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Final-Fan on 19 February 2008
LordTheNightKnight said:
And Capcom may have stated being weary about the Wii once, but that is no longer valid. Capcom has actually credited the Wii for their increasing profits in the past six months.

Capcom also made most of their big HD games multi-platform. Wouldn't that show weariness about the HD systems?
I'm pretty sure you mean "wary".

Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

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Smash_Brother on 19 February 2008
Final-Fan said:
If you PERSONALLY hate almost every single PS2 game in existence, that does NOT mean that all those games can objectively be called "utter garbage".

Games or any other creative medium cannot be qualified objectively, only subjectively.

Don't take it personally. I readily acknowledge that I'm the minority in this opinion, but unless someone wants to buy me a new PS2 and all of the games they think I should try, my opinion will not change.

That said, I acknowledge that most Wii games are also garbage. In fact, most games in general are garbage, but this is the nature of any market where creative output is a factor in product development. 



"I mean, c'mon, Viva Pinata, a game with massive marketing, didn't sell worth a damn to the "sophisticated" 360 audience, despite near-universal praise--is that a sign that 360 owners are a bunch of casual ignoramuses that can't get their heads around a 'gardening' sim? Of course not. So let's please stop trying to micro-analyze one game out of hundreds and using it as the poster child for why good, non-1st party, games can't sell on Wii. (Everyone frequenting this site knows this is nonsense, and yet some of you just can't let it go because it's the only scab you have left to pick at after all your other "Wii will phail1!!1" straw men arguments have been put to the torch.)" - exindguy on Boom Blocks

LordTheNightKnight on 19 February 2008

The point is that we are debunking the Wii's supposed shovelware problem. How you feel about a game is not the same as being shovelware, or else you invite the other side to cheat by expanding the definition as well.

So it is important to make it clear that 98% of PS2 games do not appeal to you personally, but that the percentage of generally acclaimed games still is outnumbered by shovelware.

It's a minor point, but it leaves less room for others to twist your words.



A flashy-first game is awesome when it comes out. A great-first game is awesome forever.

Plus, just for the hell of it: Kelly Brook at the 2008 BAFTAs

Final-Fan on 19 February 2008
Smash_Brother said:
Final-Fan said:
If you PERSONALLY hate almost every single PS2 game in existence, that does NOT mean that all those games can objectively be called "utter garbage".
On the contrary. I've called them utter garbage many times and I was quite objective as I did so.

Don't take it personally. I readily acknowledge that I'm the minority in this opinion, but unless someone wants to buy me a new PS2 and all of the games they think I should try, my opinion will not change.

That said, I acknowledge that most Wii games are also garbage. In fact, most games in general are garbage, but this is the nature of any market where creative output is a factor in product development.
objective adj. 1 b: of, relating to, or being an object, phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers : having reality independent of the mind
3 a: expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations

Here, I am using "objective" to mean the CONSENSUS of hundreds (reviewers) or millions (gamers) of subjective opinions. After all, "objective" reality, the world we live in, is defined by consensus opinion. Those who disagree with the consensus are, in that case, insane.

You are free to have the opinion that you do of PS2 games; neither I nor any sensible person will try to deny you that. But when you attempt to use your PERSONAL dislike of all those games to base an argument on that attempts to make a statement pertaining to ALL gamers, your argument fails! Basically, you're making arguments based on a statistical sample of one person -- you. That's fine if we're talking about YOU, but we're talking about the whole market, the whole industry, and that's why your statement can't (yes, can't) be both objective and accurate.

Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Username2324 on 19 February 2008
Summaro400ex said:
I've noticed the official Nintendo Seal of Quality is misssing... Maybe they have eased up on their standards

 They replaced it with Krusty's stamp of approval.



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tastyshovelware on 19 February 2008
Smash_Brother said:

Don't take it personally. I readily acknowledge that I'm the minority in this opinion, but unless someone wants to buy me a new PS2 and all of the games they think I should try, my opinion will not change.


 I guess I better start saving....



Smash_Brother on 19 February 2008
Final-Fan said:
Here, I am using "objective" to mean the CONSENSUS of hundreds (reviewers) or millions (gamers) of subjective opinions. After all, "objective" reality, the world we live in, is defined by consensus opinion. Those who disagree with the consensus are, in that case, insane. 

Millions of people love country music.

Millions of people watch American Idol.

Millions of people give a crap about what Britney Spears is up to.

The aforementioned millions would happily consider me insane for not sharing in their tastes, but I will not bend to their whims and admit insanity so that they can feel better about their opinions and I will likewise not do so for PS2 lovers, either.

On the topic, the TC has yet to give anything even resembling a logical argument regarding why Nintendo is to blame for shovelware. 



"I mean, c'mon, Viva Pinata, a game with massive marketing, didn't sell worth a damn to the "sophisticated" 360 audience, despite near-universal praise--is that a sign that 360 owners are a bunch of casual ignoramuses that can't get their heads around a 'gardening' sim? Of course not. So let's please stop trying to micro-analyze one game out of hundreds and using it as the poster child for why good, non-1st party, games can't sell on Wii. (Everyone frequenting this site knows this is nonsense, and yet some of you just can't let it go because it's the only scab you have left to pick at after all your other "Wii will phail1!!1" straw men arguments have been put to the torch.)" - exindguy on Boom Blocks

LordTheNightKnight on 19 February 2008
tastyshovelware said:
Smash_Brother said:

Don't take it personally. I readily acknowledge that I'm the minority in this opinion, but unless someone wants to buy me a new PS2 and all of the games they think I should try, my opinion will not change.


I guess I better start saving....


Maybe it would also help if he told us what games he DID like, not just state he hates one genre, which is not even the largest on the system.



A flashy-first game is awesome when it comes out. A great-first game is awesome forever.

Plus, just for the hell of it: Kelly Brook at the 2008 BAFTAs

LordTheNightKnight on 19 February 2008
Smash_Brother said:
Final-Fan said:
Here, I am using "objective" to mean the CONSENSUS of hundreds (reviewers) or millions (gamers) of subjective opinions. After all, "objective" reality, the world we live in, is defined by consensus opinion. Those who disagree with the consensus are, in that case, insane.

Millions of people love country music.

Millions of people watch American Idol.

Millions of people give a crap about what Britney Spears is up to.

The aforementioned millions would happily consider me insane for not sharing in their tastes, but I will not bend to their whims and admit insanity so that they can feel better about their opinions and I will likewise not do so for PS2 lovers, either.

On the topic, the TC has yet to give anything even resembling a logical argument regarding why Nintendo is to blame for shovelware.


The point of this IS about what a lot of people think. The point is to debunk the Wii and shovelware. Putting down the PS2's library is just derailing this, unless that is your point.



A flashy-first game is awesome when it comes out. A great-first game is awesome forever.

Plus, just for the hell of it: Kelly Brook at the 2008 BAFTAs

Final-Fan on 19 February 2008
Smash_Brother said:
Final-Fan said:
Smash_Brother said:
Final-Fan said:
If you PERSONALLY hate almost every single PS2 game in existence, that does NOT mean that all those games can objectively be called "utter garbage".
On the contrary. I've called them utter garbage many times and I was quite objective as I did so.

Don't take it personally. I readily acknowledge that I'm the minority in this opinion, but unless someone wants to buy me a new PS2 and all of the games they think I should try, my opinion will not change.

That said, I acknowledge that most Wii games are also garbage. In fact, most games in general are garbage, but this is the nature of any market where creative output is a factor in product development.
objective adj. 1 b: of, relating to, or being an object, phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers : having reality independent of the mind
3 a: expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations

Here, I am using "objective" to mean the CONSENSUS of hundreds (reviewers) or millions (gamers) of subjective opinions. After all, "objective" reality, the world we live in, is defined by consensus opinion. Those who disagree with the consensus are, in that case, insane.

You are free to have the opinion that you do of PS2 games; neither I nor any sensible person will try to deny you that. But when you attempt to use your PERSONAL dislike of all those games to base an argument on that attempts to make a statement pertaining to ALL gamers, your argument fails! Basically, you're making arguments based on a statistical sample of one person -- you. That's fine if we're talking about YOU, but we're talking about the whole market, the whole industry, and that's why your statement can't (yes, can't) be both objective and accurate.
Millions of people love country music.

Millions of people watch American Idol.

Millions of people give a crap about what Britney Spears is up to.

The aforementioned millions would happily consider me insane for not sharing in their tastes, but I will not bend to their whims and admit insanity so that they can feel better about their opinions and I will likewise not do so for PS2 lovers, either.

On the topic, the TC has yet to give anything even resembling a logical argument regarding why Nintendo is to blame for shovelware.
Sigh. You're taking a fish out of water and asking why it dies.

I hate country music too. If you were to put me down in the middle of a *Google search* Toby Keith concert, I would be completely out of place, a lone dissenting opinion among thousands -- "insane". One of those country fans would, I suppose, be "insane" at a KISS concert. This so completely misses my point that I can't help but wonder if it's deliberate. You are taking a sample consisting of one person (who hates almost every PS2 game in existence) and using it in arguments as if it is representative of the market as a whole. This is wrong. It is wrong because the market loved the PS2 and its games. Your "counterexamples", if I can even call them that, are meaningless because you are taking one subset of Americans and applying its appetites to a member of another subset of Americans and saying "so different LOL". (Admittedly the second subset is the subset with good taste .) I'm sure you would get a lot more people agreeing that at least 98% of PS2 games are not worth their time if you went and asked the Amish.

I tried very carefully, by the way, to word my post in such a way that made it very clear that I was not trying to say or imply that you were insane. Apparently you took offense anyway.

No one is trying to deny you your opinion or say it is not legitimate, which you ought to know if you actually read my entire post. However, arguments about the quality of (for instance) PS2 games IN THE CONTEXT OF the market as a whole based on your personal opinion are obviously worthless because your opinion is so wildly unrepresentative of that market and the GENERAL opinions of the members of that market as a whole.  (I'd sympathize with wanting to go by reviewer consensus rather than the unwashed masses but you're so far from either group that it hardly matters.)

Regarding your final sentence: Yes. Which is why I thought we should throw out the unsupported arguments (literally 98% of PS2 games are complete garbage) in favor of well-supported arguments (which are legion).

Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom!