By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - What does Putin want with Ukraine

 

What is his end state

Annex Ukraine As a whole 337 40.60%
 
Annex Crimea 286 34.46%
 
Defend Russian People Fro... 184 22.17%
 
Total:807
mai said:

On unrelated note...

Badassbab said:

Putin talks about the rights of ethnic Russian speaking people in other lands, what about the rights of Tartars and Chechens who would rather not be a part of Russia? Hypocrisy at it's worst.

When was last time when "Tatars and Chechens who would rather not be a part of Russia"? I could understand Chechnya some 15 years ago, you probably heard about it first time from the news :D But now it is scoring sky high as best Putin supporters (but of course it is all a fraud). But why Tatarstan all of a sudden for god's sake? You're talking with ethnic Tatar right now by the way, so careful with your BS.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/18/us-ukraine-crisis-crimea-tatars-idUSBREA4H06S20140518  <<<< Crimean Tartars don't want to be a part of Russia, they would rather have stayed part of Ukraine.

Chechnya is goverened by a brutal dictator and proped up (and bribed) by Russia not the population. Chechens would rather be independant, you only have to read a history book to see why, they too like the people of Ukraine have suffered terribly under Russian imperialism. If you can't even admit to that then really there's nothing more I can say to you on this subject.



Around the Network
Sharu said:
Badassbab said:

USA, EU, OSCE and the UN call Holodomor a genocide. Putins Russia does not (this is Mai and his 'patriotic' stance).

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Joint_Statement_on_Holodomor 

P.S Wikipedia rules.

If you read the link you've give, you'd see, that you're lying. This 'Joint Statement' is not EU/OSCE/UN official document. Asn it isn't state Holodomor as Genocide. 

It is an offical UN statement. Any organisation Russia is in and could block resolutions, the word genocide had to be dropped as a compromise but it's clear from whats written what it really is ( and it's not a natural disaster).

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-108hres356eh/pdf/BILLS-108hres356eh.pdf <<<< USA

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?type=TA&reference=P6-TA-2008-0523&language=EN <<<< E.U

http://www.holodomoreducation.org/UserFiles/File/press-release10-2008.pdf <<<< OSCE





Badassbab said:

Putin talks about the rights of ethnic Russian speaking people in other lands, what about the rights of Tartars and Chechens who would rather not be a part of Russia? Hypocrisy at it's worst.

When was last time when "Tatars and Chechens who would rather not be a part of Russia"? I could understand Chechnya some 15 years ago, you probably heard about it first time from the news :D But now it is scoring sky high as best Putin supporters (but of course it is all a fraud). But why Tatarstan all of a sudden for god's sake? You're talking with ethnic Tatar right now by the way, so careful with your BS.

See that's the playing fast and loose with the facts thing I'm talking about, hiding facts to try and make a point.


Afterall you are not a Crimean Tatar are you?  The ones intentionally starved and deported by the russians.

 

You are  a Siberian Tatar right?  

Ones who never really faced discrimination and who mostly don't consider themselves Tatars in the first place.  (I wonder if even you actually consider yourself a Tatar.)

 

Your expanding out the definition of Tatar from how it is meant in the thread "Crimean" to past even "all those who identify as Tatar" to include a wide group of Tatar's who often have more in common ethnically with non "Tatar" groups then each other because they often have very different origins and were simply just given the same ethnic overlapping name to lump them together because they all have vague possible turkish origins that vary widely.

 

It's like if someone made a an arguement that Cuban Hispanics don't vote Republican, because if you poll all ethnic Hispanics in the USA... they vote Democratic on average.

Of course, this example is unneeded since i fully expect you knew this and intentionally meant to do this.



Badassbab said:
mai said:

On unrelated note...

Badassbab said:

Putin talks about the rights of ethnic Russian speaking people in other lands, what about the rights of Tartars and Chechens who would rather not be a part of Russia? Hypocrisy at it's worst.

When was last time when "Tatars and Chechens who would rather not be a part of Russia"? I could understand Chechnya some 15 years ago, you probably heard about it first time from the news :D But now it is scoring sky high as best Putin supporters (but of course it is all a fraud). But why Tatarstan all of a sudden for god's sake? You're talking with ethnic Tatar right now by the way, so careful with your BS.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/18/us-ukraine-crisis-crimea-tatars-idUSBREA4H06S20140518  <<<< Crimean Tartars don't want to be a part of Russia, they would rather have stayed part of Ukraine.

Chechnya is goverened by a brutal dictator and proped up (and bribed) by Russia not the population. Chechens would rather be independant, you only have to read a history book to see why, they too like the people of Ukraine have suffered terribly under Russian imperialism. If you can't even admit to that then really there's nothing more I can say to you on this subject.

a) the choice of Crimenian Tatars have been confirmed by recent referendum, what exactly in the article you referred to and the fact of the rally that has nothing to do with what you've assumed proves?

b) anything you can provide against the fact that Chechnya scored over 90% on the recent presidential elections for Putin aside of your half-arsed opinion?



Badassbab said:
Sharu said:
Badassbab said:

USA, EU, OSCE and the UN call Holodomor a genocide. Putins Russia does not (this is Mai and his 'patriotic' stance).

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Joint_Statement_on_Holodomor 

P.S Wikipedia rules.

If you read the link you've give, you'd see, that you're lying. This 'Joint Statement' is not EU/OSCE/UN official document. Asn it isn't state Holodomor as Genocide. 

It is an offical UN statement. Any organisation Russia is in and could block resolutions, the word genocide had to be dropped as a compromise but it's clear from whats written what it really is ( and it's not a natural disaster).

The document your quoted is not a resolution, therefore it can't be blocked. This is simply a statement that Russian Federation signed among many, the value of the document is zero.

Let me recap: 1) you quoted propagandistic materials that provide photo documents in order to get the viewer emotionally involved, while ignoring the fact that provided photo documents have nothing to do with the given subject; 2) you've not referred to a single historical document that could have supported your thesis, but few opinionated articles that does not refer to said docuemnts as well, but assume I should take smth they present as facts for granted; 3) you've insulted me multiple times even though I've provided few facts supported by historical documents that directly contradicts your opinion, which you just ignored.

Did I miss anything?



Around the Network
Badassbab said:
mai said:

On unrelated note...

Badassbab said:

Putin talks about the rights of ethnic Russian speaking people in other lands, what about the rights of Tartars and Chechens who would rather not be a part of Russia? Hypocrisy at it's worst.

When was last time when "Tatars and Chechens who would rather not be a part of Russia"? I could understand Chechnya some 15 years ago, you probably heard about it first time from the news :D But now it is scoring sky high as best Putin supporters (but of course it is all a fraud). But why Tatarstan all of a sudden for god's sake? You're talking with ethnic Tatar right now by the way, so careful with your BS.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/18/us-ukraine-crisis-crimea-tatars-idUSBREA4H06S20140518  <<<< Crimean Tartars don't want to be a part of Russia, they would rather have stayed part of Ukraine.

Chechnya is goverened by a brutal dictator and proped up (and bribed) by Russia not the population. Chechens would rather be independant, you only have to read a history book to see why, they too like the people of Ukraine have suffered terribly under Russian imperialism. If you can't even admit to that then really there's nothing more I can say to you on this subject.

This link is about mass gathering for annual event. Where does it say anything about "don't want to be a part of Russia". Only article writer asume that, but it's a given, because it's west-media.

As given the part about how he thinks that they mistrust Russians after 70 years. lol, I guess world still mistrust germans after WW II?))



Final-Fan said:
Sharu said:
German newspaper writes about 400 US mercenaries fighting in Ukraine against people of Lugansk and Donetsk
www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article127862117/Hunderte-US-Soeldner-sollen-fuer-Kiew-im-Einsatz-sein.html#disqus_thread
1. Is this hewspaper ok or is it junkpress?
2. If it is legit, should be started a UN investigation regarding USA firing civil war in Ukraine? Maybe we need some sanctions from EU to USA, or we need to put NATO bases closer to agressors (usa) borders?

If that's true, I expect it's because the mercenaries were hired by Ukraine or other local interests, not sent by US interests.  You won't find Obama on TV saying that they are just Ukrainians that happen to speak American English and use American equipment, or local militias that happen to be composed entirely of ethnically American Ukrainians. 

Does it even become news in US ? Would he be required to do something or even answer about that if it became news ? And if he did why would you not find Obama saying bullshit when Powell told blatant lies to start a war ? Don't be so partial.



mai said:
Badassbab said:
mai said:

On unrelated note...

Badassbab said:

Putin talks about the rights of ethnic Russian speaking people in other lands, what about the rights of Tartars and Chechens who would rather not be a part of Russia? Hypocrisy at it's worst.

When was last time when "Tatars and Chechens who would rather not be a part of Russia"? I could understand Chechnya some 15 years ago, you probably heard about it first time from the news :D But now it is scoring sky high as best Putin supporters (but of course it is all a fraud). But why Tatarstan all of a sudden for god's sake? You're talking with ethnic Tatar right now by the way, so careful with your BS.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/18/us-ukraine-crisis-crimea-tatars-idUSBREA4H06S20140518  <<<< Crimean Tartars don't want to be a part of Russia, they would rather have stayed part of Ukraine.

Chechnya is goverened by a brutal dictator and proped up (and bribed) by Russia not the population. Chechens would rather be independant, you only have to read a history book to see why, they too like the people of Ukraine have suffered terribly under Russian imperialism. If you can't even admit to that then really there's nothing more I can say to you on this subject.

a) the choice of Crimenian Tatars have been confirmed by recent referendum, what exactly in the article you referred to and the fact of the rally that has nothing to do with what you've assumed proves?

b) anything you can provide against the fact that Chechnya scored over 90% on the recent presidential elections for Putin aside of your half-arsed opinion?

Oh yes THAT referendum. You know the one where  96.7% of the voters under an illegal military occupation decided they want to be a part of Russia. Such astonishing results reminds me of Presidential elections held in Syria, North Korea and Iraq under Saddam and other similary free human rights loving democracies. There is no way it could have been a fraud ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXG67YJVZuQ ), especially when it had the backing of Russia which is a country where the the rule of law prevails, society is open, dissent is tolerated and the media is free. I'm certain Crimean Tartars (and Ukrainians) wanted Crimea to be a part of Russia all along given their wonderful history with them, after all the Mejlis of Crimean Tartar didn't boycott the referendum (http://en.ria.ru/world/20140307/188153844/Crimean-Tatar-Minority-to-Boycott-Secession-Vote.html ) and the EODE who helped monitor the results said it was a free and fair voting process ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_Observatory_for_Democracy_%26_Elections ). Oh just thought I'd mention Putin hates fascists which is why the EODE helped to monitor the referendum (unlike OSCE & the UN  who didn't send any observers...I wonder why?).

Yep Chechans love Putin, he only lauched a devasting war against them thats all. Again 90% +  for Putin is very believable, the elections again were free and fair, no fraud, nothing of the sort took place http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/21/us-russia-chechnya-elections-idUSTRE7BK1CA20111221 . In fact he's so popular some even voted for him more than once http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/06/world/europe/fraudulent-votes-for-putin-abound-in-chechnya.html?_r=1.

FACEPALM.



Facts About the 1933 Famine-Genocide in Soviet Occupied Ukraine

1. Censuses

In late 1932 - precisely when the genocidal famine struck - the Central Statistical Bureau in Moscow ceased to publish demographic data.

The 1937 census was given top priority. The census director I. Kravel was awarded the Order of Lenin for his meticulous work. After the results of the 1937 census were submitted to the Government, the census was declared "subversive", its materials destroyed and the top census officials were shot for not finding enough people.

2. Harvest and Climatic Conditions

The "natural disaster" excuse to cover up the 1933 Famine-Genocide does not hold water. It was not caused by some natural calamity or crop failure:

The 1931 harvest was 18.3 million tons of grain.
The 1932 harvest was 14.6 million tons of grain.
The 1933 harvest was 22.3 million tons of grain.
The 1934 harvest was 12.3 million tons of grain.
In 1934 during the poorest harvest - a mere 12.3 - there was no massive famine because Stalin reduced the grain requisition quotas and even released grain from existing "state stockpiles" to feed the population.
The highest death rates were in the grain growing provinces of Poltava, Dnipropetrovsk, Kirovohrad and Odessa: usually 20-25%, although higher in many villages.

3. Laws and Decrees

The 7 August 1932 law drafted by Joseph Stalin on the protection of the socialist property stipulated the death penalty for "theft of socialist property". Ukrainian villagers were executed by firing squads for theft of a sack of wheat and in some cases even for two sheaves of corn or a husk of grain.
The 6 December 1932 decree stipulated a complete blockade of villages for allegedly sabotaging the grain procurement campaign - de facto sentencing their Ukrainian inhabitants to execution by starvation.
An unpublished decree signed by Molotov encouraged Russian peasants to settle into the empty or half-empty villages of "the free lands of Ukraine" [and North Caucasus also inhabited by Ukrainians and likewise devastated by the famine].
4. Means of Implementing Forced Collectivization and Draconian Grain Requisition Quotas

The All-Union Peoples Commissariat of Agriculture in Moscow initially mobilized some of its most reliable ‘25-thousanders' -Party members, majority of them Russians - and sent them to Ukraine to organize collective farms.
Further ‘thousanders,' the army, the secret police [GPU], the militia and armed brigades were sent into Ukrainian villages to force the farmers into collective farms and to supervise the Draconian grain expropriation and eventually the entire output of butter, corn, sugar beet, etc.
Local granaries in Ukraine held large stockpiles of ‘state reserves' for emergencies, such as war, but the raging famine did not qualify as an emergency.
5. Geography of the Famine

The 1933 Famine-Genocide was geographically focused for political ends. It stopped precisely at the Ukrainian-Russian ethnographic border.
The borders of Ukraine were strictly patrolled by the military to prevent starving Ukrainians from crossing into Russia in search of bread.
For example: The Kharkiv Province on the Ukrainian side was devastated while the contiguous Belgorod Province on the Russian side with similar climatic conditions and demographic profiles showed no evidence of starvation or any unusual mortality.
Armed GPU officers were also stationed to prevent starving Ukrainians from entering the zone near the Polish and Romanian borders. Those who tried to cross the Dnister River into Romania were shot.
6. Exports

The Soviet regime dumped 1.7 million tons of grain on the Western markets at the height of the Famine. It exported nearly a quarter of a ton of grain for every Ukrainian who starved to death.

7. Victims and Losses

At the height of the Famine Ukrainian villagers were dying at the rate of 25,000 per day or 1,000 per hour or 17 per minute.
By comparison the Allied soldiers died at the rate of 6,000 per day during the Battle of Verdun.
Among the children one in three perished as a consequence of collectivization and the famine.
According to dissident Soviet demographer M. Maksudov "no fewer than three million children born between 1932-1933 died of hunger."
80% of Ukrainian intellectuals were liquidated because they refused to collaborate in the extermination of their countrymen.
Out of about 240 Ukrainian authors 200 were liquidated or disappeared. Out of about 84 linguists 62 perished.
The Ukrainian population may have been reduced by as much as 25%.
8. Western Press Coverage

Foreign correspondents were "advised" by the press department of the Soviet Commissariat for Foreign Affairs to remain in Moscow and were de facto barred from visiting Ukraine.
Not a single Western newspaper or press agency protested publicly against the unprecedented confining of its correspondents in Moscow or bothered to investigate the reason for this extraordinary measure.
The majority of reporters feared losing their journalistic privileges and toed the line.
The only correspondents permitted into Ukraine were the likes of Walter Duranty of the New York Times who reported that there was no famine except for some "partial crop failures."
Star reporter Walter Duranty of the New York Times set the tone for most of the Western press coverage with authoritative denials of starvation and referred to the Famine as the "alleged ‘man-made' famine of 1933."
However, according to British Diplomatic Reports, Duranty off the record, conceded that "as many as 10 million" may have perished.
For his reporting Walter Duranty received the Pulitzer Prize for journalism. To this date the New York Times refuses to revoke the prize and still lists Duranty among its Pulitzer winners.

A number of intrepid reporters, such as William Henry Chamberlin, Harry Lang, Malcolm Muggeridge and Thomas Walker ignored the ban and reported on the Famine, substantiating their reports with photographs.
9. Collusion by Western Governments

Available archival evidence (such as reports sent in diplomatic pouches as well as coverage on the press by a few honest and courageous reporters who managed to penetrate into starving Ukraine) indicates that several Western governments (especially Great Britain, Canada and the United States) were well informed about the Famine-Genocide in Ukraine but chose to adopt a policy on non-interference in the internal affairs of a foreign sovereign state. Ironically, the United States recognized the Soviet Union in November, 1933.

Offers to aid the starving by numerous charitable organizations such as the International Red Cross, Save the Children Fund, the Vienna-based Interconfessional Relief Council and Ukrainian organizations in the West and Western Ukraine (occupied by Poland) were discouraged or blocked by their Governments.

10. Findings and Conclusions

The U.S. Congress 1988 Commission on the Ukraine famine in its "Investigation of the Ukraine Famine of 1932-1933" concluded that: JOSEPH STALIN AND THOSE AROUND HIM COMMITTED GENOCIDE AGAINST UKRAINIANS IN 1932-1933.

Sources consulted:



Conquest Robert The Harvest of Sorrow. Soviet Collectivization and the Terror-Famine. Edmonton: University of Alberta Press, 1986.

Dolot, Miron Execution by Hunger: The Hidden Holocaust. New York: W. W. Norton, 1985.

Famine in Ukraine 1932-1933 Edited by Roman Serbyn and Bohdan Kravchenko. Edmonton: Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies, 1986.



Badassbab said:

Oh yes THAT referendum. You know the one where  96.7% of the voters under an illegal military occupation decided they want to be a part of Russia. Such astonishing results reminds me of Presidential elections held in Syria, North Korea and Iraq under Saddam and other similary free human rights loving democracies. There is no way it could have been a fraud ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXG67YJVZuQ ), especially when it had the backing of Russia which is a country where the the rule of law prevails, society is open, dissent is tolerated and the media is free. I'm certain Crimean Tartars (and Ukrainians) wanted Crimea to be a part of Russia all along given their wonderful history with them, after all the Mejlis of Crimean Tartar didn't boycott the referendum (http://en.ria.ru/world/20140307/188153844/Crimean-Tatar-Minority-to-Boycott-Secession-Vote.html) and the EODE who helped monitor the results said it was a free and fair voting process ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_Observatory_for_Democracy_%26_Elections ). Oh just thought I'd mention Putin hates fascists which is why the EODE helped to monitor the referendum (unlike OSCE & the UN  who didn't send any observers...I wonder why?).

Yep Chechans love Putin, he only lauched a devasting war against them thats all. Again 90% +  for Putin is very believable, the elections again were free and fair, no fraud, nothing of the sort took place http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/21/us-russia-chechnya-elections-idUSTRE7BK1CA20111221 . In fact he's so popular some even voted for him more than once http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/06/world/europe/fraudulent-votes-for-putin-abound-in-chechnya.html?_r=1.

FACEPALM.

In another words you don't have anything to counter the facts of said referendum and elections that has been witnessed and confirmed by multiple international observers aside from your opinion based on journalistic publications supported by what exactly? Do you want me to google a bunch of journalisitc publications with drastically different stance on the referendum and that'd pass for an argument?

//On your video, the girl said it herself that she is registered in Simferopol = she has a legal right to vote. What are you suggesting here?