By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Nintendo - The truth about Nintendo

 

What do you think about Nintendo's attitude?

Awful, they should fail i... 189 14.04%
 
Pretty Bad, they should l... 385 28.60%
 
Not bad, they're just as anybody else 188 13.97%
 
Good, we need more like them 389 28.90%
 
Excellent, they don't need to change one bit 173 12.85%
 
Total:1,324

"1 dollar spent on Sony or Microsoft products means 1 dollar to feed hardware and software developers for the production of more and better games. 1 dollar spent on Nintendo products means a very significant part of it out of the videogaming industry. It’s interesting to realize that the only 100% gaming corporation making consoles nowadays is also the only one taking money away from the gaming cycle.

32B$, that is Nintendo’s “debt” towards gamers as of 2011. 1.2B$ is the Sony’s “debt” as of 2010 but now it must be nothing. With Microsoft, it’s the opposite: gamers have a “debt” of 6.8B$ as of 2011."

As the wishfull utopian op pointed out, Sony and Microsoft are losing money (or just breaking even), and Nintendo is making a profit (it seems these are the lifetime profits of the brand, not a yearly).  So, the OP, who doesn't seem to understand business, will be heartbroken when Nintendo is around in 5 years, and either Sony or Microsoft pulls a Sega and exits the console business because they aren't making a profit.

Microsoft will probably be the company that pulls out, unless the Xbox One becomes very profitable.  Also, Sony is one mistake away from a company to losing everything.  Playstation in that case would probably be bought during a liquidation, if the PS4 is actually making a profit.  We honestly don't know if Sony or Microsoft are making money.  Sure, Sony isn't taking a huge loss on the hardware, but investing into its 1st and 2nd party games, as well as lining up exclusive 3rd party content, is risky, and they might not be able to recoup the investment if the games do not sell well.

Nintendo is taking a beating lately, since they have finally entered the HD age, and have seen their game budgets rise.  They just aren't selling enough of their 1st and 2nd party titles in order to gain that money back.



Around the Network
sundin13 said:

a. Definition of Evolution:

I've already told you that the way you are thinking about evolution is wrong and explained myself. You are saying the way that I am thinking about it is "wrong" or "different" but I am thinking about it in the context in which the word was designed to be used (the scientific sense). In this sense, what you are saying is evolution is wrong.

Because of this, you need to present your own definition of "evolution". Gathering from what you have said already, it is not just about time ("Evolution is not only about time. Vocal music is instrumental + voice. Instrumental-only is...well, I think it's obvious."). By this you mean to say that because vocal music has instrumentals, it is more "evolved". However! Vocals are essentially only an instrument. I think most people involved in music would say that vocals are no easier or harder than playing an instrument and holding them at a higher level than instruments is making a value judgement.

By this rule, all instruments (including voice) are equal, so would you not say that the more instruments something has the more "evolved" it is? Would this not match your definition of evolution perfectly and more objectively that assigning a value judgement to vocals? Therefore, symphonic music, which nintendo uses and has used for quite some time, meaning, arguably, using your definition of the word, symphonic music is the most evolved form of video game music and Nintendo evolved faster and further than most video games?

I agree, voice is just another instrument. But then I answer you what I've said already to MDM:

"If you are able to count the number of instruments used to create the soundtrack in Mario 64 and the same number regarding Sonic Adventure 1, then feel free to post them here. I can't and therefore vocal music is one of the few indicators I have at disposal."

 

sundin13 said:

b. Technological Limitation vs the Industry Standard:

Okay, I see what you are saying here. So lets go down to your final point where you show me a few examples of early games featuring music including vocals.

First, I would like to talk about Licenced Soundtracks. Your point here is counterproductive. You speak of the "effort" taken to create something and then you praise when a game company simply buys songs released by musicians elsewhere? This is highly contradictory and from an objective standpoint, it takes infinitely more effort to create a song than it does to pay to use a song someone else has already created. 

I would like to see some more examples featuring original music to prove to me when it became the "industry standard"...

Additionally, I would like to talk about Nintendo for a moment. Between 2002-2003, Nintendo released both F-Zero GX and Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker, which both featured original vocal performances (choir in WW, lyrics in F-Zero) around the time where you claimed it was becoming the industry standard...

It's not contradictory. You use money instead of effort, which is also a sign of commitment. In the end, everything falls into one of the 3 variables I have been presenting: effort, time and money. They don't mean quality, but they mean commitment to quality.

Note that Sonic Adventure has an exclusive soundtrack, so it was not just about licensing music, they hired bands to produce tailored music tracks to game levels and characters. Nintendo did the same with Mario Galaxy, or do you think they created an entire orchestra by themselves and that now it's part of their studios?

Original music hasn't become the standard (vocal music has). Yet, more examples of games with original vocal music: Sonic R (1997), Sonic Adventure 2 (2001), TrackMania Sunrise (2005), Crashday (2006), TrackMania 2 (2011).

WipEout (1995) has also original vocal performances, but they are very limited. How are they on F-Zero GX and Zelda Wind Waker?

 

sundin13 said:

c. Which took more effort?:

Unfortunately I am unable to listen to these at the moment but I will say that it is impossible to determine effort by listening to something objectively... I will get back to this question later today if you wish me too

Sure. Take the time you need.



Prediction made in 14/01/2014 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 100M      XOne: 70M      WiiU: 25M

Prediction made in 01/04/2016 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 100M      XOne: 50M      WiiU: 18M

Prediction made in 15/04/2017 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 90M      XOne: 40M      WiiU: 15M      Switch: 20M

Prediction made in 24/03/2018 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 110M      XOne: 50M      WiiU: 14M      Switch: 65M

IsawYoshi said:
I agree that Nintendo haven't invested enough back to us, but this is business. They have a way to do it, and unlike sony and ms way it isn't currently making tons of devs go bankrupt.

I will say though, you make it seem as the N64 and the GC was weak systems compared to their respective competitors. That is completely wrong, both those systems were plwerful for their time, the GC being more powerful than the PS2 forexample. As the gamers didn't pay their "debt" to nintendo for being more powerful and pushing gaming forward, they didn't see the need to pay back with wii.

This poster knows what he is talking about.


Don't forget to mention that Nintendo has done most of the innovating in the industry.  Sony doesn't care about innovation, but mainly adding more power into their system.  Microsoft's only innovation has been the online multiplayer capabilities of console gaming (which, before the xbox was pretty crappy).

Gamers owe a lot to Nintendo, whether they realize it or not.  Sure, Nintendo pulled out of the losing battle that is taking place over whose console is more powerful, but in doing so they have focused on making games more fun to play.  Personally, I don't give a damn about the motion controls of the Wii, but a lot of people did.  The Wii had some damn good games on it though.  I do love the gamepad on my Wii U, probably because I love my DS and 3DS also.  

Let's also not forget that Microsoft and Sony keep copying everything Nintendo does.  Nintendo brings us motion controls, so Sony and Microsoft bring us Kinect and Move.  Nintendo has the gamepad, so Sony uses tablets (what a joke) and Microsoft has it's Glass stuff that I don't know much about.

Gamers need to quit bashing Nintendo just because they try to do things differently.  Without Nintendo, we would have a lot less games on the market, and a lot less variety.  Without Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft wouldn't do anything other than building steam boxes without steam.



Zod95 said:
sundin13 said:

a. Definition of Evolution:

I've already told you that the way you are thinking about evolution is wrong and explained myself. You are saying the way that I am thinking about it is "wrong" or "different" but I am thinking about it in the context in which the word was designed to be used (the scientific sense). In this sense, what you are saying is evolution is wrong.

Because of this, you need to present your own definition of "evolution". Gathering from what you have said already, it is not just about time ("Evolution is not only about time. Vocal music is instrumental + voice. Instrumental-only is...well, I think it's obvious."). By this you mean to say that because vocal music has instrumentals, it is more "evolved". However! Vocals are essentially only an instrument. I think most people involved in music would say that vocals are no easier or harder than playing an instrument and holding them at a higher level than instruments is making a value judgement.

By this rule, all instruments (including voice) are equal, so would you not say that the more instruments something has the more "evolved" it is? Would this not match your definition of evolution perfectly and more objectively that assigning a value judgement to vocals? Therefore, symphonic music, which nintendo uses and has used for quite some time, meaning, arguably, using your definition of the word, symphonic music is the most evolved form of video game music and Nintendo evolved faster and further than most video games?

I agree, voice is just another instrument. But then I answer you what I've said already to MDM:

"If you are able to count the number of instruments used to create the soundtrack in Mario 64 and the same number regarding Sonic Adventure 1, then feel free to post them here. I can't and therefore vocal music is one of the few indicators I have at disposal."

 

sundin13 said:

b. Technological Limitation vs the Industry Standard:

Okay, I see what you are saying here. So lets go down to your final point where you show me a few examples of early games featuring music including vocals.

First, I would like to talk about Licenced Soundtracks. Your point here is counterproductive. You speak of the "effort" taken to create something and then you praise when a game company simply buys songs released by musicians elsewhere? This is highly contradictory and from an objective standpoint, it takes infinitely more effort to create a song than it does to pay to use a song someone else has already created. 

I would like to see some more examples featuring original music to prove to me when it became the "industry standard"...

Additionally, I would like to talk about Nintendo for a moment. Between 2002-2003, Nintendo released both F-Zero GX and Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker, which both featured original vocal performances (choir in WW, lyrics in F-Zero) around the time where you claimed it was becoming the industry standard...

It's not contradictory. You use money instead of effort, which is also a sign of commitment. In the end, everything falls into one of the 3 variables I have been presenting: effort, time and money. They don't mean quality, but they mean commitment to quality.

Note that Sonic Adventure has an exclusive soundtrack, so it was not just about licensing music, they hired bands to produce tailored music tracks to game levels and characters. Nintendo did the same with Mario Galaxy, or do you think they created an entire orchestra by themselves and that now it's part of their studios?

Original music hasn't become the standard (vocal music has). Yet, more examples of games with original vocal music: Sonic R (1997), Sonic Adventure 2 (2001), TrackMania Sunrise (2005), Crashday (2006), TrackMania 2 (2011).

WipEout (1995) has also original vocal performances, but they are very limited. How are they on F-Zero GX and Zelda Wind Waker?

 

sundin13 said:

c. Which took more effort?:

Unfortunately I am unable to listen to these at the moment but I will say that it is impossible to determine effort by listening to something objectively... I will get back to this question later today if you wish me too

Sure. Take the time you need.

a. So you are admitting to using a flawed metric that in essence, says absolutely nothing about anything. Good, I'm glad we are on the same page and agree that you are just making things up because its convenient. 

Also, as such you are admitting that games like Mario galaxy (feature a 50 piece orchestra) are among the most "evolved" of all video game music, and certainly more evolved than licenced soundtracks. 

b. Once again, I laugh at the fact that you assume that in any way, licenced soundtracks are greater (note: I didn't say superior) than original soundtracks. Original soundtracks take a large amount of effort and time and money whereas licenced soundtracks only really take money. I think by your own metrics, we can agree that original soundtracks are greater than licenced in two out of three or your categories, with the third being inconclusive without knowing specific figures which are verifiably impossible to attain. 

You say that Sonic Adventure used an original soundtrack, but one game franchise does not an industry standard make. Other people have already posted examples of Nintendo using vocals in their songs all the way back in the SNES era. (your snide comment about Nintendo buying an orchestra is not appreciated by the way). I would also like to add that Nintendo composed all of the music in the Super Mario Galaxy series, they didn't simply hand it off to an orchestra and tell them to write music...

Additionally, it seems to me from the examples you posted that "vocal music" became the "industry standard" in the mid 2000s and as I have already pointed out, Nintendo implemented vocals in their music long before then and they certainly didn't follow anybody.

Also, you are equating Sonic and Mario in some of your quotes and saying that they are the same type of game but I would disagree. Sonic tries to be "cool" (see: Shadow the Hedgehog) and as such implements cheezy rock soundtracks into their games while Mario games tend to be more whimsical and as such impliment a very different style of music (fun fact: Super Mario Galaxy was originally going to have a latin inspired soundtrack, however after completing 28 tracks, it was decided that it just didn't fit the feel of the game. As such, the music was changed to orchestral compositions). You said that you fail to see why Nintendo didn't follow in SEGA's footsteps with the mario games and I think that is pretty clear by the reception the soundtracks from mario games tend to receive (IGN gave Mario Galaxy a Perfect 10 in Audio). 

Finally, Wind Waker uses a choir in many of the songs on its soundtrack while F-Zero uses lyrics for the character introductions (and possibly more, I don't remember)...

EDIT: After listening to a few songs from the soundtracks you suggested to me earlier I can objectively say that I cannot objectively say which required more effort. In my opinion, they are all well suited to their respective games and using one soundtrack style for the other game would negatively impact the game as a whole (my opinion of course).

I still don't know where you get off judging "effort" just by listening to something. There is a lot that goes into music. I'll tell you, as a musician, some of my best songs I composed over the course of an afternoon (or even during improvisation) while others which I think are worse I spent weeks and weeks on.



Zod95 said:
Final-Fan said:

1.  I wasn't ignoring the realistic aspects—I was arguing that they were not, in fact, as realistic as you were claiming they were.  As for big/small being subjective and therefore something you're not going to discuss, why don't we just say that no two video games are exactly the same and therefore nothing can be determined?  Also, 'design goal' isn't what I meant by philosophy.

No, you talked about other aspects (lack of damage on characters, etc.), you didn't refute mine (real fighting techniques, etc.).

I will not say nothing can be determined because actually it can. Only on this forum people have shown such a hate for the OP (because it severely criticizes Nintendo) that they've become obsessed at refuting anything that was there to the point that neutral arguments became "bias" and facts became "blatant lies". With this kind of soldiers, there's no truth that can "survive".

Ultimately (and we've already got there), anything can be viewed as an opinion, not a fact. You can think about any general statement you could make regarding Nintendo, Sony or Microsoft. Take the time you need. Pick the one that you think to be undeniable. I can say in advance (without knowing what it is) that it's an opinion, not a fact. And, using the same "argumentative weapons" as people here have been using, I can show it.

Now imagine this ultra-phylosophical mindset dominating journalism, science and other areas. It would kill them. People are not being reasonable and they know it. They are just protecting Nintendo at all costs.

Final-Fan said:

2.  I think common sense is that human beings have been singing for as long as we have been able to communicate, if not even earlier.  This, in my opinion, probably predates the origin of artificially created instruments, and, in my opinion, when those instruments were created, they were used to accompany singing.  In that case, instrumental + vocal would predate instrumental only.  Where in this line of thinking do you disagree?

See my reply to MDM: "I'm talking about music as an established form of art, which began to be instrumental-only.".

Final-Fan said:

Also, instrumental-only music often, and unsurprisingly, has more complexity in the instrumental music than instrumental + vocal does in only the instrumental portion of that music.  So doesn't this undermine what you are saying about complexity?  And how about the fact that both "I" and "I+V" music have been around for centuries or millennia, "evolving" on their own before being applied to video games?  Doesn't that also make it a bit silly to argue about which one is more evolved than the other?

How can you claim it has more complexity? Why don't you say that's just your opinion?

History of Music is one of several arguments to show evolution, of course it's not enough by itself.

Final-Fan said:

3.  There's a pretty big flaw in that, but I don't want to completely derail the conversation, so for that reason I do not want to continue down this road.  (But if you are too curious, then it is regarding the fact that all companies are motivated by profit, and you are just assuming that Nintendo's products aren't high quality because you can't see it vs. the other products you like more or 'can perceive the remarkable achievements of more easily' (<-not an actual quote).)

I'm not assuming they aren't high quality because my focus isn't on quality but commitment to it (remember our conversation on the Unity thread?). Commitment is easier to perceive through objective variables like effort, time and money.

1.  No, I said, essentially, 'yes, they may emulate real fighting techniques, but they also have ridiculous crap like Ivy's chain sword etc.', which segues into a more general point about the relative levels of realism in both games.  But even concentrating on just the fighting techniques, I ADDRESSED YOUR POINTS, and you just dismissed it. 

As for the MDM challenge:  "Nintendo has made more profit off of games than Sony or Microsoft." 

I also have a bonus challenge in mind, but it's only for after you're completely done fulfilling your challenge on the above statement.  "The fact that Nintendo is completely reliant on video game sales as a company suggests it has more at stake concerning the well-being and future of the video game industry than either Microsoft or Sony, and therefore more reason to care about it." 

2a.  First, when do you say music became an "established form of art", and what is your evidence for that claim?  Second, where is your evidence that instrumental music predates V+I music in the "established art" form? 

As for me, I would expect that both of them have been "established forms of art" since practically the dawn of civilization, or at least of comparable antiquity, along with vocal-only art.  But I will not claim this is actually the case based only on my guess, never mind that it's an educated guess. 

2b.  I didn't base that assertion on my opinion of those types of music, but rather logic.  Consider: 
–Since I+V music is, in fact, I PLUS V, doesn't it stand to reason that if you take out all the complexity in the V part, the I-only remains will be likely to be less complex than I-only music that still has all of its complexity and was DESIGNED to be complete by itself while the I-minus-V music wasn't? 
–Doesn't it stand to reason that the more components are in something, the more complexity can be achieved?  Nintendo's orchestral music would therefore have much more potential complexity than a rock band with less than a dozen people in it (including the singer). 

3.  Dammit.  The same thing applies:  you don't perceive the COMMITMENT of Nintendo.  Do you honestly think it's cheap to hire an entire ORCHESTRA?!  No, this is too distracting.  Never mind. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Around the Network
Zod95 said:

#1 That is not proved. Nevertheless, I'm talking about music as an established form of art, which began to be instrumental-only.


#2 If we're talking about 1 music track, of course it doesn't. But if we're talking about several and large soundtracks, it becomes harder to believe that the games that comprise vocal music are not more complex than the ones that don't have it at all.

 

#3 That doesn't seem weird, it's quite logical. If you are able to count the number of instruments used to create the soundtrack in Mario 64 and the same number regarding Sonic Adventure 1, then feel free to post them here. I can't and therefore vocal music is one of the few indicators I have at disposal.


#4 "
it only suggests", I haven't jumped to any conclusions.

@#1:  That is an arbitrary definition for the beginning of music since there are many cultures that used singing as their primary source of music.  Singing, by nature, is easier to pull off than using musical instruments.  With singing, you have everything you need right there with no preparation.  With instruments, you need to have it built and have some kind of understanding of music prior to make it worth anything by itself.  

@#2: What makes you think that?  What makes adding vocals to music more complex than adding any arbitrary instrument to the mix?  I'll give you the answer:  It doesn't.  You aren't even defining what "complex" even is.  The reason why vocals weren't possible before but instruments were has a lot to do with the fact that voices aren't static.  They are dynamic.  Which also means that dynamic instruments also weren't possible with the older technology.  

@#3:  Just because you are incapable of understanding other forms of music, doesn't mean vocal music (one of the only things you seem to have at your 'disposal') is automatically the answer.  If you had done a research paper like this, you would fail.

@#4:  Saying it suggests is also jumping to a conclusion.  There's nothing about your argument that even remotely suggests anything of the sort.



Zod95 said:
forest-spirit said:

Sholdn't you also add modern computer utilising music like House to your evolution of music theory? It's clearly more evolved than instrumental and vocal music as it uses computermade sounds in addition to instruments and vocals. Electronic instruments should also be added in as music written with both electronic and accoustic instruments is more evolved than accoustic only. I'll leave it up to you to decide how to rank accoustic+electronic, accoustic+vocal and electronic+vocal because quite frankly I don't have a clue.

It's like my comments about MIDI. It's not easy to get consensus.

 

forest-spirit said:

As for complexity, music isn't necessarily more complex because you add more instruments and/or singers. A pop album isn't more complex than a piano concert by nature, it greatly depends on the composition. Many classical works are extremely complex despite not using vocals or computers. Also, merely adding instruments and vocals for the sake of it can destroy a composition and turn it into unbearable noise.

On what basis would you call it "extremely complex"? I'll leave it up to you to decide how to assess and rank complexity in music

 

forest-spirit said:

Your last paragraph about effort is flawed beyond repair. Just like vocal music isn't more complex by nature, it also doesn't require a bigger effort by nature. It all depends on the composition, and a seemingly simplistic piece of music could have a ton of work behind it. It's not a fact that vocal music requires more effort, far from it. You're also ignoring the fact that you don't just write a bunch of music and add it to a game. You write music for the game, just like you do with films, not the other way around. It's quite possible that vocals just doesn't fit, and the choice of not using vocal music has more to do with the script, the mood, the setting, levels etc, then it has to do with the willingness of making music with vocals. Look at films, many masterpieces use instrumental music only because it fits ,not because the makers didn't want to make that much effort. Imagine replacing the soundtrack of Schindler's List with vocal music only. It would destroy it.

Sure it's not a fact, it's a hint ("it only suggests..."). And you're right when you say music is made for games but games aren't made for music (except Guitar Hero and alikes) and that vocal music may just not fit into a specific game. I see that happening essentially on movies / games with heavy environments like Schindler's List and Getaway. But Mario and Sonic are totally different. If Sonic could evolve into an environment of vocal music, I'm not seeing any reason for Mario to have not done the same.


How music has evolved or changed throughout the ages isn't as simple as "it began with instrumental and evolved into vocal".

  • It's really hard to tell if the history of music started with humans using their voices or using basic instruments. As far as I know no evidence exists that proves that one predates the other. If you're going to use your theory that instrumental music evolved into vocal music you'll have to provide proof to ack it up. Also, there's the possibility that some groups of people started with instruments while others used their voices first, making the whole argument rather pointless.
  • Regardless of which one came first, humans began using both in the prehistoric era and since then music has evolved a lot. The evolution of music did not stop once both instrumental and vocal music had been "invented". New instruments were created paving the way for new genres and new ways to create music. Music were used for recreational and religious purposes but was also used in dance, warfare, in storytelling, to calm children etc. Eventually a system was created so that musicians could write down the music on paper. Humans used music in theatre, they created musicals, symphonies, operas etc. I could go on but the picture should be clear by now. Music has evolved a lot since the days of the prehistoric man.

 

I'm opposed to the idea that "more evolved" music requires more effort and is more complex by default. Therefore I'm opposed to the idea that you can rank different types of music and thus I won't do that. Rock evolved from Blues, Jazz and a few other genres, and rock eventually evolved into metal music. Does that mean that Metal is more complex and requires more effort than Rock? Does Rock require more effort and is it more complex than Blues? Are all of them more complex and do they all require more effort than classical music? No, it doesn't work that way. Now, they could require more effort but it could also be the other way around. It all depends on the composition. You can make very complex music using only a piano. You can also make very basic music on a piano. Likewise you can make complex or basic music using a singer, a drummer and a guitarist. But there's no rule saying that one is more complex than the other by nature, and if such a rule exists I'd like someone to present it to me.

 

 

With this in mind I fail to see how one could claim that the music in Mario would be less evolved than the music used Sonic due to the use of vocals in Sonic's soundtrack. You could provide evidence showing that instrumental music is older (something you have failed to do) but even if you did it wouldn't have much meaning when you take the history of music in consideration. Likewise I also fail to see how one could claim that one or the other required more effort merely because of the inclusion of vocal music in Sonic's soundtrack. For that you'd have to find out how much money and time was spent on creating the music, and even then you'd have to ignore than some musicians can create more with less effort, and you'd also have to ignore the possibility that the use of instrumental-only or a mix between instrumental and vocal music simply was a design choice. In fact, that possibility makes the whole argument rather pointless in my honest opinion.



forest-spirit said:


How music has evolved or changed throughout the ages isn't as simple as "it began with instrumental and evolved into vocal".

  • It's really hard to tell if the history of music started with humans using their voices or using basic instruments. As far as I know no evidence exists that proves that one predates the other. If you're going to use your theory that instrumental music evolved into vocal music you'll have to provide proof to ack it up. Also, there's the possibility that some groups of people started with instruments while others used their voices first, making the whole argument rather pointless.

While this isn't evidence, this sort of illustrates my point that it makes more sense that vocals came first.
http://www2.lawrence.edu/fast/KOOPMAJO/antiquity.html



Basically Nintendo killed Nintendo with bad and even dirty 'dictator' businesses. No wonder why all 3rd parties migrated from SNES to PS1. I always wonder what happened there, only now I realized that was Nintendo bad businesses that caused it, and not huges paychecks from Sony.

They tried to get a monopoly out of it, and ended up being last. Yet, I disagree with the gamer debt. Unlike Sony or Microsoft who can get their money out from other businesses to invest in gaming, Nintendo can't. So they need to make always profit, no matter what, they're a gaming industry only. Maybe they should just start making games for other consoles, and let their own console die ~ Even if I believe, Nintendo will be the only one to release a 'next-gen' console. I'm not seeing Sony neither Microsoft doing another console !



Pibituh said:
Basically Nintendo killed Nintendo with bad and even dirty 'dictator' businesses. No wonder why all 3rd parties migrated from SNES to PS1. I always wonder what happened there, only now I realized that was Nintendo bad businesses that caused it, and not huges paychecks from Sony.

They tried to get a monopoly out of it, and ended up being last. Yet, I disagree with the gamer debt. Unlike Sony or Microsoft who can get their money out from other businesses to invest in gaming, Nintendo can't. So they need to make always profit, no matter what, they're a gaming industry only. Maybe they should just start making games for other consoles, and let their own console die ~ Even if I believe, Nintendo will be the only one to release a 'next-gen' console. I'm not seeing Sony neither Microsoft doing another console !


Nintendo killed Nintendo is a simple yet accurate way to describe many of their failures and mishaps.

Nintendo's way of handling 3rd parties during the NES and SNES generations most certainly didn't help in the N64/PSX era. And to make matters worse Nintendo's console was the last one to hit the market, it used cartridges (whoever thought that was a good idea is an idiot) and focused way too much on 3D in a time when many games still relied on 2D technology. As much as I loved the N64 it was a tremendous failure for Nintendo and they're still paying the price for it.