The truth about Nintendo

[sundin13]

Zod95 said:

sundin13 said:

a. Definition of Evolution:

I've already told you that the way you are thinking about evolution is wrong and explained myself. You are saying the way that I am thinking about it is "wrong" or "different" but I am thinking about it in the context in which the word was designed to be used (the scientific sense). In this sense, what you are saying is evolution is wrong.

Because of this, you need to present your own definition of "evolution". Gathering from what you have said already, it is not just about time ("Evolution is not only about time. Vocal music is instrumental + voice. Instrumental-only is...well, I think it's obvious."). By this you mean to say that because vocal music has instrumentals, it is more "evolved". However! Vocals are essentially only an instrument. I think most people involved in music would say that vocals are no easier or harder than playing an instrument and holding them at a higher level than instruments is making a value judgement.

By this rule, all instruments (including voice) are equal, so would you not say that the more instruments something has the more "evolved" it is? Would this not match your definition of evolution perfectly and more objectively that assigning a value judgement to vocals? Therefore, symphonic music, which nintendo uses and has used for quite some time, meaning, arguably, using your definition of the word, symphonic music is the most evolved form of video game music and Nintendo evolved faster and further than most video games?

I agree, voice is just another instrument. But then I answer you what I've said already to MDM:

"If you are able to count the number of instruments used to create the soundtrack in Mario 64 and the same number regarding Sonic Adventure 1, then feel free to post them here. I can't and therefore vocal music is one of the few indicators I have at disposal."

 

sundin13 said:

b. Technological Limitation vs the Industry Standard:

Okay, I see what you are saying here. So lets go down to your final point where you show me a few examples of early games featuring music including vocals.

First, I would like to talk about Licenced Soundtracks. Your point here is counterproductive. You speak of the "effort" taken to create something and then you praise when a game company simply buys songs released by musicians elsewhere? This is highly contradictory and from an objective standpoint, it takes infinitely more effort to create a song than it does to pay to use a song someone else has already created. 

I would like to see some more examples featuring original music to prove to me when it became the "industry standard"...

Additionally, I would like to talk about Nintendo for a moment. Between 2002-2003, Nintendo released both F-Zero GX and Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker, which both featured original vocal performances (choir in WW, lyrics in F-Zero) around the time where you claimed it was becoming the industry standard...

It's not contradictory. You use money instead of effort, which is also a sign of commitment. In the end, everything falls into one of the 3 variables I have been presenting: effort, time and money. They don't mean quality, but they mean commitment to quality.

Note that Sonic Adventure has an exclusive soundtrack, so it was not just about licensing music, they hired bands to produce tailored music tracks to game levels and characters. Nintendo did the same with Mario Galaxy, or do you think they created an entire orchestra by themselves and that now it's part of their studios?

Original music hasn't become the standard (vocal music has). Yet, more examples of games with original vocal music: Sonic R (1997), Sonic Adventure 2 (2001), TrackMania Sunrise (2005), Crashday (2006), TrackMania 2 (2011).

WipEout (1995) has also original vocal performances, but they are very limited. How are they on F-Zero GX and Zelda Wind Waker?

 

sundin13 said:

c. Which took more effort?:

Unfortunately I am unable to listen to these at the moment but I will say that it is impossible to determine effort by listening to something objectively... I will get back to this question later today if you wish me too

Sure. Take the time you need.

a. So you are admitting to using a flawed metric that in essence, says absolutely nothing about anything. Good, I'm glad we are on the same page and agree that you are just making things up because its convenient. 

Also, as such you are admitting that games like Mario galaxy (feature a 50 piece orchestra) are among the most "evolved" of all video game music, and certainly more evolved than licenced soundtracks. 

b. Once again, I laugh at the fact that you assume that in any way, licenced soundtracks are greater (note: I didn't say superior) than original soundtracks. Original soundtracks take a large amount of effort and time and money whereas licenced soundtracks only really take money. I think by your own metrics, we can agree that original soundtracks are greater than licenced in two out of three or your categories, with the third being inconclusive without knowing specific figures which are verifiably impossible to attain. 

You say that Sonic Adventure used an original soundtrack, but one game franchise does not an industry standard make. Other people have already posted examples of Nintendo using vocals in their songs all the way back in the SNES era. (your snide comment about Nintendo buying an orchestra is not appreciated by the way). I would also like to add that Nintendo composed all of the music in the Super Mario Galaxy series, they didn't simply hand it off to an orchestra and tell them to write music...

Additionally, it seems to me from the examples you posted that "vocal music" became the "industry standard" in the mid 2000s and as I have already pointed out, Nintendo implemented vocals in their music long before then and they certainly didn't follow anybody.

Also, you are equating Sonic and Mario in some of your quotes and saying that they are the same type of game but I would disagree. Sonic tries to be "cool" (see: Shadow the Hedgehog) and as such implements cheezy rock soundtracks into their games while Mario games tend to be more whimsical and as such impliment a very different style of music (fun fact: Super Mario Galaxy was originally going to have a latin inspired soundtrack, however after completing 28 tracks, it was decided that it just didn't fit the feel of the game. As such, the music was changed to orchestral compositions). You said that you fail to see why Nintendo didn't follow in SEGA's footsteps with the mario games and I think that is pretty clear by the reception the soundtracks from mario games tend to receive (IGN gave Mario Galaxy a Perfect 10 in Audio). 

Finally, Wind Waker uses a choir in many of the songs on its soundtrack while F-Zero uses lyrics for the character introductions (and possibly more, I don't remember)...

EDIT: After listening to a few songs from the soundtracks you suggested to me earlier I can objectively say that I cannot objectively say which required more effort. In my opinion, they are all well suited to their respective games and using one soundtrack style for the other game would negatively impact the game as a whole (my opinion of course).

I still don't know where you get off judging "effort" just by listening to something. There is a lot that goes into music. I'll tell you, as a musician, some of my best songs I composed over the course of an afternoon (or even during improvisation) while others which I think are worse I spent weeks and weeks on.