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Forums - Sales Discussion - X1 will never catch or match PS4 sales, it is a misfired product.

ISPs are open and adamant about wanting to change the Internet into a post-net-neutrality world of prioritized content, and metered bandwidth (Read as CAPS CAPS CAPS everywhere). They also are glacially slow at rolling out true high speed access.

All of this while games are balooning in size. Once 7g ports die off, it won't be uncommon at all for multiple 40-80GB games to come out in the fall/winter seasons. And we are also seeing a stagnation in hard drive sizes for the 2.5" form factor. 2TB single-height 2.5" drives may be out in late 2015, but beyond that will take a looooong time to reach 4TB if ever. We're definitely in the range of diminishing returns due to physical limitations for mass produced storage products.

It all adds up to going digital-only being a pipe dream unless someone wants to chop their own legs off at the corporate level. Microsoft was nuts to believe their plan would fly. And others are nuts to think any discless system will work on a widespread massive level equal to console game sales in the US, at least for another 10-15 years+. Nobody is bringing the infrastructure to do so, and it's not like games will stay at 40GB typical sizes, by the end of the gen 80+ may be average, and a next-gen console may bring 250GB games to the forefront. Download that with your 250GB monthly cap :P Or your value internet plan that they give you, 10mbit with 5 GB included for $34.99, $4.99 for each additional GB downloaded. Not only will it take you a freaking year to download at that crap speed, but you'll go broke trying.



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theprof00 said:

I think the best I can hope for out of this discussion is, "while you havea  point with x, and believe more firmly that y was what was actually happening. I see your argument, but I don't think it's entirely accurate."

....so I'm not going to keep arguing. I'll just wait for the word to eventually come out itself, and then I'll get back to you. I know I'm right, I don't need to convince you.

So is the story of the internet for people who think they are right without any proof.

I truly hope the full story will come out, there was a lot of bold, odd and stupid movements by MS and I wonder how far they planned on taking the idea. Since MS moved on from Mackitric(or whatever the idiot was there for the launch who abandoned ship a few months in), I wonder if the story will be swept under the rug for a long, long, long time(Forever?). Where are all the disgruntled MS employees? Either way good chat, good sir!



Getting an XBOX One for me is like being in a bad relationship but staying together because we have kids. XBone we have 20000+ achievement points, 2+ years of XBL Gold and 20000+ MS points. I think its best we stay together if only for the MS points.

Nintendo Treehouse is what happens when a publisher is confident and proud of its games and doesn't need to show CGI lies for five minutes.

-Jim Sterling

Arkaign said:
OdinHades said:
It's not like the X1 won't sell at all. It just will sell relatively bad compared to PS4. That doesn't make it a flop though, as the PSP for example was also a huge success, despite being outsold 2:1 by DS. It's all a matter of perspective, you know..

You don't need to be the top dog to have a good business. Microsoft just needs to adapt to the market. Concentrate on the US, as nobody in europe or japan seems to want to have an X1. Don't throw too much money out of the window for meaningless 3rd party DLC deals or stuff like that, it won't make a difference. Focus on developing new games from 1st partys instead. That will have an impact in the long run and might secure a good position for Microsoft for the Next Generation.

Anything can happen, as every Gen starts at 0, which Gen 8 showed us yet again. So losing this isn't the end of the world for Microsoft. They just really need to stop making all these panic decisions and instead do something well planned for the long term.


That's a pretty decent summary. It's hazardous though, and it remains to be seen if Microsoft can switch gears enough to make their Xbox operation profitable with that level of marketshare (30-40M worldwide for the gen, with many of those sales going to be 2nd consoles where multiplats aren't even bought on the system).

The original XB1 plan was to exceed X360 marketshare, and not only that, to combine it with higher software sales (no used games, or heavily restricted used games, which in their mind = more people buying new games or older titles at a controlled price and $$ going straight through them instead of Gamestop/Ebay/etc). The other piece of the monetization puzzle was the media control and paywalled access to the various music/movies/tv sourcing.

So these three pegs :

(1)- Mass marketshare (which amortizes the R&D and initial marketing costs of the product over time to a much greater degree with huge sales vs. modest/poor sales)

(2)- Restricted/controlled game sales to eliminate used/traded games outside of their direct control.

(3)- Paywalls everywhere for all the multimedia functionality.

Have all fallen away. Whatever models they had that the Xbox supporters within the wider Microsoft corporate offices were dreaming of have been ruthlessly shattered by their own lethal mix of arrogance, ignorance, and misunderstanding of how they achieved their gen7 success. Their entire gen8 plans were stratospherically ambitious, and the true financial data on exactly how much it cost to bring the XB1 to market would probably melt your brain if publically disclosed. We know from the financials leaked and officially released that the totality of the Xbox project from inception to OG release through 360 netted Microsoft somewhere around 3.5 billion dollars in the red. The last few years of gen7 showed modest profits, but nothing near enough to make up the losses of the previous years, and nothing near enough to make the effort a worthwhile enterprise to pursue if that was all they could get.

So no, they didn't plan on JUST getting 360-levels of success, they were hoping for a billion console empire, a thousand-year fourth reich emblazoned with golden mountains of profits. 100M consoles to them would probably be seen as a failure on their own terms, and that's WITH the cards stacked the way they wanted with DRM, paywalls, etc. Post 180s, to achieve their same theoretical kingdom of cash, they might need 150-175M sold.

I know how Western corporations are run in the realm of the Fortune 500. They waste money hand over fist. Hell, Mattrick probably got a golden parachute of untold riches and a platinum gulfstream jet on the way out the door, just because that's how they roll. Combining their pencheant for using benjamins to light their cigars and wipe their arses with their batshit insane plans for gen8 manifesting in ludicrous wastes of money like the NFL deal, Kinect2, etc/infinity, it's exceedingly doubtful that XB1 has a chance in hell of seeing a cent of profit even if it lasts a decade.

------------------

Back to your point, IF Microsoft sees the situation for what it is, and the tea leaves WILL get up the chain, because as each quarterly report comes in and they aren't seeing the flood of income that was promised to them arrive, there will be blood, yes heads on pikes all over the place until a reckoning is had. And that reckoning will involve a total transformation of the Xbox philosophy not simply from a PR perspective, but the business plan from the inside out. I can even chart it right here, what would streamline the whole shebang :

(0)- Leave all markets outside of the US/UK. It's a waste of time even shipping anything over there, not to mention the advertising, hiring staff there, supporting the products after the fact, etc. Stick a fork in em, they're more trouble than they're worth at this point.

(1)- Kill Kinect entirely other than supporting the ones already sold. Take the ones currently in warehouses and slap them in boxes with Windows drivers and sell them for $99 a pop as high end webcams for home and business use.

(2)- Stop paying for any non-gaming advertising or licensing for anything to do with Xbox. It's a waste of money and isn't going to deliver anything worthwhile.

(3)- Sell off some bunk studios like Rare, complete with IPs, so as to recoup some of the cash wasted on them.

(4)- Port a bunch of Xbox IPs older titles to the PC through steam. Make them online-only a la Diablo3 if they're worried about piracy, and publish a 12 or 18 month exclusivity policy for new XB1 games so the Xbox fans don't cry too much about Xbox games being on PC. This would bring a ton of extra cash in alone.

(5)- Immediately cease ALL moneyhat activities and DLC/exclusive 3rd party nonsense. It never pays off, and compared to spending that same $$ on new in-house IPS and sequels it's the stupidest thing imaginable.

(6)- DO reinvest a lot of the $$ saved from the above into tons of new titles. Be smart about it, not everything has to be a $100M super AAA set-piece monstrosity. Get tighter teams, put smart people in charge, and shoot for a dozen 10-20M games AND a single massive AAA game per year. Bring back golden IPs like MechWarrior/etc. Put another team to work in porting OG Xbox games with a simple high-res job for 1080p/60fps and sell them for $5/pop through XBLG, as well as packaging them 5 at a time for $19.99 in stores.

(7)- Start some things that really set you apart from Sony instead of just being a 'me-too' console. Give away 90 days of XBLG with every console sold. Pack in a 2nd controller and a half dozen of those XB OG games I spoke of above AND a coupon for any XB1 title published by Microsoft of the user's choice.

(8)- Advertise in a more limited and focused manner, and co-sponsor local gaming tournaments that benefit top charities. Give consoles away to children's hospitals complete with libraries of family friendly titles. Offer free downloads for learning/spelling/math edutainment material for parents of young children.

Overall there's a ton of things they could do to cut the fat, lower operating costs by INSANE percentages, and revamp the Xbox brand into a positive, exciting, and vibrant presence in the marketplace.

Something tells me that's not going to happen though. The same predictable, stale, robotic Xbox brand will trudge forward, utterly oblivious at first to the quicksand they're walking into. Their solution to their problems will be to repeat the same actions like an insane person until it's too late. The last thing we'll hear is 'We're committed to the Xbox brand' right before we see the IPs announced being sold off, the petulant corporate titans having tired of the distraction and embarassment of a project whose entire history amounts to little more than a stain on their Bruno Magli shoes, and whose financial worth is akin to the change in their couch.

I forgot to add :

(9)- Release a streamlined slim XBO with 1TB HDD (costs like $1/more per unit in bulk than 500GB) console with the HDMI passthrough stripped out, and make the price $279 or so. It's much more profitable to get good numbers out the door and in gamers hands if you have a decent attach rate. Pack in a 5-pack of $15/off coupons for XB1 games with the systems to juice attachment rate even more.



Dark_Feanor said:
jnemesh said:

It's not the same game that was played out last generation.  The PS3 had better build quality than the competition, more developer support, a blu-ray drive that the competition lacked, and other contributing factors that led to it's being able to catch up and eventually overtake the 360.

This generation, the console that is lagging is SIGNIFICANTLY less powerful, has less developer support, less games available to play on the console (knock "indies" all you want, but they are there, and people do buy them and play them!), and most importantly, they lost the trust of a good deal of their customers, myself included. 

Last generation, I started out with a 360 (replaced twice due to RROD...how many "sales" were replacements last gen, I wonder?) and then bought a PS3 later.  This generation, I am skipping the Xbox completely.  There just isn't enough to compell me to spend another $600 on their system (console, extra controllers, battery packs, headphone adaptors, etc).  I bought the more powerful console that has more games (and more diverse games).  I am sure many others are making the same decision...as a matter of fact, I am sure of it!  If you look at the sales numbers, the VAST majority of Xbox One consoles were purchased in Nov and Dec last year...early adopters who bought purely on faith, to the tune of 3 million consoles.  Now, here we are SIX MONTHS later, and they havent even cracked 5 million!  I would be VERY surprised if they did 7 million by the end of the year.

Halo isn't going to save them, Sunset Overhype isn't going to save them, DX12 isn't going to fix things.  They need games, NOW...but "AAA" exclusives are hard to come by these days (especially after Titanflop)...and even if they signed someone up, it would be 2-3 YEARS before a game started today is ready for launch....by that time, it will be far too late.


Good for you.

But again, there is nothing MS can do other than release a totaly new console. Expecialy if you just refut any thing they are trying. Don´t know about your Live friends, but I know of none that would give up Halo for any indie or even Naught Dog´s master pieces.

And if you realy belive in what you wrote, so... I think Microsoft is glad in losing a client like you.


Actually, most of MY friends have made the switch with me and got PS4s.  And MS might not mourn one single player going away, but the effect is cumulative.  I went and got my PS4, then my friends started getting them too...eventually, they WILL start to "miss" gamers like myself.  Additionally, your tone here, saying MS is "glad to lose a customer like me" seems to indicate some hostility and defensiveness.  I would evaluate whether your feelings toward your console of choice are really justified, or if you have some irrational attachment to a brand for no reason.

What I was trying to convey to you, is that as a GAMER, I choose how to spend my money based on the quality of the offering.  I wasn't a "Sony fan" last gen, I preferred to own both consoles.  I would have gone the same route this time, but Microsoft isn't giving me enough reasons to own their console.  They focused, for good or ill, on "multimedia" features over gaming, and I already have PLENTY of devices that stream Netflix, Hulu and HBO.  I don't need any more of that...what I wanted was a "next gen" GAME CONSOLE, and theirs is not only underpowered, but it doesn't have the content I am looking for either...and with the current tally at something like 43 games available to play on Xbox One and 81 on PS4, I don't see that changing any time soon...ESPECIALLY since I thought Halo 4 was horrid.  Even if Halo 5 WASN'T a year and a half away, it wouldnt be enough to sway me.

And yes, I DO think that MS killing off the One early would be their best option at this point.  They won't do that, of course, but their only other option is to try and convince customers for the next several YEARS that their underpowered box is worth the investment...and that's not happening (look at sales figures for confirmation of this assertion).  MS is in a loosing position right now, and eventually, shareholders are going to pull the plug on it.  The OG Xbox was supposed to lose money, but get Microsoft's foot in the door...the Xbox 360 was supposed to solidify their business, and the X1 was supposed to be their profit maker...that's just not going to be the way it works.  We will see how it plays out, but I don't see Microsoft being any more successful with the Xbox brand than they were with ANY of their other consumer electroncs.  



CDiablo said:
theprof00 said:
 

I think the best I can hope for out of this discussion is, "while you havea  point with x, and believe more firmly that y was what was actually happening. I see your argument, but I don't think it's entirely accurate."

....so I'm not going to keep arguing. I'll just wait for the word to eventually come out itself, and then I'll get back to you. I know I'm right, I don't need to convince you.

So is the story of the internet for people who think they are right without any proof.

I truly hope the full story will come out, there was a lot of bold, odd and stupid movements by MS and I wonder how far they planned on taking the idea. Since MS moved on from Mackitric(or whatever the idiot was there for the launch who abandoned ship a few months in), I wonder if the story will be swept under the rug for a long, long, long time(Forever?). Where are all the disgruntled MS employees? Either way good chat, good sir!

I have proof, I just don't have time to post all the links. I can promise you that nothing I've said is false. If you'd like to know what Gamestop thought of xb1, just ask benvtrigger. He's made comments about the pre-180 xbox1.

I apologize if I've been curt or arrogant at all, it's just that I've been doing this for years and I know that even if I spend an hour getting all the links together, it won't really matter. Sources will be questioned, intent will be muddled, semantics will be argued, and it will just be a huge waste of both our time. I feel that this will definitely come to light one day as the xbox team shoulders the blame onto mattrick. They'll explain everything he tried to do, and how splintered and fractured it made their strategy....and then they'll spin it into how their new strategy is proven and is backed by everyone and how much consumers embrace it.

The other half of the strategy that they don't explain will reappear when they try and roll out the digital control like they keep talking about returning to (according to yusef medhi). That part they won't downplay, because they still want that control.

I imagine it will be something like "the original vision is wrong in x,y, and z different ways. Since then, we've taken measures to fix the issues. We no longer support x, have kept half of y, and have reimagined z."

The new system will allow trading over ebay and whatever, but you'll have to buy a code to "activate it"..an online pass or whatever. They'll abandon the azure in gamestop thing, but they will only charge gamestop like 5$ for an online pass instead of 15$. Developers will get a cut, but it will require contracts to get games and dlc early or exclusively. Then they'll roll out an all new family share. Allowing friend to play your games but with some kind of timer.

It's not that the features were bad, it's just that they were too single-minded. Had they considered their partners and consumers, they could've done really well.



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jnemesh said:


Actually, most of MY friends have made the switch with me and got PS4s.  And MS might not mourn one single player going away, but the effect is cumulative.  I went and got my PS4, then my friends started getting them too...eventually, they WILL start to "miss" gamers like myself.  Additionally, your tone here, saying MS is "glad to lose a customer like me" seems to indicate some hostility and defensiveness.  I would evaluate whether your feelings toward your console of choice are really justified, or if you have some irrational attachment to a brand for no reason.

What I was trying to convey to you, is that as a GAMER, I choose how to spend my money based on the quality of the offering.  I wasn't a "Sony fan" last gen, I preferred to own both consoles.  I would have gone the same route this time, but Microsoft isn't giving me enough reasons to own their console.  They focused, for good or ill, on "multimedia" features over gaming, and I already have PLENTY of devices that stream Netflix, Hulu and HBO.  I don't need any more of that...what I wanted was a "next gen" GAME CONSOLE, and theirs is not only underpowered, but it doesn't have the content I am looking for either...and with the current tally at something like 43 games available to play on Xbox One and 81 on PS4, I don't see that changing any time soon...ESPECIALLY since I thought Halo 4 was horrid.  Even if Halo 5 WASN'T a year and a half away, it wouldnt be enough to sway me.

And yes, I DO think that MS killing off the One early would be their best option at this point.  They won't do that, of course, but their only other option is to try and convince customers for the next several YEARS that their underpowered box is worth the investment...and that's not happening (look at sales figures for confirmation of this assertion).  MS is in a loosing position right now, and eventually, shareholders are going to pull the plug on it.  The OG Xbox was supposed to lose money, but get Microsoft's foot in the door...the Xbox 360 was supposed to solidify their business, and the X1 was supposed to be their profit maker...that's just not going to be the way it works.  We will see how it plays out, but I don't see Microsoft being any more successful with the Xbox brand than they were with ANY of their other consumer electroncs.  

How many of those 81 games have you played on the overpowered PS4?

Even if you think the world revolves around your opinion you are quite confusing what do you expect for your consoles of choice:

1- Power to play indie games that a mid-range tablet or a low range notebook can run easiely.

2- Again indie games that are not exclusives to PS4, that will soon debute on XOne. 

3- You make use of Netflix and other but don´t want a divice where the expecience and useability are great.

4- Talk about your frinds moving to PS4 and will they play Killzone over Halo?

5- Say Halo 4 was terrible but will pass the chance to play everyother entrie (minus Reach). 

6- You ignore that the 360 made more money than the PS3. 

Dude, choose your argument wisely. 



Dark_Feanor said:
jnemesh said:


Actually, most of MY friends have made the switch with me and got PS4s.  And MS might not mourn one single player going away, but the effect is cumulative.  I went and got my PS4, then my friends started getting them too...eventually, they WILL start to "miss" gamers like myself.  Additionally, your tone here, saying MS is "glad to lose a customer like me" seems to indicate some hostility and defensiveness.  I would evaluate whether your feelings toward your console of choice are really justified, or if you have some irrational attachment to a brand for no reason.

What I was trying to convey to you, is that as a GAMER, I choose how to spend my money based on the quality of the offering.  I wasn't a "Sony fan" last gen, I preferred to own both consoles.  I would have gone the same route this time, but Microsoft isn't giving me enough reasons to own their console.  They focused, for good or ill, on "multimedia" features over gaming, and I already have PLENTY of devices that stream Netflix, Hulu and HBO.  I don't need any more of that...what I wanted was a "next gen" GAME CONSOLE, and theirs is not only underpowered, but it doesn't have the content I am looking for either...and with the current tally at something like 43 games available to play on Xbox One and 81 on PS4, I don't see that changing any time soon...ESPECIALLY since I thought Halo 4 was horrid.  Even if Halo 5 WASN'T a year and a half away, it wouldnt be enough to sway me.

And yes, I DO think that MS killing off the One early would be their best option at this point.  They won't do that, of course, but their only other option is to try and convince customers for the next several YEARS that their underpowered box is worth the investment...and that's not happening (look at sales figures for confirmation of this assertion).  MS is in a loosing position right now, and eventually, shareholders are going to pull the plug on it.  The OG Xbox was supposed to lose money, but get Microsoft's foot in the door...the Xbox 360 was supposed to solidify their business, and the X1 was supposed to be their profit maker...that's just not going to be the way it works.  We will see how it plays out, but I don't see Microsoft being any more successful with the Xbox brand than they were with ANY of their other consumer electroncs.  

How many of those 81 games have you played on the overpowered PS4?

Even if you think the world revolves around your opinion you are quite confusing what do you expect for your consoles of choice:

1- Power to play indie games that a mid-range tablet or a low range notebook can run easiely.

2- Again indie games that are not exclusives to PS4, that will soon debute on XOne. 

3- You make use of Netflix and other but don´t want a divice where the expecience and useability are great.

4- Talk about your frinds moving to PS4 and will they play Killzone over Halo?

5- Say Halo 4 was terrible but will pass the chance to play everyother entrie (minus Reach). 

6- You ignore that the 360 made more money than the PS3. 

Dude, choose your argument wisely. 


Am I ever going to play everything available on the console?  Of course not, but having a larger library of games means that there will be more games that interest me personally.  Same goes for everyone else.

1 - Yes, many of the games are "indie" and can be run on a tablet...if they were available on one.  Show me a tablet version of "Transistor", will you?  Or a phone version of "Dead Nation"?  Nope.  PS4 offers a WIDE VARIETY of games and game types, for different types of games.

2- yes, many will come to the XB1, many will NOT...EVER.

3- know what works great for me?  Chromecast.  I select what I want to watch, click a button on my phone or tablet and it's playing what I want to watch.  I didn't see ANY functionality in the X1 that would improve on that experience.  Oh, I also paid $35 for my Chromecast....not $400

4 -Killzone?  No.  COD, yup.  Battlefield, no.  Destiny?  Yes.  I don't think I am missing much by skipping Halo, neither do my friends.

5- I already own Halo 1-4 on my 360, including the "anniversary edition" of Halo 1.  Why do I need to rebuy games I already own?  Better graphics?  Pass.

6 - Give me a link to your assertion that Xbox 360 made more money than PS3.  I am not buying that one, as the Xbox division has NEVER turned a profit, but Playstation has been profitable for the past several years.



toastboy44562 said:
BeElite said:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAhahahhahahahahahahahahahaha you derve an award.

http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/Xbox-One-Stereo-Headset-Adapter/productID.298057900

24.99

http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/Xbox-One-Play-and-Charge-Kit/productID.282109700

$24.99 durrrrrrrrr

http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Xbox-One-Loses-Kinect-2-0-Exclusivity-Coming-Windows-199-64508.html

Kinect 2.0 for pc $199

Less than 20 dollars

http://www.gamestop.com/xbox-one/accessories/xbox-one-power-kit/112599

 

and the kinect 2.0 for xbox one price has not been announced. stop lying!!!

 

Quote Tree Shortened - Conegamer

Stop arguing when you have been shown to be wrong. you might have found a 20 dollar knock off, but the original price for the product that microsoft offers that is the standart is 25. and the headset adapter is included in the ps4 FOR FREE witch is the point of the original coment. so leaving out the kinect, the ps4 at 400 is worth more than the 400 sku + 25 headseat + 25 battery pack cuz the hardware is more powerfull.



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

Mystro-Sama said:
I think it will do better than the 360 :P

Doubtful.



Toastboy: you just accused a guy of lying and then got served posts proving he wasn't. Might wanna post a reply countering thr proof he has provided.

Otherwise, you should feel bad.