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Forums - Politics Discussion - What does Putin want with Ukraine

 

What is his end state

Annex Ukraine As a whole 337 40.60%
 
Annex Crimea 286 34.46%
 
Defend Russian People Fro... 184 22.17%
 
Total:807
Jon-Erich said:
mai said:

Novorossia has been officially declared.

How do you like the flag? :D

The Confederate States of America called. They want their flag back.

This one is substantially older then CSA flag, both are variations of St.Andrew's flag on the red field.



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deskpro2k3 said:
It was called Novorossia in the 18th century by the Russian Empire when they conquered it. I guess they conquered Ukraine again?

Historically Novorossia never was referred as Ukraine until the Ukrainian SSR.



And on top of all ANNA news channel has been blocked on Youtube :/ Even though I never liked Musin's "analytics", the videos from the Syrian fronlines were the best out there, as close to the action as possible. Now when they've just started covering Ukraine, they've got blocked for some far-fetched reason. Bummer. They'll probably shift to some Russian hosting service and we'll still get their reports, but popularity never will be the same.



mai said:

And on top of all ANNA news channel has been blocked on Youtube :/ Even though I never liked Musin's "analytics", the videos from the Syrian fronlines were the best out there, as close to the action as possible. Now when they've just started covering Ukraine, they've got blocked for some far-fetched reason. Bummer. They'll probably shift to some Russian hosting service and we'll still get their reports, but popularity never will be the same.

Censoring in western media became crazy lately...  Seams that they know they are wrong and trying to have a monopoly on the ideology...



Jon-Erich said:

 

Joking aside, I know exactly what Russia wanted with Crimea. Forget about "properly restoring Crimera to Russia" or anything like that. I briefly read an interesting article in a newspaper recently while waiting for my Chai Tea at Starbucks. Apparently, off the shores of Crimea is untapped oil. Ukraine never bothered to go after this oil most likely because of the Russian influence over Ukrainian politics over the last decade. Had Ukraine gotten to this oil, they might have been able to become energy independent from Russia, meaning that Russia would have less leverage over influencing Ukraine's politics. Although, the article did not directly accuse Russia of getting Crimea in order to capture oil reserves, it's kind of obvious. Russia doesn't need that oil since they already have a lot of their own oil, but it would be in their best interest for Ukraine to not get that oil.

No, we wanted Natalia Poklonskaya, Prosecutor General of the Republic of Crimea.

Isn't she adorable?



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mai said:
deskpro2k3 said:
It was called Novorossia in the 18th century by the Russian Empire when they conquered it. I guess they conquered Ukraine again?

Historically Novorossia never was referred as Ukraine until the Ukrainian SSR.

First, Russia did not 'conquer' Crimea in late February:
They were invited to protect UKR citizens by UKR's legal President, following an illegal coup.
While doing this, locals organized an independence referendum, in line with sentiment they had historically demonstrated, and in line with the international law recognition of right of self-determination. Russia recognized that vote and allowed them to accede to Russia per their wishes.

The right of self-determination is understood as being balanced by or subject to the laws/norms of the sovereign state ruling that territory.  But the illegal Kiev junta (not meeting Constitutional requirement for impeaching the President) had already illegally gutted the Constitutional Court, which is the only body competent to rule on matters related to the Autonomous Republic of Crimea, per the Ukrainian Constitution... Thus there never was any valid act by sovereign Ukraine against, or over-ruling, the referendum, which international law by default recognizes the right to, UNLESS over-ruled by the over-arching sovereignty, which didn't happen here.

This aspect is glossed over my most Western media, apparently because it introduces "inconvenient details" whose implications aren't desired.  If Western countries had a problem with Russia's reasoning, they had and have full opportunity to dispute it: Russia made it's position clear from the beginning on non-recognition of the coup's legitimacy, not taking any action for nearly a week... Yet Russia's polite diplomatic approach to the issue was simply ignored and swept under the rug by the West, revelling in their moment of "victory".  The US does not even attempt to dispute the legal issue, they just claim to ascribe legitimacy to the coup on some vague supra-legal basis.

Regardless of what the US wishes to recognize, it is not incomprehensible that many Ukrainian citizens in fact take seriously the legal processes laid out by their Constitution, and don't consider illegal violations of them to be a legitimate basis of government, and thus will organize and resist against any groups attempting to illegally impose their power by force. This is reflected by the large #'s of police and military, including top commanders, who sided with the Crimea and Donbass against the junta.  Realistically, nobody has any large desire for, much less belief in the viability of, returning the previous Yanukovych Presidential regime to power, but that doesn't change the fact the Kiev junta is seen as a revolution outside the previous legal norm, and thus any other group of citizens has just as much right to attempt to steer events in their own desired "revolutionary" direction, not conceding any monopoly on legiticy or force to the coup regime.

Secondly,
Novorussia was not a Ukrainian territory conquered by Imperial Russia, but rather was conquered from the Crimean Khanate.  The area was known as the Wild Lands because it was depopulated due to the continual slave-raiding of the Khanate.  Alot of Ukrainians later moved into this area along with Russians, but this was conscious migration to a Russian province, just as other areas of Russia, including all the way to Siberia and the Far East, were settled by Ukrainian migrants... Ignoring these details to use the formula "Ukraine is where ethnic Ukrainians live" (why not Canada too?) simply is ignoring actual historical boundaries, with Novorussia not being associated to Kiev until by act of the Soviet Communists... Who seem a strange authority to depend upon, given the tendency to associate modern Russia with the crimes of the Soviet Communists (particularly the ethnic Georgian Stalin, AKA Ioseb Jughashvili).

What's weird, as I've learned and understood:
Alot of cities in Novorussia now have alternate Ukrainian names that were ahistorically imposed, despite them being founded and named in Russian, and everybody who moved there being aware of the real name and capable of using it, whether within standard Russian, Ukrainian, or Surzyk conversation.  ...Surzyk being seen as an unofficial blend of Russian and Ukrainian that exists in a plurality of variations rather than one standardized form,  yet "it" is as much the authentic language of most residents of Ukraine, Ukrainian historically not existing in a binary exclusion to Russian, but rather in a continuously varying continuum with "standard Russian"... With 'standard Ukrainian' only later being politically imposed.

Relatedly, the imposition of 'standard Ukrainian' (and Ukrainian identity to go along with it) clashed with another ethnicity and language known as Rusyn, in the mountains near Hungary.  This region was one of the most recent to join the borders of Ukraine, having long been ruled by Hungary (and a significant ethnic Hungarian minority continues to live here).  Rusyn is most closely related to Ukrainian, yet the Rusyn people, while embracing a "fraternal identiy"  equally inclusive of Russian as of "Ukrainian", reject their assimilation into a "Ukrainian" construct, insisting on their own unique identity while Ukrainian nationalist dogma does not recognize that and insists they are (ethnic) "Ukrainian".  That is highly ironic because Ukrainian national ideology itself struggled to assert itself as an actual "language", as opposed to dialect of Russian, yet is happy to assert the same dominance over Rusyns that they claim to be victimized by the more populace standard Russian.  I believe similar micro-ethnos exist along the northern and north-east borders of Ukraine, albeit with less cohesive resistance to Ukrainianization.



mai said:

Novorossia has been officially declared.

How do you like the flag? :D

I don't really like it, it seems too much like Russian Navy flag (I didn't notice the similarity to US South flag at first).
I think the Black-Red-Blue would be better, or even Donetsk Oblast's "sun rising over black sea",
although since that's Donetsk specific it might be awkward for the entire region...
(although it makes more sense, since Donetsk isn't even ON the Black Sea)



Sharu said:

Censoring in western media became crazy lately...  Seams that they know they are wrong and trying to have a monopoly on the ideology...

Indeed...
And it's not like acknowledging all facts means Russia suddenly becomes pure and good, it just means acknowledging the messy, gritty details.
But still there is a tendency to not acknowledge any details or technicalities which would seem beneficial to "the other side's" perspective.
...While of course claiming whatever tangential fact beneficial to their own side conclusively resolves the issue completely.

I even read a US article denouncing Russia's winning of a UN Law of Sea Court ruling on EEZ as some evidence of Russian aggression,
despite Russia following all the rules, and not imposing any exclusivity until the court itself ruled that it was their EEZ. (Okhotsk pocket)
Likewise, I read so much hystericism suggesting Russia had some imminent conflict with Norway,
until lo and behold, both sides negotiated a resolution defining a previously  undefined border in the Arctic EEZ.
Up until then, it was portrayed as all Russia's fault for having a conflicting claim, as if any grey area by default should be ruled against Russia.
Obviously no self-respecting country would accept a norm that says any gray area is automatically ruled against them with prejudice,
yet essentially such a standard is routinely promulgated in mainstream Western media, without any reflection.

Although the US and EU seem happy to ignore even clear court rulings in plenty of other cases where it is convenient to them,
e.g. Eritrea winning arbitration on border with Ethiopia, Ethiopia ignoring the ruling completely, and continuing their war vs. Eritrea,
yet Ethiopia is majorly backed by Western powers because it is more useful/important to them than Eritrea
(which regretably descended into a crazy military dictatorship while facing war vs. much larger Ethiopia, itself having undemocratic government)
Or of course the US ignoring of the ruling against it for sponsoring terrorism in Nicaragua, sabotaging ports, etc.



Wow, Janucovich is a smart man!

(To the left is Mr Poroshenko, newly elected Ukr president. To the right is Janukovich, former Ukr president, laid down by Maidan)



Yup, worry you will get over-thrown, just clone yourself and have your clone run as "opposition".

Poroshenko's actual history isn't far off from that from what I understand, also starting his "business" with corrupt Soviet background, founding Party of Regions, defecting to back "Orange" until that failed to it's own corruption, rejoining PoR backers, and then turning on them (now).

He's pretty much a blank slate with no accountability for hs past because he's stayed out of actual political positions himself, up to now... In his latest coup-run election win, he flatly refused to debate the other major coup-affiliated candidate, Julia Timoshenko (herself heavily tainted by her stint as PM in the discredited Orange Revolution), basically meaning he didn't need to rigorously defend any policy direction, he could just broadcast glittering generalities with his own private media empire (which he refuses to get rid of while he is serving as President).