dedicated GPU.  And consider that you will also need to throw in a controller since you primarily wanna use this for games. This leaves you with optione one and three. So option 3, you are going to be building a system from scratch. This means, cpu, gpu or an apu. motherboard, HDD, PCU, keyboard, mouse, controller, a case, and windows OS. Now no matter how you wanna spin it, there are like 9 to 11 things theer that you need to build your PC. And you have to get super creative with your buying options and even go into the used market here or there to get the best deals. You are either willing to do all this and know how to, or you are looking for someone that already has and buying the system off them; and that system will not cost you $400. Now being that you are building this system from scratch, nothing in that list is simply a plug and play affair. You have to know something about a BIOS or EMFI, you have to install device drivers for everything that you are putting in your rig.

Why suddenly that $400 budget limit in a discussion if keeping an PC up-to-date has to be complicated nowadays? To automatically exclude your option 2?

Most PC gamers buy pre-installed complete PCs, and it has never been so easy to keep them updated than now. 5 or 10 years ago you had to invest much more time... auto-updates weren't a thing, you had to search for drivers and game patches yourself. I know, when you read in computer forums, you get the impression that every PC gamers builds his own rig... but these are a small but very vocal minority.

And talking about budget... with $400 and a TV you are still lacking the games for the new console. If you want to play (and keep) 1 new game for $60 each month, you are already at $1120 ($400 + 12 x $60)... PC-versions of the same multiplatform games are much cheaper so a $700 PC + 12 games à $40 is in the same area: $1180. That's only the first year, in the second year (again 12 games) the total investment is already in favour of the PC.

If you want to play 2 or 3 games a month, the higher investment of a solid gaming PC amortizes even faster.

Conina said: 1. Why suddenly that $400 budget limit in a discussion if keeping an PC up-to-date has to be complicated nowadays? To automatically exclude your option 2? 2. Most PC gamers buy pre-installed complete PCs, and it has never been so easy to keep them updated than now. 5 or 10 years ago you had to invest much more time... auto-updates weren't a thing, you had to search for drivers and game patches yourself. I know, when you read in computer forums, you get the impression that every PC gamers builds his own rig... but these are a small but very vocal minority. 3. And talking about budget... with $400 and a TV you are still lacking the games for the new console. If you want to play (and keep) 1 new game for $60 each month, you are already at $1120 ($400 + 12 x $60)... PC-versions of the same multiplatform games are much cheaper so a $700 PC + 12 games à $40 is in the same area: $1180. That's only the first year, in the second year (again 12 games) the total investment is already in favour of the PC. 4. If you want to play 2 or 3 games a month, the higher investment of a solid gaming PC amortizes even faster.

Ok now you are reaching and twisting stuff to suit your argument. I don't know how else to put it.

1. That $400 budget isn't sudden. Its the cost of a PS4 right now. And anyone buying a new platform to play games will have to consider that he can get a game playing machine for as little as $250- $400. This discussion is based on a neutral going into the market. Not a continuing PC gamer looking to update. Thats a totally different scenario. You are talking about updating a PC. I am talking about starting from scratch cause that is what any console gamer does. Start from scratch. The only people looking to upgrade are people that are already gaming on PCs to begin with.
2. Exactly, pre-installed complete PCs. So if that is the case then the $400 budget still stands. Cause that as I said originally is one of the biggest advantages of consoles. Price:performance. And no, you can not buy a prebuilt complete PC for the price of a PS4 that will match the PS4 in performance. And by performance I am not just talking about transistors or teraflops. I am talking about the fact that in the console spavce every game made for it will be optimized. So you will need more power in a machine than the PS4 base specs to run a game at PS4 settings. And you said, only a small minority actually go out and build rigs. 
3. This total investment talk is irrelevant. We aren't talking about the long term cost benefits of owning a console vs PC cause you can't predict a users gaming habits. What of the user buy used games. What if he and a friend shares games and then only buy one half of those 12 games. And no one goes into "BUYING A NEW PLATFORM" saying...hey I would spend $200 less over a year if i go with the PC. thats just forum talk. In the real world, what determine what the average joe does is how much disposable cash is at hand. And for that average joe.... a PS4 at $400 will sound a lot better than a PC at $700.
4. Again, you are derailing this argument. Everything you have said doesn't negate the disadvantages with PC gaming. All you are doing is arguing why those disadvantages are acceptable from a Pc gamer perspective. That is not what this thread is about. This thread isn't about which platform is better or worse. All I am doing is talking about the things that should be considered when looking at all platforms at the point of entry. Add to teh fact that the genral public average joe doesn't even buy up to 12 new games per year. They could buy at most 4-5 new games per year and those games are usually COD/madden/nba2k...etc. and get the rest of his games used or make the odd "this may be interesting" purchase.

Having said all that, I really don't know what point you are trying to make now? Are you saying that PCs are cheaper than $400 consoles? Are you saying that PCs are less complicated to use/set-up/run than consoles? Or are you saying that games on PC are cheaper so its better to game on PCs cause it saves you money which in turn balances out the initial cost of entry for the PC gamer? You are wrong on the first two and irrelevantly right on the thrid point.

Conina said: Intrinsic said: Alright, this is about PC gaming not being as complicated as I made it sound right? Yet you are making a lot of exceptions here. Lets dial back a little. Say you have $400 and a TV at home. Now you have three options. One is to just go out an buy a PS4. The second is to go out and find a PC for $400 (be it a laptop or a zotac or anything that have everything preinstalled and all you have to do is just connect it to your TV). The third is to streatch your budget out as much as possible to afford an experience that is at least on par with what you can get for consoles. Option 2 is off the table cause no prebuilt PC isn't going to have the specs that can match a PS4. "mini" PCs in that price bracket dusually don't even had a dedicated GPU.  And consider that you will also need to throw in a controller since you primarily wanna use this for games. This leaves you with optione one and three. So option 3, you are going to be building a system from scratch. This means, cpu, gpu or an apu. motherboard, HDD, PCU, keyboard, mouse, controller, a case, and windows OS. Now no matter how you wanna spin it, there are like 9 to 11 things theer that you need to build your PC. And you have to get super creative with your buying options and even go into the used market here or there to get the best deals. You are either willing to do all this and know how to, or you are looking for someone that already has and buying the system off them; and that system will not cost you $400. Now being that you are building this system from scratch, nothing in that list is simply a plug and play affair. You have to know something about a BIOS or EMFI, you have to install device drivers for everything that you are putting in your rig. Why suddenly that $400 budget limit in a discussion if keeping an PC up-to-date has to be complicated nowadays? To automatically exclude your option 2? Most PC gamers buy pre-installed complete PCs, and it has never been so easy to keep them updated than now. 5 or 10 years ago you had to invest much more time... auto-updates weren't a thing, you had to search for drivers and game patches yourself. I know, when you read in computer forums, you get the impression that every PC gamers builds his own rig... but these are a small but very vocal minority. And talking about budget... with $400 and a TV you are still lacking the games for the new console. If you want to play (and keep) 1 new game for $60 each month, you are already at $1120 ($400 + 12 x $60)... PC-versions of the same multiplatform games are much cheaper so a $700 PC + 12 games à $40 is in the same area: $1180. That's only the first year, in the second year (again 12 games) the total investment is already in favour of the PC. If you want to play 2 or 3 games a month, the higher investment of a solid gaming PC amortizes even faster.

And there are companies like iBuyPower and CyberPower that will build your PC for you for just a small markup. You just choose the parts and they'll assemble it, and if you do it during one of their sales you'll save even more.

People tend to convinently forget that and act like everyone absolutely has to hand-assemble their own PC to get decent power (which isn't even that hard in the first place).